Space Opera Fans discussion

Lizzie wrote: "Since humans are the writers I suspect it is very difficult to truly create something totally alien."

I admit that it can be difficult, but on the other hand Kapp pointed out in his "Unorthodox Engineers" series that since we all have to achieve the same things- get food, dispose of waste, maintain temperature and so on, and we have to do it with the same set of chemical elements and the same laws of physics, aliens can't be that alien.

All right, they may do things in a different way, but if you know what the aliens are trying to achieve, and what they have to work with, you can work out what they are trying to do.

R. wrote: "Lizzie wrote: "R. wrote: "Dystopia to my mind is at least in part due to writers taking the easy option.."

I believe it is a reflection of what the young expect we adults will do to destroy the wo..."

I gotta agree with you. The one dystopian novel I actually enjoyed is about finding good in the bad, and about rebuilding. The Dog Stars is the book I refer to.

Niels wrote: "Lizzie wrote: "Since humans are the writers I suspect it is very difficult to truly create something totally alien."

...And when they try really hard not to make tree-cats, they almost always reve..."

I have 3 aliens in my story line. One is a weird fuzzy bird looking thing called grasingha. Even technological footing with humans. One is a gravity being that has no physical form humans can see. And one is a cybernetic/biological virus collective that wants to assimilate everything in the universe (not just living things. Everything).

These aliens start to play a bigger role in book 2 that's coming out in a couple months! Sorry, just excited book 2 is finally done.

Jonathan wrote: " have 3 aliens in my story line. One is a weird fuzzy bird looking thing called grasingha. Even technological footing with humans. One is a gravity being that has no physical form humans can see. And one is a cybernetic/biological virus collective that wants to assimilate everything in the universe (not just living things. Everything)."

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, and those aliens sounds quite interesting (even though two of them are for all practical reasons invisible, so you can get away with describing their impact, and the third one is a fluffy bird).

What annoys me is when aliens are under-developed, over-explained or too obviously a fan-wank

Niels wrote: " two of them are for all practical reasons invisible, so you can get away with describing their impact ..."

Agreed.

I've come to the conclusion that in SF there are really only 3 types of aliens:

1) Humans in weird costumes. These are totally understandable from a human perspective and whatever behavior quirks they have due to their biology could easily be re-written as humans from a different culture. (E.g.: pretty much all of the aliens in Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5 , and most aliens in SF books.)

2) Monsters. They're primary motivation is destruction. They want to eat you for no other reason than they are the bad guys in the book/movie/TV show. (E.g.: the xenomorphs from Alien(s)/Promethius, the Blob, Godzilla)

3) The mysterious, unknowable, hidden or completely enigmatic. (E.g.: the Martians from War of the Worlds, all the aliens in Greg Bear's Forge of God, the ocean of Solaris, the Inhibitors and Pattern Jugglers from Alastair Reynolds's Revelation Space universe.)

Type 1 are most common and are, to me, the least appealing because you can always see the human in the alien suit. Although I've read plenty of good books with this type of alien in it, so I don't outright reject them. They're particularly useful in less serious works and, of course, action pieces.

Type 2 are the most brainless because their role in the story is so simple. They're fundamentally boring but can at least be useful for jump scares, action scenes, and plot movers.

Type 3 are the most intriguing, but have to be more carefully written or they are so unknowable as to be rather useless. You also can't focus on them too much as a writer or else they will lose their mystery and might transform into simple monsters.

Jonathan wrote: "one is a cybernetic/biological virus collective"

Hal Clement did this one brilliantly in the "Needle" series. Glad to see someone else having a go.

Micah wrote: "Niels wrote: " two of them are for all practical reasons invisible, so you can get away with describing their impact ..."

Agreed.

I've come to the conclusion that in SF there are really only 3 ty..."

I'd add a fourth, the ones that are taken from non-human animals. Niven's Kzin and Puppeteers are in this category.

You know what I was thinking, Star Wars didn't need aliens. All of the story and plot involve people and their relationships. Aliens are in the backdrop and are used more for flavor than storytelling.

Likewise Bujold's Vorkosigan saga has no aliens although there's plenty of genetic modifications and such.

Likewise Bujold's Vorkosigan saga has no aliens although there's plenty of genetic modifications and such.

R. wrote: "I'd add a fourth, the ones that are taken from non-human animals. Niven's Kzin and Puppeteers are in this category."

I haven't read those books. But from what I read of the Kzin I'd put them in Type 1. Their biology and nature may have been based on animals, but since they're an intelligent, spacefaring race, they sound like they'll essentially just be humans in cat suits with a taste for flesh. You could easily put humans in their stead.

For example, Wikipedia describes their culture as:

Kzin society is extremely male dominated. The leader of the race is called the Patriarch, which is a hereditary title. The Kzinti call themselves "Heroes" or the "Heroes Race" and because they believe themselves to be "heroes", their society places a very high value on "acting Heroic" and behaving in a heroic fashion.

Sounds very human to me. Like Vikings or Arthurian legends.

The same thing goes for the Prador from Neal Asher's Prador Moon. Yeah, they're biology and nature are based on meat eating crabs, but their internal dialog and power hungry nature is very human.

I like your 3 types of aliens, Micah. Every alien I can think of does fall within those parameters, some more than others.

The vast majority of Jack Chalker's aliens -- and he was prolific with their creation -- are either Type 1 or Type 3 with the occasional Type 2. Most of the ones we encounter on the Well World, which is clearly his magnum opus, are essentially humans in funny suits. In that case, though, it makes sense because literally all the species in the universe are descended from the Markovians, so if humans share psychological similarities with centaurs and man-bats and talking dinosaurs, it's because we all come from the same stock.

I think most SF universes are the same: Mass Effect, Halo, Known Space, Trek, Uplift, Marvel, DC, Xeelee, the cheela, Farscape, Stargate, Starcraft, Predators and xenomorphs, XCOM, Humanx... yeah, I can't think of any who fall outside those 3 categories.

Micah wrote: "R. wrote: "I'd add a fourth, the ones that are taken from non-human animals. Niven's Kzin and Puppeteers are in this category."

I haven't read those books. But from what I read of the Kzin I'd put..."

I've read all of them, and wouldn't quite agree. I see your point, but there are some things the Kzin do which are very non-human. Their respect for a brave enemy to my mind goes beyond anything I've seen in a human society.

R. wrote: "Their respect for a brave enemy to my mind goes beyond anything I've seen in a human society..."

Sounds like Samurai society in that regard, or the code of ethics talked about in WWI fighter aces...or indeed this passage from American Naval Battles: Being a Complete History of the Battles Fought by Navy of the United States (1831):

Captain Hull, with the officers and crew of the United States brig Enterprize, are deeply impressed with the rediness and alacrity with which the inhabitants of Portland, in their civil and military departments, assembled to do honour to the memory of the brave lieutenant William Burrows, late commander of the Enterprize, who fell in the gallant action with his Britannick majesty's brig Boxer, which she captured and brought into this port; and beg they will receive their grateful acknowledgements for their very handsome tribute of respect exhibited in their attendance on the funeral of that brave officer, as well as that of his gallant competitor, captain Samuel Blythe, late commander of the Boxer, who fell in the same action, and to whom equal honours were paid in every respect, in their funeral obsequies, exhibiting to the world an evidence of that character which the Americans are proud to possess, of showing every tribute of respect to a brave enemy who has fallen in combat, and of extending to those in their power every mark of liberality and comfort consistent with their situation as prisoners.

];D

I've often wondered if specific Kzin attributes and even story lines were taken from WWII stories of the Japanese. The honoring of a worthy adversary, vivisection of enemies, stuff like that.

Nice types, I think type 4 is pretty relevant, especially since most of the aliens I consider fan-wanks fall into this category.
Some examples could be Webers Tree-cats and Vinge's Tines and Skroderiders, all of which are modeled over Earth species with varying intelligence.
Many of these play a bigger role for the plot than being merely exotic alien fauna, but often they're too predictabe to be anything but boring.

I always considered the aliens in war of the worlds type 2...

I have to laugh at myself. I was trying to remember the name of an alien race in Alan Dean Foster novel.s so I googled "aliens in Foster novels." Duh!!!

What I was thinking of was the Humanx Commonwealth which had the Thranx (human size praying mantis) and the Ulru-Ujurrians (peaceful bear like but 3x the size). I have not read all of the Commonwealth books but the Pip and Flinx novels are set in the same universe.

There is another author whose books included a lizardlike species that was all about collecting knowledge. I thing the species began with the letter Z, but I can't remember who/what.

These are the first ones that come to my mind in regards to aliens of different physiology who do contribute greatly to the stories of the universe in which they exist while not being as "human" as the aliens we usually see , not being typically scary, and having attributes outside the human normative alien.

Niels wrote: "I always considered the aliens in war of the worlds type 2..."

Just like genres, I think some are a mix of the types. Predators, for example, begin as monsters. But as you get farther in the story you learn more and you find out they're humans in funny costumes. In War of the Worlds they kind of play both roles as Type 2 & 3. According to their actions, they're monsters. But since you never really see them physically (only their machines) or at least not until the very end, and because they are obviously high tech intelligences, they are also remote and unknowable threats. Aliens that are 100% Type 2 tend to be ones that you see ... until they eat you (squash you, burn you with fiery breath, impregnate you with their evil spawn, rip you limb from limb, or what have you). I.e., they tend to be built to physically f you up. (They also tend to roar a lot.)

But, yeah, they can kind of play a mix of those roles.

Lizzie said: "These are the first ones that come to my mind in regards to aliens of different physiology who do contribute greatly to the stories of the universe in which they exist while not being as "human" as the aliens we usually see , not being typically scary, and having attributes outside the human normative alien. "

That reminds me of something I read recently (not Space Opera, although there's a lot of military hardware flying about) - The Rosetta Man by Claire McCague. Aliens, sub-ordinate to other aliens, with a lot of math-based space travel to consider, and a great story involving lots of squirrels.

I think Micah's three types of aliens in a limited number of world-states sounds about right, too. I've been working on my A to Z Challenge posts for April, with a theme of world-building. When doing a post about my master-race in my universe I find it hard to distinguish what's really different between its organisation and those cited in Trike's post.

For those of you still waiting for me to talk to my vet about different animals - she was intrigued by the idea and is looking me out some stuff she thinks might be helpful. But there are some simple things of interest - like when dealing with reptiles; they don't breathe automatically unless they are in oxygen debt, so giving them oxygen doesn't necessarily help them recover! And many insects breathe through diffusion of oxygen through their skin.

Andre Norton had the Zacathans, who were a long lived reptilian, telepathic race who were pretty much always noted as being historians.

Julian May's Saga of the Pliocene Exile series had two classes of aliens and one pre-human. The Tanu were basically a telepathic human-type alien, but the 'ships' which brought them here always fascinated me. They were living creatures who could only be enticed to carry the Tanu if given a 'ship-mate.' It's unfortunate the ship died before the heroes showed up and we had to get their story second-hand through the 'ship-mate,' a Tanu woman named Breed.

Anna wrote: "Julian May's Saga of the Pliocene Exile series had two classes of aliens and one pre-human. The Tanu were basically a telepathic human-type alien, but the 'ships' which brought them ..."

I've always loved the concept of the ships. I wish Julian May had elaborated a bit more about them.

Leonie wrote: "AI've always loved the concept of the ships. I wish Julian May had elaborated a bit more about them..."

Me too... :-)

I've got biomechanical ships in my current WIP. Two varieties, 'needles' which are small, dolphin-sized biomechanical life forms with a marsupium large enough for a humanoid to squeeze into (very uncomfortably) or carry battle orders/cargo. And then a much larger battlecruiser sized ship that was genetically engineered from the smaller ones (a-la Dragonriders of Pern). My ships don't require a 'shipmate' though. They are like children.

The Farscape television series had biomechanical ships that were similar to Julian Mays' ships, Moya and Talyn. Those ships had a 'pilot' who was bonded to the ship, somewhat similar to Julian Mays' version. It was an awesome series. I cried when the cancelled it (though I own it on DVD).

Micah wrote: "Niels wrote: " two of them are for all practical reasons invisible, so you can get away with describing their impact ..."

Agreed.

I've come to the conclusion that in SF there are really only 3 ty..."

I haven't read every post here but has anyone mentioned the aliens in Ian Douglas' Starcarrier series? Talk about variety. Many are not humans in funny suits.

Judith Tarr has ships somewhat like subspace whales in her Forgotten Suns but some of her characters have psi ability, which helps with communication!

Jemima wrote: "Judith Tarr has ships somewhat like subspace whales in her Forgotten Suns but some of her characters have psi ability, which helps with communication!"

I'm reminded of the what, third Star Trek movie? Fouth? The one with the spaceship that came to Earth to find out why the whales had stopped singing.

@Judith:

ACTUALLY that reminds me of this concept of the Acanti, a peaceful, space-faring race of HUMONGOUS space-whales (for lack of a better desc. off the top of my head) that are captured and enslaved by a vicious race of beings that control them through technology and an engineered virus that destroyed their higher brain functionality as well as pain and dwell inside them where there are whole flora's and fauna's and a whole ecosystem - and they are in fact even consuming the whales and killing them.
They use the Acanti and their ability to travel at the speed of light and faster through the vastness of space once they are mindless bio-space-ships, to further their plans for conquest.
All this happens of course until the Acanti are set free by the heroes of the story of course!
These are to be found in some very (sadly) few of the X-Men comics from Marvel.

Akshay wrote: "...that reminds me of this concept of the Acanti, a peaceful, space-faring race of HUMONGOUS space-whales (for lack of a better desc. off the top of my head) that are captured and e..."

It sounds like Moya in the Farscape television series, though Moya had a caring pilot and the crew learned to care for her as one of their group.

Anna wrote: "Akshay wrote: "...that reminds me of this concept of the Acanti, a peaceful, space-faring race of HUMONGOUS space-whales (for lack of a better desc. off the top of my head) that are captured and e...."

Oh it was very much Moya-esque, BUT I will give them this, the Acanti were created well before Farscape ever was on the air and the Acanti are much, MUCH bigger - I mean the could contain a whole city inside them kind of big.
..also, I'm a huge Farscape fan, despite its weaker bits, it's one of the TV series that really inspired a lot more creativity than most and was a load of fun!

Gaines wrote: "Jemima wrote: "Judith Tarr has ships somewhat like subspace whales in her Forgotten Suns but some of her characters have psi ability, which helps with communication!"

I'm reminded ..."

Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home

So far some of my favorite usages of Aliens in books has been the Ariekei in Embassytown by China Miéville, the Sun-Ghosts in Brin's Sundiver and the Oankali from Octavia E. Butler's Xenogenesis series Lilith's Brood.

Micah brings up a good point about the three classifications of Aliens, but I think we could take it step further by mentioning their literary functions.

Type 1: seems to be simple embellishment and genre establishment. If an author decides to use and Alien instead of an Elf or Demon for example, the story can be classified as Science Fiction. What figurative intentions the author has, race, class...can be layered throughout the rest of their plot.

Type 2: Are generally antagonists and or plot devices used to create or solve certain conflicts to build toward climaxes. Also can be effective figurative devices for whatever moralist stance being taken.

Type 3: Are as stated, the unknown, a mysterious element added to exemplify the fact that we have no idea what Aliens might be or if they even exist. Literary function? Create suspense by adding mystery I suppose, another way to prolong a climax or perhaps even create an anticlimax.

What I like about these three examples is that they parallel other character development strategies. I just noticed that the Alien creatures I tend to like blend these three rules, it makes their characters more dynamic. It's the same for other literary characters that use personality traits to make themselves less static. As already mentioned in this forum, it's impossible for human writers to truly get away from personifying Aliens, until and or if ever we make 1st contact common knowledge. Even then, we'd then have to attempt to understand an Alien writer? Goodness, lost in translation takes on an entirely new dimension. For now I guess we'll just have to be happy with them remaining plot devices to advance our storytelling abilities and the human imagination.

Just bouncing back to comments I made earlier - since I've been writing the book during April's Camp NaNo...

I dropped the idea of a reptilian species but continued my quest for a dragonfly-type, and wanted to make sure it had some sort of cultural set-up we could understand that wasn't too Borg or Antz. It was in a cohort of its own 'emergents' and so its name was 21.

It ended up with their mythology having different life levels that they moved through... egg... mud... water... surface...air... and eventually the sixth and final level beyond air (which they looked forward to). Not sure if it's too Buddhist for some readers ;)

Lizzie wrote: "Gaines wrote: "Jemima wrote: "Judith Tarr has ships somewhat like subspace whales in her Forgotten Suns but some of her characters have psi ability, which helps with communication!"..."

Aha! Thanks. I couldn't remember which one it was.

Jemima wrote: "It ended up with their mythology having different life levels that they moved through... egg... mud... water... surface...air... "

Neat. Sounds very amphibian.

Rion wrote: "Type 3: Are as stated, the unknown, a mysterious element added to exemplify the fact that we have no idea what Aliens might be or if they even exist. Literary function? Create suspense by adding mystery I suppose, another way to prolong a climax or perhaps even create an anticlimax."

Nice description :-) A really great example of this is the Aleph in Against Infinity. We're not actually ever told specifically what it is or why exactly it's there, beyond some conjecture by the main character. And the sense of awe and mystery that invokes is wonderful.

Fun tidbit: Aliens would probably have a lot of difficulties describing human behaviour ;)

http://the-toast.net/2014/04/02/alien...

Niels wrote: "Fun tidbit: Aliens would probably have a lot of difficulties describing human behaviour ;) http://the-toast.net/2014/04/02/alien..."

Hah! I have some friends who write '50 shades' type erotica. Gotta forward that list to them. Maybe I can inspire them to come over to the dark side of space opera? 3:-)

Niels wrote: "Fun tidbit: Aliens would probably have a lot of difficulties describing human behaviour ;)

http://the-toast.net/2014/04/02/alien..."

Lovely stuff!

Niels wrote: "Fun tidbit: Aliens would probably have a lot of difficulties describing human behaviour ;)

http://the-toast.net/2014/04/02/alien..."

/chuckle :-)

I think to know whats behind the curtain always fascinate. Earlier times discovery of new worlds and their people. In space era the same urge to know the unknown fuels to discover new species.
So, aliens is an interesting topic.
What other topics could be discussed besides mentioned above?

One interesting choice is what Bujod and Weber have done. Not that many aliens, but what happens to a culture when it is separated from its homeworld?

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "One interesting choice is what Bujod and Weber have done. Not that many aliens, but what happens to a culture when it is separated from its homeworld?"

Perhaps not "up to date", but even Harry Harrison's Deathworld trilogy gets into this issue.

Aliens aren't essential to space opera but they can give it a bit of zest. Early SF was characterised by poorly executed aliens - they were pretty much caricatures to fit Western stereotypes eg: the primitive savage, the noble savage, the decadent oriental, the doomed and usually ruthless freedom fighter. Back then we could understand that. Johnny Foreigner was on the whole, poorly understood so it was acceptable to garb critters from outer space in those clothes. Strip those out and the readers would ghave been left in a state of what Plato called: aporia (unknowing). How could we possibly comprehend more realistic aliens if we knew so little about other peoples here on Earth? The audience wasn't ready.
The West is beginning to work its way through to understanding other (human) cultures. SF has developed. Authors are able to subtly weave alienness into their works. Creatures from outer space are more than crude cyphers for the American Indian or the [insert most feared nation].
In a way this reflects the increasing knowledge we in the West have of other cultures about us.
Andre Norton (who had American Indian blood) had a more nuanced view of aliens than she was given credit for. Frank Herbert's Dune, and its successor novels portrayed different cultures well, even those these ultimately derived from Earth-human normal. The merged human:animal inhabitantswere worked well in Cordwainer Smith Instrumentality of Mankind books. Cordwainer Smith was of course a pseudonym of US diplomat Paul Linebarger, who got to see a good deal of other cultures, esp the Chinese. In CJ Cherryh's The Faded Sun Trilogy the mri are inscrutable and through them I see echoes of Andre Norton's writing. Cherryh's kif from her Chanur series are well realised but less alien as in more knowable. David Brin's The Uplift War was a more gentle foray into difference. The relationship between the tymbrimi: Athaclena and Robert Oneagle could have been developed further - a tantalising glimpse is snatched away by plot (grr!).

Writing them? My aliens are a mix. As a rule I set humanity at the bottom of the pecking order. This act alone brings a number of factors automatically into play such as the obvious: why have they ignored us? and the logical follow ons: they know more than / are more advanced than us etc. Beings with a higher of intelligence may not be apparent to those on the bottom rung. Once you have your races you fill in the blanks. Humanity might hope to communicate successfully / understand those more advanced than them, but not always. I gave this idea a run out in The Tau Device, space opera with a focus on alien culture.
Getting back to the idea that we are still near the bottom of the evolutionary ladder, I imply a greater hierarchy in A Guide to First Contact where even the more advanced alien races are ignorant of higher orders. Guide is cross genre with a significant post apocalyptic content. :-)