Space Opera Fans discussion

Jemima wrote: "I'm going to have to stop reading these comments while I'm writing. But I am considering an appointment with my vet to discuss the essential differences between different organisms, so you can expe..."

Amazing, I would love to hear what he says! It seems like animals are completely different and yet the same. I am sure my resident fish is alive. My girlfriend's family dog is human because he is treated equally and with lots of love. He is a bit spoiled but no different from human in many ways. I have to stray from contemplating which one is true or false because after some time it gives me a headache. Some dogs that are cared for takes their owner's characters^^

Micah wrote: "Well that's certainly one valid use of aliens as long as you don't romanticize the nasty stuff. "

The thing is, that if you design your aliens in a sufficiently nasty way, you can get away with "the only good indian is a dead indian" kind of stuff... like Heinlein in Starship Troopers

Done crudely, it can easily turn into John Ringo and destroy any sympathy you are supposed to feel for the protagonists in the short run. And you may end up being discredited by massive value dissonance down the road as the degree of sensibility increases.

But played well, one race killing face-huggers may be another race's kick the dog moment, so there is great potential for cultural clashes and massive inter-species racism and brutality.

Jemima wrote: "I'm going to have to stop reading these comments while I'm writing. But I am considering an appointment with my vet to discuss the essential differences between different organisms, so you can expe..."

I met up with a vet in an online chatroom, and he gave me some clues about the attitudes of a species being derived from its ecological niche.

R. wrote: "I met up with a vet in an online chatroom, and he gave me some clues about the attitudes of a species being derived from its ecological niche. "

details?

R. wrote: "I was playing with the idea of a sentient race developed from a prey species, rather like deer. They keep as working animals a creature that occupies the ecological niche of our chimpanzee. When they meet an individual human this leads to a lot of confusion.

The point is that aggression is foreign to their way of thinking. Seeing one of our conflicts they would say, "Why fight when you can escape?" "

Have you read James P. Hogan's Giants series? The first one is Inherit the Stars

They are clunky as only old-school sci-fi can be, but the Giants are evolved from a species that didn't grow up in a predator/prey environment. They visited Earth in our past and dubbed it "the Nightmare Planet" because of the deadly competitiveness.

Jemima wrote: "I'm going to have to stop reading these comments while I'm writing. But I am considering an appointment with my vet to discuss the essential differences between different organisms, so you can expe..."

Siamese Cats... in spaaaace!

R. wrote: "Seeing one of our conflicts they would say, "Why fight when you can escape?"

In one of the versions of the old computer game Maters of Orion there was a race that would do both. As soon as they were confronted with violence, they'd turn their tails (spaceships) and run...and blast the heck out of you because they put all their guns in the rear of their ships!

Siamese Cats in space? I've done that one. It even has a kill count.

Micah wrote: "As soon as they were confronted with violence, they'd turn their tails (spaceships) and run...and blast the heck out of you because they put all their guns in the rear of their ships! "

That's passive aggressiveness for you :D

Either is acceptable. Nathan Lowell's books "Golden Age of the Solar Clipper series to start with) have no aliens or space battles and they are all excellent. John Mireau's Enemy Lines series has little grey men and is my other favorite. The stories need to be about the people.

Joel wrote: "I haven't read about many aliens, having read mostly fantasy throughout my life, however, I found the Tines from A Fire Upon the Deep pretty incredible. So if the author can create som..."

It felt like Space Opera to me. I loved the Tines. I picked up and read Fire Upon the Deep only because the aliens were described as creative and very original to me. I had just finished Pandora's Star and was really impressed with the Primes so it peaked my interest. If you can add a unique spin to the alien part of the formula, then it can only help.

R. wrote: "Trike wrote: "R. wrote: "My take on this is that the aliens discover that we are a race of nasty semi-evolved simians who have both space travel and nuclear weapons and immediately run away. "

Unl..."

R. wrote: "Trike wrote: "R. wrote: "My take on this is that the aliens discover that we are a race of nasty semi-evolved simians who have both space travel and nuclear weapons and immediately run away. "

Unl..."

Check out Footfall . The alien culture in it had evolved from a herd/prey species. The misunderstandings were a central theme and very interesting. The book itself, was a little dry and I usually find Niven characters really flat and boring. However, the misunderstandings and cultural differences were a central theme and very interesting.

Can I just have a giggle that MorningLightMountain is commenting on this thread? ;)

Leonie wrote: "Can I just have a giggle that MorningLightMountain is commenting on this thread? ;)"

LOL

MorningLightMountain wrote: "Check out Footfall . The alien culture in it had evolved from a herd/prey species..."

I really enjoyed Footfall. Especially the one they 'adopted' into the human herd by taking hot mudbaths with it. It was an interesting exploration of a species with a herd mentality.

Weren't those aliens from Niven's Ringworld a herd species?

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Weren't those aliens from Niven's Ringworld a herd species?"

The puppeteers were, and in fact they rather think like horses.

In answer to the OP, no, I don't think space opera absolutely has to involve aliens to be good.

And of space opera and other sci-fi books that do have aliens in them, I agree with some of the posts in this thread that they have to be convincing to be interesting to me; a "humanoid with tentacles" or other anthropomorphisms are often just... well, kinda weak, in my opinion.

Jem is a novel set on an alien planet, and a lot of thought was put into the three intelligent species that live there -- including their biology and sociology. (I'm not sure this would be categorized as "space opera," and some of the Cold-War-like politics kind of take over the story, but it is certainly worth a read if you like reading about well-thought-out alien species).

Another book in which I believe the author does a very good job of attempting to create an alien world that has evolved with completely different rules from what we are used to here on Earth, albeit one in which the main intelligent species is decidedly human-like in many ways, in my opinion, is The Sparrow. I know that in recent years this book has been touted as a religious masterpiece or whatever, but when I read it, I enjoyed it purely from a first-contact-with-aliens perspective, and the author definitely captured that sense of excitement for me.

There are many others out there, and I've read a few of them, but am definitely looking forward to reading more :-) I guess for me the most important thing about an alien species is that is should be, from a biological and evolutionary point of view, believable -- meaning, it's pretty unlikely that they will look & act like humans. Just think about the biological diversity on our own planet! Now imagine evolution running amok on a completely different world, with a different atmosphere, different magnetism, different gravity, etc etc etc....

(Yes, I realize some of this borders on "hard sci-fi" topics, but I personally think good space opera can tip its hat to science as we know it without detracting from the story, if done well) :-)

And, of course, there are tons of good space opera stories that have no aliens at all; some have humans that have evolved or mutated to the point that they are totally unrecognisable, and might as well be aliens, but many only have humans in them and are very very engaging nonetheless.

MorningLightMountain wrote: "Check out Footfall . The alien culture in it had evolved from a herd/prey species. The misunderstandings were a central theme and very interesting."

Thanks for the recommendation! :-)

There is a whole sub-set of Sci-Fi that runs from romance through erotica in which the human - alien contact is almost always female - male. To make that work, the aliens have to be, or become, sexually compatible with the human females. I guess I shouldn't be surprised when authors "discover" yet another such alien species.

Actually I've written one where the aliens don't look even vaguely human, but most of the contract, including a human/alien romance is done through a very good VR hookup.

SPOILER

A third species, trying to prevent a war between humans and aliens, puts a male human in contact with a female alien, hoping they will negotiate. What in fact happens is that they fall madly in love.

R. wrote: "Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Weren't those aliens from Niven's Ringworld a herd species?"

The puppeteers were, and in fact they rather think like horses."

More like rabbits. Rabbits will fight and bite if provoked or cornered, but horses are far more aggressive. They are not naturally skittish or docile animals. Of all the puppeteers we meet in Known Space, we only ever see one actually fight, and only when it was pushed beyond the capacity for rational thought and backed into a corner. A horse will bite your face off just because it can.

Trike wrote: "Of all the puppeteers we meet in Known Space, we only ever see one actually fight, and only when it was pushed beyond the capacity for rational thought and backed into a corner."

Hehe was that in Protector? My memory is vague but I loved that book, as well as the other Known Space ones I've read.

It was in one of the Ringworld books. I don't recall which one, but probably Ringworld Engineers.

Trike wrote: "It was in one of the Ringworld books. I don't recall which one, but probably Ringworld Engineers."

Right on, rings a bell now. Pun intended :-p Loved those books though. Might have to pick them up again.

Niels wrote: I'm reading #9 right now,

The treecats were in Weber's Star Kingdom series. I only ever saw 3 books. Were there more than that?

Lizzie wrote: "Niels wrote: I'm reading #9 right now,

The treecats were in Weber's Star Kingdom series. I only ever saw 3 books. Were there more than that?"

Lizzie wrote: "Niels wrote: I'm reading #9 right now,

The treecats were in Weber's Star Kingdom series. I only ever saw 3 books. Were there more than that?"
There are 12 -13 in Harrington series and about the same number of affiliated books. This is the series I am trying to find a series as good. So far can't find anything as good. Any help???

Brad wrote: "So far can't find anything as good. Any help??? "

Hmm. I've never read that series so I am not sure whether my recommendations would lead you toward the crappy pulp end of the scale or the enlightened literature end of the scale.

Brad wrote: "This is the series I am trying to find a series as good. So far can't find anything as good. Any help??? "

There are 3 in the treecat series which is set before Honor in the timeline. They are geared towards young adult, but I enjoyed them.

Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet comes up often on the if you like Honor list.

I am more familiar with older series. I am not really into military fiction as I am into science fiction. So best I can do is offer up some of my favorite book series.

I liked the Dragonriders of Pern which is more about social strata and planet politics than space wars. Discovering their history and the past of settling Pern was quite good.

I like Bujold's Vorkosigan books.

You might like Pirate Planet series. It's 3 books by Elizabeth Moon, Anne McCaffrey, and Jody Lyn Nye. Pirates kidnap Sassinak as a child and she eventually becomes a fleet captain and goes after pirates.

Elizabeth Moon's Vatta War - 5 book series. Ky is kicked out of the academy; trying to get home. Corporate take overs and wars and she takes a junky ship and ends up with a fleet goving after whoever took her family out. http://www.elizabethmoon.com/books-va...

Joseph Lallo has a 3 book series called Big Sigma which is good space science fiction. 2nd one brings in a couple of former marines. Not really battle stuff but I thought it was very good. He does great characters IMHO. I liked it so much I read his fantasy series and was hooked into it too, even though I don't often read fantasy.

Pip and Flinx by Alan Dean Foster. Pip is an empathic mindrag (flying snake type creature) rather than Honor's treecat. I think there are about 15 books. Foster was the ghostwriter for Star Wars (Lucas hired him to turn the script into a full blown "world" and put it in novel form, so he created much of the Star Wars canon.)

Michael R. HIcks did In Her Name series of which there are 3 books in 3 series from first contact through the end of the species. Aliens and lots of battles. Their science seems like mysticism so to me it is a combo sci-fi fantasy though more the first. It was very well written, I thought. He usually provides the first one of each of the 3 for free, which is how I ended up reading them and then buying the rest.

C. J. Cherryh's Company War series might be of interest. I only recall reading Down Below Station and that was probably 20 years ago. But, there are at least 7 in that series.

Good luck. Hope I helped.

Lizzie wrote: "Brad wrote: "This is the series I am trying to find a series as good. So far can't find anything as good. Any help??? "

There are 3 in the treecat series which is set before Honor in the timeline...."
Very interesting stuff Lizzie!! Thank you very much for taking the time to write those recommendations :)

Sorry to have dropped out for a few weeks. Didn't get the vet talk yet because we've been talking with an animal between us. And then my new book came out - and I hope my eight-legged security guard doesn't upset Gaines as much as it upset my editor.

Has anyone found any good pronouns for other genders in aliens?

You've given me a whole load more to think about re my aliens. That's good! (but hard work!) And I need to read Honor Harrington now.

I've seen things like hes and hir used as gender indicators.

Jemima wrote: "...and I hope my eight-legged security guard doesn't upset Gaines as much as it upset my editor"

Huh? lol... did I miss something?

Lizzie wrote: "Brad wrote: "There are 3 in the treecat series which is set before Honor in the timeline...."

@Brad, @Lizzie

Were you aware Jane Lindscold, David Weber's co-author, granted us an exclusive interview when we read her Treecat Wars as part of our Book of the Month club? It's a cool interview. You might enjoy it.

HERE: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Gaines wrote: "Jemima wrote: "...and I hope my eight-legged security guard doesn't upset Gaines as much as it upset my editor"

Huh? lol... did I miss something?"

This was your Feb 13 post humanoids with tentacles anthropomorphism! Don't worry!

R. wrote: "I've seen things like hes and hir used as gender indicators."
Thanks.

Anna wrote: "Lizzie wrote: "Brad wrote: "There are 3 in the treecat series which is set before Honor in the timeline...."

@Brad, @Lizzie

Were you aware Jane Lindscold, David Weber's co-author, granted us an e..."

Thanks. I really liked her comment, "Don’t let Sense of Wonder die. Too much SF these days seems to be either dystopian or military." Dystopia in YA sci fi seems to be rampant and repetitive.

Lizzie wrote: "Too much SF these days seems to be either dystopian or military"

I don't mind the military, although I have my own take on that, Dystopia to my mind is at least in part due to writers taking the easy option. It's far less effort to imagine the ruins of a society than to design all the stuff needed for a dynamic one:

‘They've built a city called Savernake there, with mile-high towers joined by a web of bridges. They have little automated cars that run on tracks up there—or you can walk if you prefer. There's one night I'll always remember—I'd been out to dinner, with a very good friend, and we were walking back to the Royal Lodge Hotel across the bridge they call the Victoria Skyway. It was warm, and the air was almost still. We stopped, holding each other very close, in the middle of the span so that we could watch the lights of the city. They went on and on, to the horizon, in all directions. The streets, a mile below, were too far away to see individual vehicles—there were only ribbons of light. And that's when I knew.’
Arthur's hand moved slightly, and the orange glow jiggled.
Jane forced herself to look away, willing her terror to subside. ‘All that effort could so easily have been wasted on fighting one war after another. But because of Arcturian peace, it had gone into creating something really beautiful. And there are eleven million people who live and work there—not one of them has ever seen a weapon used in warfare. I'd had my doubts about what I'd done in joining Space Fleet, but that settled it for ever. I really believe in the Arcturian dream, because I've seen it work. And nothing you do to me can change that—It does work, whatever you say.’

R. wrote: "Dystopia to my mind is at least in part due to writers taking the easy option.."

I believe it is a reflection of what the young expect we adults will do to destroy the world. When I was young, in the 70s, much of science fiction presented the world as destroyed by nuclear bombs, because that was our fear - the grownups might push the button. Charleton Heston, the coastline, and a destroyed Statue of Liberty is an unforgetable image. In reading the current morass of YA dystopia, my conclusion is that the youth believe we shall destroy the world either through genetic engineering (destroying crops or humans) or as a result of environmental woes and global warming.

Not being a writer, I haven't considered the creative process as an influence on science fiction.

Lizzie wrote: "R. wrote: "Dystopia to my mind is at least in part due to writers taking the easy option.."

I believe it is a reflection of what the young expect we adults will do to destroy the world. When I was..."

I'm not sure that I entirely agree. I've always preferred utopian to dystopian SF. The few end of civilisation novels I've read and enjoyed are mainly about rebuilding, "Day of the Triffids" is a favourite. On the other hand I grew up during the cold war and wrote a few attacks on atmospheric nuclear testing.

The elephant in the room is that one of the major causes of our problems is population growth. However I've been chewed out by editors for suggesting it.

"Isn't it obvious?" I asked. "Even if we stop using technology and go back to the stone age there's got to be some limit on the number of people the Earth can take."
Jack nodded. "That's dangerous talk."
"Dangerous?"
"Dangerous for the person talking. Nobody wants to be told that saving the planet may involve their having to make do with a smaller family."
It was time for my eyebrows to do aerobatics. "But isn't it true?"
"Maybe," he said. "Just remember that being right didn't do Galileo a lot of good."

I suspect that this may be what everyone is really afraid of, and doesn't want to talk about, and that's at least part of the cause of dystopia.

That's why, in my own books, I've talked about the huge empty spaces on the exoplanets. I'm pleased to see that Ingram in "Foothold" sees things the same way.

Lizzie wrote: "Too much SF these days seems to be either dystopian or military"

I vaguely remember a quote from Pratchett's Moving pictures*, where he jokes about the filmmaker always set the movies "in a time of war/conflict/whatever" partly out of lazyness and partly because the audience want drama.

So dystopias are a grey area imo: Yes, some of them are caused by laziness and lack of imagination, others are rooted in a deep shared worry over what we're doing to the world (Bacigalupi is a very good example of an author that is great at dystopia-world-building but cannot write a plot to save his life), and some are basically ornamentation, because of the rule of cool.

* If anyone can remember it PLEASE share, I've tried to find it online on several occasions.

R. wrote: "The elephant in the room is that one of the major causes of our problems is population growth. However I've been chewed out by editors for suggesting it."

It is incredible how difficult it is to explain to people why you would prefer to only have one child or no children at all, and instead focussing on being the best uncle or mentor and help some of the kids that are already out there...

But that is basically because I belive that we're already going to hell, so let's make the road less uncomfortable and try to avoid making things worse and creating more people that can be dragged down with us.

Niels wrote: "R. wrote: "The elephant in the room is that one of the major causes of our problems is population growth. However I've been chewed out by editors for suggesting it."

It is incredible how difficult to people why you would prefer to only have one child or no children at all, and instead focussing on being the best uncle or mentor and help some of the kids that are already out there..."

This is the whole reason GMOs are being pursued so vigorously. It's an attempt at creating a technical solution to the too-many-mouths-to-feed issue, which creates a huge demand, which creates a huge profit opportunity.

But overpopulation is by no means a new or ignored issue. My paternal grandparents in the 1930s decided to only have two children because "there are already too many people in the world." China's 1970s One-Child rule was done to address population (and has been widely criticized as authoritarian and a human rights violation). Even Charles Dickens in A Christmas Carol mentions surplus population. And then you have this:

"What most frequently meets our view (and occasions complaint) is our teeming population. Our numbers are burdensome to the world, which can hardly support us.... In very deed, pestilence, and famine, and wars, and earthquakes have to be regarded as a remedy for nations, as the means of pruning the luxuriance of the human race." ~ Tertullian, resident of Carthage, 2nd century CE.

Dystopian fiction goes in cycles of popularity, though. Overpopulation tended to crop up in a lot of 1950s and early 1960s SF. But have pretty much been around always (http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/...).

Dystopian SF shifted to post nuclear themes around the time of the Cuban Missile Crises, then ecological concerns were also big in the '70s and '80s. Economic ones have been popular at times. The whole zombie craze and trying to make that fresh sparked a run of virus and genetics dystopias ... etc.

I think mostly it's fashion driving it, and the aforementioned Rule of Cool. Only in my mind Cool begins to fail when too many people hit on the same cool factor.

...Wait...how did this conversation start in a thread about aliens in space opera? [:S

Micah wrote: "...Wait...how did this conversation start in a thread about aliens in space opera? [:S "

Well, maybe it is because dystopias/zombies and aliens to a large degree exclude each other?
Because if humans are already behaving monsters, you don't really need an outside force (of evil), and conversely, if you have aliens, combining them with a dystopia would simply increase the difficulty to a level where all hope is out.

You can analyse components of world building and plot along a lot of different parameters, but I think both sci-fi and fantasy need to balance a lot of elements to give the plot suitable wriggling-room, i.e. creating possibilities and making sure that the level of difficulty isn't too high for the main characters.

The society in the beginning of Hitchikers Guide could be considered a mild form of dystopia, but it's really nothing the protagonist can do anything about except wallowing in the mud. The arrival of aliens break this stalemate by opening up limitless possibilities.

Seen from the perspective of possibilities, it is a valid point that dystopias can be sloppy writing, because the worst ones like 1984 doesn't make room for a proper story or hope.
And in my opinion, if you can never win against the dystopia, there is no reason for the protagonist to try or for the reader to read...
It's just like the quote from Seven Samurais "you cry when you are born, and when you're done crying, you die" (no, I don't like reading tragedies).

Micah wrote: "But overpopulation is by no means a new or ignored issue."

True, but the major difference now is that we have medical technology that can knock out a lot of the things that traditionally limited population expansion. Classically when a population grew too large it either ran out of a resource, or became victim to a disease propagated more easily in a dense population. Now, if that happens, we either ship the resource in or cure the disease.

The Chinese experiment (I visited Shenzhen while it was going on) ran into what they called the four-two-one problem, four grandparents being looked after by two children, in turn being looked after by one grandchild. However in some respects it was a good idea.

I think that if we are going to make it as a species we'll have to get on top of this, and it may mean rethinking the way we look at sex. Alternatively we'll have to develop a warp drive and colonise a lot of exoplanets. Or both.

Then we turned to the stars - now only hours away. Almost at once we started finding planets that had the right chemistry for life - it had just never got started. The advance teams have seeded dozens of them, and on some the atmosphere is already so Earthlike that you can walk about out of doors. What most people don't realise is that a very few of these now have roads and buildings - and spaceports - quietly waiting for the traffic that must shortly come.
Which brings us to the present, half a century on. There are continents and islands on the planets of a thousand stars just aching with emptiness. There are stars, barely diamond pinpricks in Old Earth's night, that are suns to other worlds where every evening they burn fire-flowing sunsets into the sky. But no eyes have come to watch, no lovers hold hands on the virgin cliffs. There are rivers, lakes and oceans with no names, for the first explorers haven't yet arrived to name them. And there are all the resources we need to set this old world to rights again.
I'm an old woman now, and my work is done. It was work that took my whole life, leaving no time for romance and precious little for anything but bringing to reality the dream of setting the human race free to wander the galaxy, and perhaps one day the whole universe. (Anniversary - Runner-up in the first Baen memorial contest.)

I ignore the zombie craze and put it in the horror or comedy group. For a while I was reading too many free hook up dystopia fiction and it got to be depressing. GMO leading to hunger. Genetic vaccines leading to new incurable disease. Everyone past puberty dies. Global destruction. I didn't see much hope, just fights over resources. But in talking to the twenty something's they do believe we adults will destroy the world before they are our age. I remember we believed it too, just different methods.

I just happen to believe in a potential Star Trek future too, since I was about 6 and saw the Gorn and Horta episodes. Creating aliens in the 60s was more difficult but seemed more prevalent. But TV and movies come to mind more easily than books. Even when organically different from humans aliens have the same motivations - food, resources, territory, survival and power.

Since humans are the writers I suspect it is very difficult to truly create something totally alien. Most of what I read and enjoy, aliens species are usually in the plant and animal groups where strange botany attacks settlers or animals are intelligent (dragons and treecats).

Has anyone defined alien for purposes of this question? Even when physically different, lizardlike or blueskinned with hair that connects the mind and soul, they have common human characteristics, be it peaceful knowledge seekers or war and glory in honor of the empress.

(I did get back on topic!)

Lizzie wrote: "Since humans are the writers I suspect it is very difficult to truly create something totally alien."

Good point. Also hard to get away from the anthropomorphized body type (two arms, two legs, two eyes, etc.). But I do appreciate those who try. And, yes, thanks for getting back on topic.

I am late to this party and all I can do is agree. It doesn't need aliens. A lot of it doesn't.


Some writers here have commented on how they will be or might be putting aliens in their books. I haven't yet-in any of my 200+ stories or seven or so books but I could and I just might some day.

Of course not all of my stories and books are Space Opera or even SF but those that are haven aliens.

Lizzie wrote: "Since humans are the writers I suspect it is very difficult to truly create something totally alien."

...And when they try really hard not to make tree-cats, they almost always revert to some boring mixture of non-mammalian "scary" creatures like insects or squids.

But I imagine there's also a lot of conservation of detail going on, because if you are already annoyed over the author going on and on about some irrelevant characteristics of his pet aliens, not being able to form a mental image of what they actually look like won't help.

Niels wrote: "of non-mammalian 'scary' creatures like insects or squids"

I object. Eve the alien almost-squid in my story "Love's Illusion" isn't that scary, although her decision to marry a human is rather startling.