SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Beth wrote: "Even in a BOTM. It really is everywhere! (Neom, in this case.)

"Goodbye."
The robot left. Mariam let out a breath of air she hadn't realised she was holding."

Michelle and Hans' discussion in mes..."

That would be a good thread, Beth! I have lots of repeat offenders to report :)

Ahhhhhhh! I'm at the 90% mark of my current read, and things were going so well!! The Dread Trope just reared its head when he let out that darned breath that he hadn't known he was holding.

Michelle wrote: "Ahhhhhhh! I'm at the 90% mark of my current read, and things were going so well!! The Dread Trope just reared its head when he let out that darned breath that he hadn't known he was holding."

I notice it every time I read it now, and then I think of this thread...😂

Leonie wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Ahhhhhhh! I'm at the 90% mark of my current read, and things were going so well!! The Dread Trope just reared its head when he let out that darned breath that he hadn't known he wa..."

Me, too, Leonie! It causes me to post/report ;)

One of the things I don't like is the "crew member experiences something strange but doesn't tell anyone." prime example Defying Gravity.

I'm like that too! If you just told someone a catastrophe could be averted! In that same vein, I hate when characters withhold important info from others "for their own good." This is a real life per peeve of mine too. Let that person decide whether or not it's helpful info. And if a book relies on this for the plot, that's lazy writing.

Yes, that drives me bonkers as well.

I don't like this one either. Especially, if these characters have their own definition of what that "for their own good" means. Sometimes they just screwed up royally and don't want to face the consequences.

Kaladin wrote: "I don't like this one either. Especially, if these characters have their own definition of what that "for their own good" means. Sometimes they just screwed up royally and don't want to face the co..."

Or it's a case of character stupidity!

Definitely!

The withholding information thing kills a story for me. It's a specific instance of something that usually makes me DNF a book, the author blatantly interfering in the story because they're too lazy or unskilled to make it go where they want without doing so. Other examples are the piece of information that just happens to reveal itself at the perfect time or the characters that just happen to be in the right place at the right time to see a crucial event.

My pet peeve is epistolary or journal-style written as first person. I can't STAND it. Thankfully it's not something I come across very often, but I still get comments on one of my reviews from like a decade ago because people either think I was too harsh in my criticism or they agree that it was terrible. LOL

The argument is always that the diary/journal/letters whatever are written for posterity, so they need more context... but there's context, and there's "I walked across the dark garage looking for a lightswitch, hoping that I wouldn't stub my toe on the mini-fridge in the process." Nobody needs to preserve that. And even if you had the hubris to think you did, when do you have time to record it all??

Lol, Becky- you put that very well!

Scifi: When I was a teenager I listened to this author ( I can't recall the name ) who complained that a lot of SciFi is just full of 'gimmick' technology centric focuses with barely a story wrapped around it. I was extremely offended at first, but I quickly realized that it was kind of true. Not that there are NOT SciFi with good character driven stories, but there's a lot that is just the bare minimum of a story superficially stretched over world building and description of fantastical technology.

Fantasy: A lot of fantasy is trapped in LOTR tropes; knights, princesses, dragons, orcs, goblins, etc.

Becky wrote: ""I walked across the dark garage looking for a lightswitch, hoping that I wouldn't stub my toe on the mini-fridge in the process."

To me this shows that the author may have chosen epistolary and didn't take the constraints of that form seriously enough, and/or that they'd be better off not trying to be cute and should just use regular first-person narration instead.

"Irene let out a breath, unaware that she'd stopped breathing."
-The Invisible Library

Sorry, Meredith! They try change up the wording a bit, but duh! An annoying trope worded any other way is still a trope.

I thought it was more elegantly phrased than the usual. 😄

Beth wrote: "To me this shows that the author may have chosen epistolary and didn't take the constraints of that form seriously enough, and/or that they'd be better off not trying to be cute and should just use regular first-person narration instead."

I made up that example, but EXACTLY this. Just use first-person!

Has anyone ever not noticed that they have stopped breathing? Provided that your are conscious, it would seem something that most people would, hopefully, notice. :)

You'd think so, Kaladin, but I think I do it all the time. Not during anything exciting - mostly exercise honestly. Yoga sometimes, and planks particularly. Evil things. I'm not in peak physical condition, one could say, lol, so I'll find myself holding my breath to hold the position and then yell at myself because I know it's not good and that the breathing is critical, and yet... I still don't realize I'm holding my breath until after I've held it. Unless I REALLY focus on NOT holding it and controlling my breath.

I understand Becky. That makes sense. I take Wing Chun classes. Breathing techniques are also an important part. Rather than forgetting to hold my breath, I forget when to breath in and when out. Drives my teacher insane.

you might not consciously forget to breath, but when you're doing something tricky or finicky you might subconsciously hold your breath.

True. I guess I've come across that line too often.

It’s really overused in fiction, for sure!

Kaladin wrote: "Has anyone ever not noticed that they have stopped breathing? Provided that your are conscious, it would seem something that most people would, hopefully, notice. :)"

I spend half my working life (physio) reminding people to breathe when they're exercising. Some of them even get to the purple stage! 😂

<——- gets to the purple stage 😬

I had a doctor's appointment the other day, just routine stuff, and guess what? I forgot to breathe out. :D :D now I definitely understand that better :D

A very natural and instinctive time to hold breath is when some predator is looking for you. This tends to transfer over to high tension situations.

From My Best Friend's Exorcism, what seems to be an attempt at a variation:

"Abby's jaw aches and her throat gets tight. She doesn't realize she stopped breathing."

Rick wrote: "The withholding information thing kills a story for me. It's a specific instance of something that usually makes me DNF a book, the author blatantly interfering in the story because they're too lazy or unskilled to make it go where they want without doing so. Other examples are the piece of information that just happens to reveal itself at the perfect time or the characters that just happen to be in the right place at the right time to see a crucial event."

Characters who just happen to be in the right place/time is okay, to my mind, as that's what makes the story. Most of us go through life with normal things happening / not happening, and that's our story which is not worth telling. For those who were there in the right place/time for something to happen - that's the interesting story, although if it happens too often as a plot device it would get very boring.

Totally agree with your other point - the deliberate withholding or even hiding of crucial facts and then revealing them late is a total cheat. I love it when a writer can fool me with a late revelation/twist that was hidden in plain sight, but to simply not mention something that should have been obvious is very annoying.

For example, I've often argued with people over the years re the "twist" at the end of Ghost (the movie). So many reckon it's brilliant, but with every other ghost you could see their death wounds and the young boy was terrified of them. Bruce Willis's were deliberately hidden until the end (and the young boy conversed with him). That is a cheat - not a clever twist.

Rant over. I shall go and have a lie down.

Posted this in the wrong thread first. Oops!

One that's been getting to me over the last year or two is what I'll call "altered state of consciousness" - the examples I can think of all have a romantic element, where the couple is at the "attracted, but not ready to push the button yet" stage. One of the two drinks alcohol, has a fever, is put into a state of posthypnotic suggestion, etc. In some cases the character's behavior undergoes a near-complete rehaul, so they're outgoing when otherwise shy, acting much more clingy or otherwise unihibited. I see this trope in manga all the time. I mainly dislike it because it's authorial fiat, forcing reluctant characters into situations they'd never get themselves into otherwise.

Beth wrote: "One that's been getting to me over the last year or two is what I'll call "altered state of consciousness" - the examples I can think of all have a romantic element, where the couple is at the "attracted, but not ready to push the button yet" stage. One of the two drinks alcohol, has a fever, is put into a state of posthypnotic suggestion, etc. In some cases the character's behavior undergoes a near-complete rehaul, so they're outgoing when otherwise shy, acting much more clingy or otherwise unihibited. I see this trope in manga all the time. I mainly dislike it because it's authorial fiat, forcing reluctant characters into situations they'd never get themselves into otherwise."

This is super cringy and my immediate reaction was that this is, basically, SA. If the character is inebriated, they aren't able to consent. That's a really gross trope.

Not to defend it or anything, the character who's in the altered state of consciousness is always the one making the move, and I can't remember a single instance of the will-be partner taking advantage of the situation. They might be tempted, but don't actually follow through on that temptation. (or something happens to interrupt them as they are preparing to swoop in for the kill....)

Beth wrote: "Not to defend it or anything, the character who's in the altered state of consciousness is always the one making the move, and I can't remember a single instance of the will-be partner taking advan..."

I strongly disagree with your statement, for many reasons. One, the person who is in this 'altered state of consciousness' is often in it because of something the other person did (spiked drink, plying the other with alcohol, drugs offered, etc). About you saying that you can't remember a single instance of the will-be partner taking advantage of the situation, I call B.S. on that. Go to a students frat party or the equivalent and tell me if no one takes advantage of a drunk/drugged/incapacitated woman. You sound like you are trying to justify the abuse by putting the whole responsibility on the incapacitated person. Get back to reality and be honest about this.

Easy Tiger. I think Beth made it pretty clear the non-affected person was not taking advantage of the situation the affected person had got into by him/herself.

Michel: we are talking about fiction. In the fictional examples I can recall, the situation plays out as I described, and no actual harm comes to anyone involved. As a woman, I am well aware of how such scenarios often and unfortunately play out in real life, but thanks for your concern about my grasp on reality.

My apologies, Beth. The way you phrased your comments made me believe that you were talking about real, general cases of incapacitated persons being abused, rather than about a fictional encounter in a book. I have seen and heard too many cases in the past of abusers putting the fault on the abused and that kind of ticked me off. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Beth, thanks for clarifying. I still think it's a gross trope and wouldn't enjoy reading that situation, but at least it's not quite as bad as I initially thought.

By the way, Michel, I appreciate your ferocity in wanting to protect and defend people who end up victimized in this type of situation, even if conveying it was a little harsh. :)

It seems to me there's a bit of misinterpretation here. Beth wasn't talking at all about exploitation... the way I read it a potential relationship/liaison had been fast forwarded by one of the characters being affected by something (by their own hand) and therefore losing enough inhibition to push for the liaison faster than they might have done otherwise. The mutual attraction though was already there.

So what we are really talking about has nothing to do with exploitation and everything to do with an author being too lazy to go through an interesting/original process towards a relationship and simply relying on "In Vino Veritas" to get the couple over the line.

Feel free to tell me if I have that wrong, Beth.

I understand that now after Beth’s clarification, Adrian. My initial thought was that it was more along the lines of typical “taking advantage” exploitative behavior. I’m glad that this is not the case, but I still don’t think I’d enjoy reading those scenes. It would make me anxious that it MIGHT happen in a problematic way. So, I would agree with Beth posting it here… this would not be a trope I’d enjoy.

Adrian's interpretation is just about right. Sometimes the influence comes from without, i.e. hypnosis or the character unknowingly taking alcohol, but the main part of my objection is its lazy storytelling. As I go through my manga backlog, it shows up distressingly frequently. In the manga of the '80s particularly those written for teen boys or young adult men, it can veer uncomfortably close to an actual SA situation. I always note that in my reviews and near always dock a full star for it.

Erm...I am late, but I feel like it's important to remind folks that we do not attack individuals here, and that if ever we have concerns about their meaning, we ask questions. I understand that altered states are a trigger for a lot of folks and rightly so, but to my knowledge, Beth was never defending her personal actions on that front so lets take a deep breath.

I can see, Beth, how that would be annoying and very common in books with romance-forward plots. My understanding is that alcohol is a big cultural element in a lot of these books, too, and so I can imagine that being common--and as we've seen here it creeps up very uncomfortably on other experiences. All together, I'm in your camp--this trope is poo.

"Saffron let out a breath she didn't remember holding. "
An Accident of Stars chapter 2!

Sorry!

I feel like when I'm reading, I just unintentionally hold my breath until one of the characters lets out a breath they were unintentionally holding.

That was in a book I listened to yesterday, and when I heard it I said WHOOPS! out loud, forgetting that my husband was in the other room, until he asked me what happened. I had to laugh and tell him about the trope.

Meredith wrote: "I feel like when I'm reading, I just unintentionally hold my breath until one of the characters lets out a breath they were unintentionally holding."

This made me laugh, Meredith! It feels like it's in every book I read lately at some point.

I just came across this pharase again in a couple of books and sample chapters. Like you Meredith I held my breath and let it out when the characters did. :D

I read a book from 1993 this week that had it. 1993!

Burning Bright: "Lioe released the breath she hadn’t realized she’d been holding, and craned her head to look out the viewport again."