Support for Indie Authors discussion

I thought about mentioning this in the thread "Candid v Polite" but considered that though related, it might be drifting a little of topic. So, a new thread.

Problem: As an indie author, I think that we might surround ourself with "encouraging" support. Let's face it, those that love us will most likely love that we are writing.

They might be "too nice" to really criticise the book.

In education we called this, "shredding."
It can be very difficult and painful.

My first proofreaders are always my mother and my wife.

They simply don't have sharp enough claws to shred.

Does anyone have a technique to initiate and encourage shredding of your work?


Example of "shredding" failure.



CONTAINS SPOILER for Robots Like Blue

Readers of "Robots Like Blue" will recognise that I was quite brutal with the children in the book.

They were used as pawns in service of the storyline. I killed their father at the start of the book and killed their mother at the end, leaving them orphans.

My mother told me that she wanted to know that the "children were alright."

I finished my book with them camping somewhere close to the main character (with a responsible parent). They were possibly unaware that their mother is dead. I closed the story with little more than an intention of the characters to locate them.

I dismissed much of my mothers objection. Now I am receiving feedback saying my story finished abruptly and people want to know what became of the children.

My mother was "too nice" in accepting of my blindness to this issue.

Anthony wrote: "I thought about mentioning this in the thread "Candid v Polite" but considered that though related, it might be drifting a little of topic. So, a new thread.

Problem: As an indie author, I think..."

PS. I am not blaming my mother for MY mistake. I just think that we have to encourage and listen to painful criticisms.

Anthony wrote: "I thought about mentioning this in the thread "Candid v Polite" but considered that though related, it might be drifting a little of topic. So, a new thread.

Problem: As an indie author, I think..."

Well, there are two ways to manage this: first way is to never use anyone whom you are affiliated with closely to proofread your work. The second way is to tell people who are your friends and family not to proofread your work, but to find things wrong with it. The biggest problem with the second one is afterwards, if you try and justify why you did X, Y, or Z, even if it is a valid reason, you may put off your proofreaders because they feel they've offended you.

I find it's very difficult to line up beta readers who are this kind of honest. I have experienced some shredding of my published works as a result. I even reblogged one of my shredder's reviews. If they have put forth the sincere effort to read my stories, I'm happy to hear their opinions no matter how negative. I want to write better and hopefully in time the advice I receive will lead me down that path.

We all need to have our work shredded - it's the best way for us to improve. It's painful to do, it's painful to hear.

April

Idav wrote: "The second way is to tell people who are your friends and family not to proofread your work, but to find things wrong with it. "

Idav, I really like this advice. I'm going to use it next time with some beta readers.

April

Friends and family are unreliable for this.

You either need to (as has already been mentioned) find blind beta readers, shell out the bucks for pro editors, or--not already mentioned--look into online writers workshops such as www.critters.org (they take a lot of time and effort but can be well worth it).

With beta readers I think you need to train them with specific instructions. What those instructions are depends on what you want help with.

The issue with the ending of your story sounds like a developmental or substantive editor thing. Although developmental editors are usually involved before and during writing, not afterward.

However, when most people hand off a text to beta readers, what they typically get is copyediting and proofreading: looking for misspelling, punctuation and grammar issues, misused words, confusing or poor sentence structure. Even here beta readers can be too soft.

If you want substantive editing, then you'll need to instruct your testers what to pay attention to, what to make suggestions on. Tell them to not worry so much about all the copyediting and proofreading stuff. That should come after substantive editing.

Be specific. Train them. Reward them (somehow).

When I am not editing other people's stuff, my first line editor (second set of eyes) is my brother-in-law. He is both a combat veteran of the U.S Army, a science fiction fan, and has a degree in journalism. He makes a perfect first line editor for me, as I write about military sci-fi/action and adventure.

I write a new chapter, send it to him, and then I correct the mark-ups. The is the very first beta reader/editor I would employ for my own stuff. I get as many beta readers as will read it along the way and do many edits along the way.

April wrote: "Idav wrote: "The second way is to tell people who are your friends and family not to proofread your work, but to find things wrong with it. "

Idav, I really like this advice. I'm going to use it n..."

You're welcome!

V.M. wrote: "One other thing I personally offer anyone I Beta Read for is the Play-By-Play wherein I detail my thoughts and reactions to the story as I have them. This allows them to chart the journey the reader is having as it happens..."

I think this is the about the best thing one can get from beta readers. The homogenized opinion someone produces after reading a work, loses a lot, and maybe not pinpoint things well enough. If you can see where people are reacting and how, it great.

It is important, I feel to supply beta readers with a solid idea of what you are looking for. But it's also important not to tale their feedback as gospel. Blind betas may give a more forthright opinion than family and friends, but it's still an opinion.

For us, we use beta readers only for two things: spotting plot inconsistencies (major holes and logical conflicts) and clarity of the structure (organizing the chapters so readers don't get hopelessly lost).

For issues like: "We want to more about this" or "What became of so-&-so?" or "That was abrupt" we'll take an interesting idea if one is presented, but if things are "abrupt" or "unsatisfying", that's a non-issue to us. We don't massage our books to reader's tastes or expectations, although we do throw them a bone, now and again.

Yeah, well considered, Owen. A blow-by-blow look at someone's reaction to the book would be interesting, but it's only one data point. We must be careful not to overinflate the opinions of a small number of people.

It would be hard to place the proper level of importance on that fine a detail if I don't know what the blow-by-blow reader normally reads or likes--or even how they were feeling and what else was going on in their life at their time of reading!

For example, my blow-by-blow review of watching the movie Fargo would probably have been extremely negative. I don't know if it would be now, but you see I watched it immediately after seeing Reservoir Dogs for the first time. I was so tense and edgy after all that nasty blood-n-guts-n-foul language that I had already been totally saturated. Knowing only Raising Arizona by the Coen brothers, I was expecting more of a dry comedy...It was all too much for me!

Context can really taint experience. And we do need to be careful about how much faith we put in the opinions of readers.

Micah wrote: "Yeah, well considered, Owen. A blow-by-blow look at someone's reaction to the book would be interesting, but it's only one data point. We must be careful not to overinflate the opinions of a small ..."

That's always true of any data, of course. (There is this joke at my: what's the use of 2 data points? Twice as good as 1 data point.)

The only point here is that it give you more of a "writers group" type feedback, which is a nice thing to have if you don't have a writers group. We've had 3 beta readers who were willing to do this, and that's not a lot, but we have found it helpful, especially in that it's allowed us to catch things the beta readers didn't know was a problem, but they had a reaction to, and that reaction told us we'd forgotten something. (We have about a dozen beta readers, overall.)

And I'll clarify that while it's nice to get people's "emotional" reactions as they read, that's not the feedback we pay much attention to.

Owen wrote: "There is this joke at my: what's the use of 2 data points? Twice as good as 1 data point."

Do you mind if I steal your joke and then use it for my webcomic?

Ultimately, you will at some point have enter that vulnerable public place to put it all out there and publish. Solicit reviews. Tighten it up with what you may find lacking. Publish second edition, repeat process two more times. Write another book.

Idav wrote: "Owen wrote: "There is this joke at my: what's the use of 2 data points? Twice as good as 1 data point."

Do you mind if I steal your joke and then use it for my webcomic?"

Go for it! :-)

Anthony wrote: "I thought about mentioning this in the thread "Candid v Polite" but considered that though related, it might be drifting a little of topic. So, a new thread.

Problem: As an indie author, I think..."

I'll add one more thought to the "shredding" question. Undergoing this process can be valuable (and painful), the critical thing is to maintain perspective. There is no "right" or "wrong" about story-telling -- it's ain't physics. This process is only valuable to the extant that it helps you, the author, do what you want to do.

So the most important thing is knowing what you want to do. Feedback can shake our faith in that -- that's the trap here. Without meaning to, beta reviews (and reviews) can move our goal posts. This is not good.

Before you engage beta readers, put hard stakes down that fix what you want and what you're trying to achieve. And tie yourself to them. Otherwise the chances you'll end up going in circles is all to great.

I must admit, I've done a review swap with several authors on GR and 'shredded' their books in hope that it would help strengthen their writing, rather than write a 2-3 star review. I've given reasons and examples of passages and sentences that just don't jell for me. An unfortunate consequence of this is that none of them have actually then reviewed my writing. It's honestly not that I expected them to, but it would have been nice for them to return the favour.
Admittedly, most of us are very busy. I'm still earning a small income from my 'day job' type work, hanging out with my kids, and working on other writing projects.
When I send my writing to beta reader friends I also send a short list of questions for them to answer. At least that gives some guideline to tear apart my writing - which, from my perspective, is always a good thing.

Interesting conversation so far. I've not jumped in because I'm learning that I'm rather lucky in that I have alpha readers who are willing to shred as the story is written. Mine also happen to be family who have no qualms about telling it like it is, even if that means offending me. Once they're done, I take into consideration their ideas and send it off to my betas. I guess because of my first wave, I've never really expected my betas to be pulling punches.

I got lucky with a few betas I randomly found here on GR and they shredded quite a bit. Only one found my internal logic out there but the others were helpful and I was able to get through development edits done smoothly. As for having a go to ... I have no budget for that. I just hope a few I find on a random call are decent and send a letter what I'm looking for.

I can't rely on family. Mother won't read what I have and sister hates everything I have.

I don't want to shred anyone's work. I want to tell them how to make it better, not why it sucks.

Charles wrote: "I don't want to shred anyone's work. I want to tell them how to make it better, not why it sucks."

I can't like this enough, honestly, and I think this is what most people miss: you learn more by getting positive enforcement, rather than being crushed to the ground. And positive reinforcement does not mean being someone who don't point out what's wrong; on the contrary, you definitely do, but you say it in a way that makes people feel good about their text becoming better.

I was so drunk when I wrote that.

Charles wrote: "I was so drunk when I wrote that."

Audience: "HOW DRUNK WERE YOU?"

Micah wrote: ""HOW DRUNK WERE YOU?""

So drunk that there was nothing left of me in the glass.

Thanks all.

I should add that I am largely very pleased with my book and it is rating well, especially on Amazon.com.
One should be careful about criticising their own product (e.g. Ratners).

However, it is a mistake that I have made and now regret.


Owen wrote: "...I'll add one more thought to the "shredding" question. Undergoing this process can be valuable (and painful), the critical thing is to maintain perspective. There is no "right" or "wrong" about story-telling -- it's ain't physics. This process is only valuable to the extant that it helps you, the author, do what you want to do."

As often, Owen, you provide an alternative view, which often comes across as "Don't sweat it!"

Sage advice.

Thanks.

Ben wrote: "I must admit, I've done a review swap with several authors on GR and 'shredded' their books in hope that it would help strengthen their writing, rather than write a 2-3 star review. I've given reas..."

Some (myself included) think that reviews swaps are a bad idea, because one can't help but be influenced by the other reviewer's feedback. I know that I would be. I think this is a problem, so I never do review swaps. I'm in one group that makes everyone pledge not to do reciprocal reviews, because they can undermine objectivity.

But I do read other writers' books and send them feedback privately.

April

Dwayne wrote: "Micah wrote: ""HOW DRUNK WERE YOU?""

So drunk that there was nothing left of me in the glass."

If that line doesn't end up in one of your stories, I'm going to be disappointed.

That sounds suspiciously like a Hemingway or Vonegut quote.