Classical Literature Read-Along discussion

Let's chat about some of Euripides' tragedies ^_^ namely The Bacchae.

I read Bacchae. Woo. I used the Oxford World's Classics edition and it had notes in it from James Morwood. I really enjoyed his notes it added that extra knowledge for the text.

Looking forward to staring it when I get all my work done!!

As today in Australia is the first, i just started reading it. My copy is the Uni Chicago Press 3rd edition.

Opening thoughts:
1) The over aching theme of the play is the conflict between the wild nature of man (the irrational) represented by Dionysus and the orderly nature of man (the rational) which is usually thought of as being Apollo, who is not a character in the play.

2) from a BBC documentary series on Greek drama the presenter Dr Michael Scott showed how integral drama was to the Greek democracy. The impression I get is that the tragedians were like political journalists of the era. So what is the major event in Athens during the time the play was written? The war against Sparta ended in 404 BCE however Euripides died in 406 BCE a few years before in Macedon with the play being performed in 405 BCE. My hunch is that the play is a commentary about how badly the war against Sparta was going for the Athenians with the Spartans symbolically represented by Dionysus.

3) The theme of the play could also be a character study on fame. This occurred to me yesterday. My idea is that Euripides was an enormously popular tragedian and exiled himself to the “safety” of Macedon, yet the play is about Dionysus establishing his cult (i.e. fame) in Thebes. Euripides ran away from fame, and Dionysus is bringing his fame into Thebes.

Well back to reading it.

So excited to read my favourite play by Euripides. I'm reading it in Greek though, but I presume the story is the same ;p. Happy reading to everyone!

Starting tonight. Excited to read another play with a chorus. It has definitely been awhile.

I found the play performed on Youtube. I thought some people might like it, and get a different perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfjMJ...

One thing a reader unfamiliar with Euripides' work can overlook about "The Bacchae" is how different his use of the choral odes is when compared to how he uses them in the rest of his surviving plays. Here they are long and elaborate, a throw back to a time closer to Aeschylus (although his use of imagery is nowhere near as complex). It seems to say, "This is important."

I would not necessarily consider the struggle in the play to be between rationality and irrationality since Pentheus is hardly rational most of the time and Dionysus is not always irrational (although he's closer to something primordial than Pentheus is to being an emblem of reason). Pentheus doesn't "know himself" in our modern meaning of the term (how the ancients would have understand that line I am not sure) and tries to repress the anarchic while Dionysus releases it - both extremes destroy any semblance of order and society.

In the original Greek the word 'luo' - a motif throughout "The Bacchae" - means both to unbind and to destroy. Dionysus' power is thus dual - liberatory of civilization's shackles (thus attracting primarily women) but also capable of bring its safeguards violently to an end.

Pentheus is interesting. His rage arises to a certain extent out of his prurience. He is afraid (wrongly, it appears) that his fantasies are being enacted by the cult and he wants to deny them since - in a more secretive sense - he also wants to participate in them. I found his disgust with the religious opportunism and conformism of Teiresias and Cadmus easy to sympathize with. Despite, with his violent overreaction, being clearly in the wrong his fear of Dionysus has more than a little bit of sense to it; explaining why I, for one, could feel a certain degree of sympathy for him even before catastrophe.

I've never read a Greek play before, and quite unfamiliar with plays overall, so this month will be exciting and hopefully open doors for my reading in the future! My goal is to read the Bacchae slowly and carefully. If I don't get to Frogs, I can save it for January. Everyone's input is hugely appreciated as I read a new and intimidating genre!

I've never read a Greek play before, and quite unfamiliar with plays overall, so this month will be exciting and hopefully open doors for my reading in the future! My goal is to read the Bacchae slowly and carefully. If I don't get to Frogs, I can save it for January. Everyone's input is hugely appreciated as I read a new and intimidating genre!

Just started with The Bacchae tonight. I chose the new translation by Robin Robertson, anyone else reading the same version?

I'm reading the Robin Robertson edition, it was the only one my local bookshop had in stock.

I recommend you to watch (for a few minutes) the (professional) performance at the Ancient Theatre of Epidavros. It's in Greek but you will see how it is performed and how frenzied are those Bacchae and those who follow them and their ceremonies and orgies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6eiX...

I finished the James Morwood translation this morning, published by Oxford World's Press, and I thoroughly enjoyed it - I'd rate it 4 stars for now!

I'll have to take some time to collect my thoughts on it, but it's been great reading all your takes on it so far - and I'll definitely be checking out some of those YouTube links, as at some parts of the play I was really intrigued as to how they would stage it!

I have not read any Greek plays before or anything Greek apart from handful of Plato's dialogues. I am sure this is going to be a new experience in reading altogether.

I visited a bookstore earlier today and I found a 'bilingual' version (Ancient Greek, Modern Greek) of Euripides' Bacchae. I wasn't able to resist, so I bought it! It also has extensive notes and commentary.

I used the James Morwood translation and finished it yesterday. It's been a while (years...) since I last read a play but I really enjoyed The Bacchae. What did you guys think of the depiction of the women in the play? It thought that in the beginning they were barely present, only spoken about and in the end became an important tool of the men. They do not have much agency of their own. And btw, I look forward to checking out the youtube links

Hey, just finished it! My first Greek tragedy and I read the Oxford World's Classics edition. I was really grateful for the notes.
It was interesting reading this as a play, since most of the action takes place off screen, with expositional dialogue telling the audience what happened. This didn't hinder the excitement or shock of what happened, but I will be very interested to see those youtube links on how it would have been performed.
I agree with Jasmin about the women, they didn't have much agency of their own. I suppose one could make the argument that Bacchus was allowing them to live an unconventional life away from Thebes and giving them freedom that they wouldn't have otherwise had, but the fact that they were in some sort of trance makes that argument fall flat.
I did enjoy reading this, but I probably won't be reading Frogs, mainly cause I don't have the time. I will eagerly follow the discussion though!

Claude wrote: "It was interesting reading this as a play, since most of the action takes place off screen..."
Just a brief note on what you said. The off-stage action is a main technique for Ancient Greek Tragedies. Most of them have their off-stage action mainly because there were limits back then on how to stage an action scene and depict it realistically, so they kept it off-staged.

Kyriakos wrote: "Claude wrote: "It was interesting reading this as a play, since most of the action takes place off screen..."
Just a brief note on what you said. The off-stage action is a main technique for Ancien..."

I thought that was the case! Thanks for clarifying!

I don't think the play is about emotion vs. rationality, as people have pointed out Pentheus isn't alway rational. But I would say that this play might be about the dangers of denying your emotions. Trying to control them so much that finally they explode and everyone go mad. That might be one of the reasons that The Bacchae are all women, since women were seen as more emotional (as in less rational).

Claude wrote: "I thought that was the case! Thanks for clarifying! "

You're welcome! :)

A short talk about the different themes in the play, warning: spoilers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPuMB...

I would agree about what people are saying regarding the agency of women in this play. They were leading an unconventional, scandalous life that was looked down upon by men. I suppose in some ways it could be looked at as feministic because women are revelling against the status quo and doing their own thing, against the wishes of men... but at the same time Bacchus is using his influence to make women do what he wants and provoke this response. I dunno, it's a bit of a weird one!

I totally agree with the comments above about the part played by women in Bacchae - it had me confused and it is definitely the first thing I thought about upon finishing the play. I agree with Vanessa, that in one way women were "given" a freer space, outside of the home, but at the same time (through Dionysus' manipulation) it was women (Agave and others) who paid a very high cost for living outside the bounds of established society (I don't want to say more because of spoilers). And ultimately, it was Dionysus who controlled the action of the women, so were they actually awarded freedom from the home? I am intrigued as to what Euripides was trying to say in this regard, because to me it feels like Agave paid a pretty high price.

Bazza wrote: "I found the play performed on Youtube. I thought some people might like it, and get a different perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfjMJ..."

Thanks for this! I have a theatrical background and I always find it interesting to see different interpretations of a text, and benefit from hearing it performed.

Agave & her sisters paid a very high price indeed, but it was for denying that the lover of their sister Semele was really Zeus. You don't question the ancestry of a god, especially in Euripides, & get off lightly. That's how tragedy works. The punishment for hamartia seems excessive & cruel, yet at the same time inevitable & right.

Lesserknowngems wrote: "I don't think the play is about emotion vs. rationality, as people have pointed out Pentheus isn't alway rational. But I would say that this play might be about the dangers of denying your emotions. Trying to control them so much that finally they explode and everyone go mad. That might be one of the reasons that The Bacchae are all women, since women were seen as more emotional (as in less rational)."

I suspect that Dionysus' focus on women (or should that be the women's focus on Dionysus?) is less about any belief in the lesser rationality of women than on the women's greater lack of societal freedom. The anomic vitality Pentheus is trying to repress in the women is the same energy that he's trying to repress in himself. I think seeing Pentheus as an exemplum on the dangers of denying one's emotions is very accurate to the experience of the play. But, interestingly, the play is also simultaneously an exemplum on the dangers of what happens when an individual or a community does *not* deny its emotions. The destructiveness of the Maenads is, to an extent, the opposite side of the coin.

Interestingly, Pentheus' worst fear, that of unbounded sexuality among the Maenads, seems to be a figment of Pentheus' imagination. Both Dionysus and Tiresias seems to suggest to Pentheus that under the god's spell chastity is not discouraged; it just can no longer be enforced. The anarchy of Dionysus does not become violent until Pentheus strikes at it. It maybe that - with the exception of the self-interested priesthood and some of the political elite - the men of Thebes, being more invested in the status quo, remain the ones less inclined to join the new cult.

Also, the Maenads aren't simply women, they're wild single women from Asia, which would really be an affront to standard male Athenian opinion. Most Athenian men thought wives & daughters should be total homebodies & many thought that Athenians married to foreign women ought to be required to divorce them. (That attitude also explains the reaction of conventional Athenian men to Euripides' Medea.) Euripides loved challenging conventional stereotypes & if I recall rightly, The Bacchae was his last play, sent back to be performed after Euripides abandoned Athens. For me that play really rocks. It also forms the basis for Donna Tartt's novel The Secret History.