SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

haha

One of my least favourite tropes has to be the love triangle, although the withholding information to keep someone safe and/or acting like a total jerk to drive someone away to keep them safe tropes are also much hated by me. However, these aren't exclusive to the fantasy/scifi genres.

The mate trope, however, pretty much is, and I'm soooo over it. If you've got to pull the "fated mate" card to get your protagonists to be together, you're most likely not doing a good job as a writer.

I've also had an overdose of invulnerable sassy teenager ninja assassin protagonists, to be honest.

Haley wrote: "This is probably pretty niche, but female protagonists who spend all their time degrading or lashing out at others (particularly the romantic interest). I enjoy enemies to lovers and bickering a la..."

I don't think it's niche at all, I hate it, too! Banter is all right and all, but if one person is constantly putting down the other, that's just abusive and I start wondering why they hang out with each other in the first place.

DivaDiane wrote: "I am currently really annoyed by the unpronounceable names in the Eragon series by Christopher Paolini. I’m reading it aloud to my son and the names/places are alternately really simple or unpronou..."

While I can appreciate the need for unfamiliar names in sci-fi/fantasy, I wish authors would spell them in such a way that made them easier to figure out. I've had instances where a characters name was so unpronounceable that when I am reading my brain just sees the name and fills it in with the first letter. Not ideal!

Speaking of the headers of chapters, I tend to enjoy those that use song lyrics. I mean the song is already written and exists, so the lyric can be only vaguely relevant, but becomes more so after you've read the chapter.

Kandice wrote: "DivaDiane wrote: "I am currently really annoyed by the unpronounceable names in the Eragon series by Christopher Paolini. I’m reading it aloud to my son and the names/places are alternately really ..."

Names with ' in the middle. It doesn't make the name more exotic, it just makes it annoying. If my name is Rick, you know how to pronounce it. If I spell it R'ick, but you don't know the effect of the ' then nothing is gained so... what's the point?

I'm discovering that I don't really like alternate universe stories, where the protagonists live in one universe and then something changes and now they have to deal with a new reality, especially the 'evil twin' type alternate realities. I'm having SO much trouble with Picard this season.

DivaDiane wrote: "I am currently really annoyed by the unpronounceable names in the Eragon series by Christopher Paolini."

Yeah, I struggle with this type of naming a lot. Most of them, I just give up and adopt a garbled form of least resistance.

Melani wrote: "I'm discovering that I don't really like alternate universe stories, where the protagonists live in one universe and then something changes and now they have to deal with a new reality, especially ..."

I love alternate reality when the story really tries to grapple with the idea, rather than take a cheap way out, like the 'evil twin' trope you mention, Melani. I think The Space Between Worlds made a noble effort, and This Is How You Lose the Time War really went out on a limb in a good way.

Bummer about Picard. I just discovered today that I can get seasons 1 and 2 of the series, so I hope at least these two will be worth it!

Winning the girl.

This has gone out of fashion to a large degree, but for a while, fantasy stories were completely swimming with the idea that, at the end of the quest, you WON the girl.

I can sort of deal with the idea that they already have a relationship and so the story is essentially a rescue (overdone, but whatever) - but when she doesn't even know this guy and somehow she madly falls in love with him because he happens to show up?!

I mean, what? If a firefighter saved me from a burning building do I just owe him sex? Is that how this works? I guess I'm his wife now?

What, you mean that isn't how it's supposed to work?! Well, um... oops.

(view spoiler)[this is the internet, so here is your notice that this is a joke. (hide spoiler)]

M.A. wrote: "Winning the girl.

I can sort of deal with the idea that they already have a relationship and so the story is essentially a rescue (overdone, but whatever) - but when she doesn't even know this guy and somehow she madly falls in love with him because he happens to show up?!

I mean, what? If a firefighter saved me from a burning building do I just owe him sex? Is that how this works? I guess I'm his wife now?..."

And this is one of the reasons I loved the short story Cat Person - it's such an antidote to romanticism ;)

The trope I hate which seems quite popular now is an AI gaining a physical body and falling in love with the protagonist (who is usually their creator). That just feels, well, wrong.

In a screenplay class the instructor said (I'm paraphrasing here because it's been over a decade): There are only a few ways a story can end. Either either the hero or heroine (or a collective group) wins or they don't. They get the girl or guy or they don't. That doesn't matter. It's the journey and how they get there that matters. That old saying "It's the journey and not the destination".

There isn't a single trope that I dislike, in fact they are a required part of a story. It's how the author/writer writes the trope that matters to me and if they keep me entertained and glued to a story.

Brothers, one a magician, the other a warrior.

Also hot elf guys or werewolves, whatever.

Vampires who can breed.

Teenage heros/heroines

I hate love triangles because they hardly ever resolve properly and they become the main focus of the book instead of the actual story and plot line.

I also hate the ‘strong heroine’ trope where the female lead hates all of their females for being feminine. It’s like over correction for the damsel in distress trope and it makes me mad.

Me, too.

Ella wrote: "I hate love triangles because they hardly ever resolve properly and they become the main focus of the book instead of the actual story and plot line.

I also hate the ‘strong heroine’ trope where ..."

I know I said I thought all tropes were fine as long as they were presented and written well, but I have to agree with love triangles. I don't recall a single love triangle that didn't leave me frustrated. That's usually the sign of a Mary Sue character and I put the book down.

I agree with your second trope pet peeve, too.

One of the worst books I ever read from a badly used tropes perspective was Inferno by Dan Brown.

Super genius characters who don't do anything smart? check

Deus ex machina all over the plot? check

Clues the reader has no chance of working out? check

Bad guy out to destroy the world? check.

What made it particularly bizarre is that this super genius bad guy who wants to destroy the world (and is absolutely obsessed with his mission) deliberately leaves a bunch of clues lying around for Langdon to solve. Why on Earth would he do that? It's like a bankrobber ringing the police to tell them he'll be down at the bank at 3.00 with his gun and balaclava.

Just ridiculous but I had great fun bagging it in my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Oh yeah, and books by blockbuster novelists which read like first drafts - written quickly for sale and unedited.

Not really a trope, I suppose, but books full of mistakes, plot holes and even typos should never be let loose on the public.

Steph wrote: "The trope I hate which seems quite popular now is an AI gaining a physical body and falling in love with the protagonist (who is usually their creator). That just feels, well, wrong."

Yes, it does. (If the protagonist is their creator). Like falling in love with... yourself.

A villain who has no motivation or purpose other than to give the good guys and girls something to do. And the villain is evil just because. I guess that's not just a sci-fi or fantasy trope, and it's not really a trope, it's just bad writing.

All tropes, which are necessary for genre stories, are fine to me as long as the story they inhabit is well written.

Love triangle are not so much tropes are they are plot devices, and I cannot adequately express my disdain for love triangles. I truly despise them.

Only time I’ve ever seen a love triangle done well was in the recent Iron Widow - and of course it did not end up in the stupid YA type love triangle nonsense so common

Characters overcoming impossible odds with ease! A good example would be Kvothe from the Kingkiller Series, as likeable as the character is, there is something lucklaster about triumph after triumph. It would be nice to read some books where characters fail in some things and learn from thier mistakes. (If anyone has a recommendation for something like that, please drop the title).

Benny wrote: "Characters overcoming impossible odds with ease! A good example would be Kvothe from the Kingkiller Series, as likeable as the character is, there is something lucklaster about triumph after triump..."

Sometimes I think this one has a dangerous effect on people. In US popular entertainment we so often see characters take on impossible odds and succeed, just by determination and maybe the righteousness of their cause. Some people are probably foolish enough to take this seriously and act with unrealistic boldness in dangerous situations.

Benny wrote: "It would be nice to read some books where characters fail in some things and learn from thier mistakes. (If anyone has a recommendation for something like that, please drop the title)."

Ah, I have just the thing. If you haven't read it already, of course. I never had until last year/this year, so it's possible.
The books I'm thinking of are The Stormlight Archive, by Brandon Sanderson. (Starting with The Way of Kings). Have you read it? This very aspect of it - that the hero fails and fails again and again, and his life goes very badly for a long time - is one of the major things I liked about it as I read it. It felt so real! So relatable.

Surely the vast majority of literature includes failure as important parts of the plot.

Literature which doesn't do this will find it hard to show the kind of growth we mainly hope to see in MCs.

In fact, I can't think of anything (that doesn't feature failure) off the top of my head except for (say) Ender's Game where Ender won at everything, but even he had a couple of teensy disappointments.

Not sure if I mentioned it already, but I'm not too fond of it when someone brings Earth into a second-world fantasy and when the context makes it clear it's a far-future Earth. Especially if it's late in the story and feels out of place.
Authors, keep that for Sci-Fi, please.

Gah! Just when I least expected it, on page 167 of the enjoyable Dauntless, the MC ..."let out a breath he hadn’t known he was holding."

It's like dog doo-doo.

We all exhaled the pent up tension.

It's not quite the cliche but dangerously close.

Adrian wrote: "We all exhaled the pent up tension.

It's not quite the cliche but dangerously close."

There's just no escape from it, Adrian 😭

The chosen one trope is so overdone. Like there's a prophecy or legend and the unsuspecting protag has to save the world but doesn't believe in themselves blah blah blah

Jade wrote: "The chosen one trope is so overdone. Like there's a prophecy or legend and the unsuspecting protag has to save the world but doesn't believe in themselves blah blah blah"

I couldn't agree more! I am becoming allergic to "chosen one" books ;)

Most chosen ones are so named because the author couldn't figure out another way to make the main character the hero of the story.

You notice how seldom you are told who choose the chosen one.

Mary wrote: "Most chosen ones are so named because the author couldn't figure out another way to make the main character the hero of the story.

You notice how seldom you are told who choose the chosen one."

They're just chosen... OK?

I have decided that even though the MC just let out the stupid breath he hadn't realized he was holding in Fearless, I just don't care anymore. There's no escape from it, so this will hopefully be my last post about that trope. You can all let out your collective breaths 😯

oh thank god, i hadn't realized i was holding it!

Michelle wrote: "I have decided that even though the MC just let out the stupid breath he hadn't realized he was holding in Fearless, I just don't care anymore. There's no escape from it, so this will ..."

I suppose, if the breath was an agonal respiration and the character was then dead, the phrasing would be accurate. Of course, that's probably out of context . . .

Everybody's a comedian :)

Amber wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Little miss perfect assassin/warrior/sorceress/whathaveyou with angsty, annoying attitude. And love triangle. And difficult names to remember/pronounce, especially the ones involvin..."

I have a cure for the overly difficult name. Well, two actually. One is to hear it read that way it can stick in my mind. The other started in Jr. High when having to read the Illiad and give a spoken report on it, change the name. So in my report, I talked about Ajax, Achilles, Hector, Paris, and Andy.
After the third or forth time I used Andy he asked me if I meant Agamemnon. I agreed and told him I had changed it in my mind since I couldn't pronounce it...at the time. Now I have it down. LOL.

That'll work!!

what is "MC"?

nm. main character

Joe wrote: "Peggy wrote: "Made-up words. If it's a fork, call it a fork, not a sjfwejfke."

Worst I saw of that was someone calling it a "tabe" instead of a "table." What was the point of that?"


Sometimes authors who are righting future-based writing will adjust words to try and show the evolution of a word from what it was to what it will be. Or to introduce a slang-based laungage for the poorly educated. Personally, I don't care for it all that much.

Brenda wrote: "Well! If you want a good list of hack fantasy tropes, go and get your hands on THE TOUGH GUIDE TO FANTASYLAND by Diana Wynn Jones. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4......"

I found a PDF copy that I could download. So I having fun with this.

DivaDiane wrote: "I am currently really annoyed by the unpronounceable names in the Eragon series by Christopher Paolini. I’m reading it aloud to my son and the names/places are alternately really simple or unpronou..."

I read a critique of Eragon allegedly written by his Mother. It said: Remember, Dragon is spelled with a D.

Adrian wrote: "One of the worst books I ever read from a badly used tropes perspective was Inferno by Dan Brown.

Super genius characters who don't do anything smart? check

Deus ex machina all over the plot? che..."

I generally dislike Dan Brown because he uses, well maybe not a trope per se, but he uses his books as a bully-boy pulpit against the Catholic Church. In general, any organization created by humans will have good and bad members. He tries to sound all-educated on the subject but for someone like me, raised Catholic, although non-practicing for the last forty years or so he just sounds dumb. The Catholics took no part of the mezo-American practices as their own. And when you say the Church has no goddess figure, you are having to overlook Mary in a huge way. So maybe the trope is the genius character, that doesn't make the grade.

Adrian wrote: "Oh yeah, and books by blockbuster novelists which read like first drafts - written quickly for sale and unedited.

Not really a trope, I suppose, but books full of mistakes, plot holes and even typ..."

Typos seem to be more common nowadays in books I am reading. In general, I blame automatic spell checkers. It allows editing to be done far too easily and far too lazily. Look no red lines it must be okay.

Rachel wrote: "Only time I’ve ever seen a love triangle done well was in the recent Iron Widow - and of course it did not end up in the stupid YA type love triangle nonsense so common"

I am enjoying a love triangle in 'Girl Genius which is an online comic, it has such a wonderful tagline. Today is a Great Day for Science.

And you have to love the Jager Monsters.

Maybe not a trope, but a pet peeve that has steered me away from reading epic fantasy as much as I used to, and that is the 'longer is good, and huge is even better'. It seems that every small subplot that the author falls in love with *has* to be included as an interlude, or an aside, that steers the narrative away from the main plot and drags the book down to a crawl. These tomes end up being 1200+ pages of 50% side stories, and 50% prose that moves the story along.

I do love world building, and the richness of fantasy worlds, and the scope and imagination, but there are clever ways of using the MC(s) to do that, and weaving it into the story that is seamless and unobtrusive.