Horror Aficionados discussion

The fiction I like best represents real life figuratively. The protagonist of Rivka Galchen's Atmospheric Disturbances, for example, suffers from a psychological condition called Capgras Syndrome, which leads him to believe that his wife has been replaced by an identical impostor. But really the book is an exploration of how marriages deteriorate in real life and the way a once-intimately-familiar spouse can, in time, seem to become a total stranger. Kafka's Metamorphosis —such a great "horror" story!—explores real-life loneliness and self-loathing by turning Gregor Samsa into a bug, something that's exactly as repulsive as real-life people like Gregor Samsa feel themselves to be. Even Hamlet, haunted by his father's ghost, gets at the way our parents' expectations and judgments linger in our psyches even after our parents themselves have died, or are simply not physically present.

Which is why horror can kick so much ass! I think Jeff Cohen is totally right in Monster Culture when he says that monsters very often represent our fears. I'm fascinated by the recent surge of zombie movies, tv shows, and books. I think zombie popularity might have a lot to do with the simultaneous rise of scientific understanding and religious doubt: if we're the sum product of our evolved genes, and not of God's will, then we ourselves are just roaming automatons. That's a terrifying prospect, and so is dying, especially if there's no God or heaven waiting for us on the other side. Zombies embody both of these fears: that we're just automata, and that decay, not heaven, is all that awaits us. Confronting zombies on screen or in a book is kind of like staring our fears right in the face. It's no wonder we get so much satisfaction out of seeing their heads get smashed in.

But that's just my theory. Very curious what others think.

There may be a lot to what you (or Jeff Cohen) has to say.

As a pagan, I know my deity is alive and well; spring has arrived and we are experiencing rebirth and renewal. I have no interest in zombie movies or fiction. So, in my case, no crisis of faith equals disbelief and lack of interest in zombie themes.

Hm never thought of it that way, if anything I see people calling Jesus the original zombie lol...I'm pretty much an atheist by now but horror has always been my favorite. Zombies are probably the last on my interest ladder of monsters etc. They're okay but it really depends on the book itself as well.

The whole fear talk makes me think of Dune as well -

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
― Frank Herbert, Dune

i always thought Zombies were metophors for total breakdown of society. The fear of disease. Even the fear of how close to savagery we humans our. Zombies show us in our worse light, unquestioning and violent. Mindless and ill.
Well thats my thought, hope i explained myself correctly :-)

Mindless, impulsive and legion.

Fear of the zombie is the fear of the majority.

The end of independent thought, as the many march to a single piper, without thinking, staring into their cell phones.

Thats part of what i was trying to say Jon, wow you explained it better though :-)

Mehmet wrote: "i always thought Zombies were metophors for total breakdown of society. The fear of disease. Even the fear of how close to savagery we humans our. Zombies show us in our worse light, unquestioning ..."

I've always considered them a metaphor for mindless consumerism. No matter how much stuff a person has they still always need more.

Touché Richard! That is an apt description of how we are, minus the gore. Although at Christmas time we do tend to fight like roman soldiers for that last toy of one kind....

Muah haha!

K4tie wrote: "Touché Richard! That is an apt description of how we are, minus the gore. Although at Christmas time we do tend to fight like roman soldiers for that last toy of one kind....

Muah haha!"

And also Black Friday.

Indeed, and... Super Bowl. But then for beer and snacks and not toys. Those are grown up toys!

I think it goes deeper than mindless consumerism. Humans, as a race, have always had a compulsion to do things, no matter how lofty the goal, by gathering together and letting themselves revert to their baser instincts. One person commits a blatantly stupid act at a soccer game, and you have a full scale riot on your hands. The problem is, that when humans physically gather together in large numbers for any reason, reason is the first thing that goes out the window, followed quickly by all higher brain function. It's almost as if Nature has bestowed upon the human race a critical mass self-destruct function.

It is my theory (unproven and probably full of sh*t) that people, especially the younger elements, already have so many intangible things to fear in "real life" that the monsters they want in fiction are ones that are easily identifiable, horrible but familiar, and capable of being fought by the ordinary man - even if ultimate victory is not guaranteed.

Anyone can take a whack at zombie with an axe or blow its head off with a shotgun. No authority figures (priests, scientists, "experts" etc) required.

For young people, I think the fear may be a two-edged sword. They want to fit in. Be part of the "in" crowd.

But....they realize that to be part of the crowd carries a price. That fitting in means sacrificing part, or all of, their individuality.

Zombies represent that fear. They are peer pressure. They want you to be like them. They won't take no for an answer.

But, unlike the crowd at school, you can fight zombies. Without becoming more of an outcast for being different.

Jon Recluse wrote: "For young people, I think the fear may be a two-edged sword. They want to fit in. Be part of the "in" crowd.

But....they realize that to be part of the crowd carries a price. That fitting in means..."

Perhaps so. Hard for me to tell since I never wanted to fit in. I was a lone wolfer from a very early age.

"But....they realize that to be part of the crowd carries a price. That fitting in means sacrificing part, or all of, their individuality."

That's brilliant Jon, well said!

I'm like you, lone werewolf and happy to be one.. now that I get older it's easier to laugh at those who are so forcefully trying to fit into something they probably don't even know or like in the 1st place. People need to be grounded in their head first but many seem to seek it out in others, in different ways of being accepted without giving themselves acceptance from within.

Thank you, Kasia.

@bailey: "we're the sum product of our evolved genes, and not of God's will"
you set this as an either/or and i know that's a popular perspective, but as an amateur scientist and an amateur follower of jesus, i see no reason to set the 2 at odds. i'm asking this with the gentlest of intentions, but why do you disbelieve that god expresses through evolution? when we match god's works w/ god's word and there's a disconnect, isn't the disconnect in the interpreter's mind? evolution cannot be more obvious. god cannot be more obvious.
what do you think i'm missing?

@mehmet: "Zombies show us in our worst light, unquestioning and violent [and] mindless."
your opinion is nearer my own. the walking dead offers us an accurate and frightening view of who we believe ourselves to be. our small group (rick et al) are in an us-and-them conflict, where we imprison ourselves behind bars of our own choices in order to be "safe" from "them." the undead are undead because of their contact with others of the undead and we fear them, reasonably, because we can be "infected" with their lifelessness. what we fear, we kill. fortunately most of the killing these days is metaphorical, but it's still spooky stuff.
(walking dead, for me, doesn't explore the social intricacies enough, but its characterizations and relationships far outweigh its gore and its underdeveloped social commentary.)

@jon: you deserve a gold star stuck to your forehead for your poetic insights. i wonder if you can reword message 5--with, perhaps, dollops of message 13--as a haiku.

@v.w.: who can find fault with a posting that begins "It is my theory (unproven and probably full of sh*t)...?"

Jon Recluse wrote: "Thank you, Kasia."

Welcome! I missed you and the gang here, my new job that I took last month was horribleee... a real zombie apocalypse lol, I actually went back to my old one, luckily they cried tears of joy to have me back lol.

Kasia wrote: "Jon Recluse wrote: "Thank you, Kasia."

Welcome! I missed you and the gang here, my new job that I took last month was horribleee... a real zombie apocalypse lol, I actually went back to my old one..."

I missed you, too! And I can't say I blame them. I got a little misty eyed when I saw your post. ;)

Tony wrote: "@jon: you deserve a gold star stuck to your forehead for your poetic insights. i wonder if you can reword message 5--with, perhaps, dollops of message 13--as a haiku."

Thanks.

Unlikely. If it doesn't happen spontaneously, it ain't gonna happen at all.

Jon Recluse wrote: "I think it goes deeper than mindless consumerism. Humans, as a race, have always had a compulsion to do things, no matter how lofty the goal, by gathering together and letting themselves revert to ..."

Animosity is a perfect example of what can happen when that occurs.

Kasia wrote: "Jon Recluse wrote: "Thank you, Kasia."

Welcome! I missed you and the gang here, my new job that I took last month was horribleee... a real zombie apocalypse lol, I actually went back to my old one..."

I've wondered where you were, Kasia. I thought maybe you were on vacation or something. Glad to have you back! *HUGS*

Charlene wrote: "Jon Recluse wrote: "I think it goes deeper than mindless consumerism. Humans, as a race, have always had a compulsion to do things, no matter how lofty the goal, by gathering together and letting t..."

Brilliant point, Charlene!

Jon Recluse wrote: "Kasia wrote: "Jon Recluse wrote: "Thank you, Kasia."

Welcome! I missed you and the gang here, my new job that I took last month was horribleee... a real zombie apocalypse lol, I actually went back..."

AWW adorbz!

Charlene wrote: "I've wondered where you were, Kasia. I thought maybe you were on vacation or something. Glad to have you back! *HUGS* "

I will take those hugs and give a few back Charlene. Being in the new place made me feel as if I was being dipped in a vat of acid every time, it was just blehhhh truly mind numbing. I didn't even read I was so miserable, now I'm sort of exhaling and getting back to swing of things.

And I'm bad with vacations, last time I took one was 2009 lol.

Kasia wrote: "Charlene wrote: "I've wondered where you were, Kasia. I thought maybe you were on vacation or something. Glad to have you back! *HUGS* "

I will take those hugs and give a few back Charlene. Being ..."

*BIG HUG*

You need a Book-cation. Just get lost in a forest of words for a while.

I love what you all have to say, and find it a fascinating subject. Just to throw out an alternative POV out there- what if more and more people are believing that 'the rapture' is actually going to be zombies instead? I work at a church, so I hear Bible verses day-in and day-out practically, and I have to say, reading about the 'end of times' in the Bible: the signs, it flat out says that the dead will be resurrected, how 'horrible it will be for nursing and pregnant mothers'... re-reading some of the warnings Jesus gave to his followers... I really think there could be something to the idea that it might well be something almost like the Walking Dead. Just had to throw another idea on the bonfire of creative thoughts.

"how 'horrible it will be for nursing and pregnant mothers'... re-reading some of the warnings Jesus gave to his followers..."

Im sorry, what??

Kasia wrote: ""how 'horrible it will be for nursing and pregnant mothers'... re-reading some of the warnings Jesus gave to his followers..."

Im sorry, what??"

It was in the Gospel reading for the latest sermon he did- lemme find the exact wording:

Luke 21:20-28

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

That was just the most recent sermon he gave (I have to type his sermons as part of my job) and that bit about the pregnant mothers resonated, because I had just watched Walking Dead season 2 (still working my way through Season 2- I was late in finally watching the show)

A lot of what's discussed in this thread can be found in Romero's initial trio of films - the zombies are our base/biological instincts writ large - consuming mindlessly, acting on impulse, aimless in overall goals - the natural state inverted. They are us, to paraphrase the famous line - past that, interpretations tend to get caught up in particular agendas so it's important to remember that they are us in all ways - they are dangerous but (at least in Romero's films) they are also to be pitied. Romero's inspiration was WHITE ZOMBIE and the zombie slave workers toiling in Murder Legendere's dungeons - "what happens if they got out and weren't happy about being slaves" thought the young Romero... and here we are. Another important factor, to paraphrase Romero, "never let it be forgotten that part of the attraction of the zombie scenario comes from the unbridled joy in being able to go around, in your own living scenario, and randomly kill anybody - or the closest approximation to a person allowed - that gets in your way".

They're current popularity, IMHO, needs to acknowledge that and the dropping of their sympathetic sides in the two pronged re-invention that constituted the remake of DAWN OF THE DEAD and 28 DAYS LATER. I have my own theory (posted here a couple of years ago) but people get *prickly* when politics gets engaged with (unless it's their own politics, or their just taking an immature swipe at something) so I'll refrain beyond that but Phil Hardy's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF HORROR FILM observation of Fulci's ZOMBI almost 30 years ago ("The Third World rises to eat the First World") would be the starting point, extrapolating out into a "which side are you on?"/here and now subconscious agit-prop, driven by a desire to throw off the chains of Democracy (having to support all those lazy, ugly, smelly Dead people) and just admit we'd much rather be able to kill the Underclass (who actually do all the work, when it hasn't been shipped overseas) and survive by our own wits in our Reagan-inspired/Mad Max wasteland - it's a recurrent American Culture trope - Absolution of Our Crimes and Reinvention Through Travel and Annihilation / supposed American Exceptionalism as an excuse for any/all of our crimes - writ large on our own national landscape. Wouldn't it be great if we could wipe the slate clean for the whole country and start over again? Those with the wits and vicious moxey to survive would be our new leaders and we'd have cleared out all the deadwood. "I don't need to run faster than the zombies, I just need to run faster than you" - Yuppie Darwinian (oh the irony) philosophy finally embraced by the masses, with zombies as the excuse for cultural house-cleaning.

For those interested in the ideas as zombies as "loss of identity" metaphor, may I suggest the free to download reading of Pseudopod 233: Association.

For those interested in the zombies as slave labor metaphor, may I suggest Pseudopod 298: The Long Road To The Sea.

For those interested in a more esoteric conception of Zombiedom, the movie PONTYPOOL is worth seeing for extrapolation of William S. Burroughs control-theory observation "Language Is A Virus".

In my opinion Zombie fiction as well as Dystopian Fiction, offers us an escape from the insanity that has become our lives in the twenty first century. Not to mention the lifting of the normal restraints society places upon us. Zombies are a target rich environment whose presence has thinned the herd that is humanity, giving those of us who survive more elbow room to live. It offers a wild adventure of survival of the fittest, assuming of course that you are one of the lucky ones who doesn't end up as a hapless, undead, stumbling creature that craves the taste of brains.

Interesting perspective, Bailey. When I did think about zombies, I just figured it was another trend, like sexy vampires or Harry Potter.

I grew up Catholic; but I was a bad Catholic, always questioning everything. Nietzsche's nihilism struck a chord with me. I don't think the 'God is dead' concept drew me to zombies though.

Zombies are really a post apocalyptic concept. I don't think that people are drawn to zombies because God is dead. I think it is more pragmatic. However, it is a byproduct of humanitarianism. It stems from holes in secular humanitarianism.

What happens when humanity becomes the enemy, becoming something feral and ugly?

Humanitarians will inevitably find themselves in tough situations. We spend our lives trying to understand and accept each other. But we may need to become judgmental in order to survive. Where do we draw the line? Are we survivors? Do we want to survive in an ugly future?

Zombies are a tough thought experiment.

Do we deserve to live more than others do? Or are we the zombies...the mindless mob mass?

Who's side are we on?

Who should live and who should die?

I always loved Romero's Dawn of the Dead. Personally, I think that movie says it all.

Cracked has an article suggesting it and tje vampire phenomenon are political in nature. Zombies are faceless consumers and vampires are parasites upon the system.

What's sick is some people long for a zombie apocalypse in real life. It's like they forget that in order for their to be zombies that something terrible has to happen and the world will be on the brink of extinction. Yet the only thing in their minds is 'hell yeah I get to shot and kill zombies'.

The world is in complete chaos but no biggie..just keep your dream alive.

That's an interesting topic. It's not something I've ever thought about. I'm a pagan, so I don't really believe in the Christian god, if that's the god you're referring too. I honestly don't think it really has anything to do with god though. I think it has more to do with natural instinct and knowing that a walking corpse isn't natural and should be seen as a threat. There's something not right about a corpse coming towards you and trying to eat you, that sets something off in our brains. I also don't believe that the rave or the fascination with zombies has anything to do with Godlessness or God being dead. I certainly wasn't drawn to zombies because of it. I think the fascination has more to do with psychology. I think it's something very similar to what Jon Recluse said. It's like teens fighting for individualism and it could possibly more than that. Why do we watch/read/play anything that's sci-fi, fantasy, or something that doesn't relate to real life? It's escapism. At least that's why I find such an interest in such things. You can imagine yourself in the characters place and imagine yourself being able to be a hero, having powers, being able to do things you can't do in real life.

Deeper meanings aside, I also think people are drawn to zombies because it plays with that curiosity and what if scenarios. What if something like an apocalypse did happen? How would you fair or survive? Could you survive? It's a horrifying prospect, not because of existence questioning, but because of survival. Humans have based their whole lives around survival and making a system to make survival easier. If that systems gets messed up and we have to fend for our lives against masses of other humans, how would we survive or fair?

I'm starting to not make sense now, I tend to ramble incoherently a lot. I apologize if my post makes no sense.

Zombie Apocalypse? It's just mother natures way of population control.

With zombies, I usually figure their soul and essence has gone on to the beyond already (hopefully Heaven) and was what left behind is a mindless, reanimated corpse. At least in most of the books/movies. They seem to be mindless. I don't think it has anything to do with society's view on God - but people just liking the zombie idea - people like apocalyptic stories and fellow man being the transformed enemy.

Heather wrote: "Cracked has an article suggesting it and tje vampire phenomenon are political in nature. Zombies are faceless consumers and vampires are parasites upon the system."

I've heard these before, especially with Romero's commentaries on the original Dawn of the Dead, and his placement in the shopping mall. I have no doubt he was being artsy and making a point - but I think people reach too much to label the psychological pitfall of consumerism on all zombie tales.