Classics and the Western Canon discussion
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Planning for our fourth 2016 read
Surely, in these parlous times in the history of our republic, de Tocqueville will be a strong contender.
That is definitely a varied and interesting list.
I have been planning to read the Adams book for a while now. It would be interesting to read it as a group.
My wife loves The Education of Henry Adams; it really spoke to her in university, though I've not read much of it. The book in some ways resembles a long, disconnected rant about life, if that appeals you; some long, dull stretches, and also some fascinating insights. As in the last poll, I commend de Tocqueville, though I've read most of Democracy already myself.I would very much like to read Spenser, and this group would be ideal for that. However, this session starts right as I will be transitioning back to the States with a new baby and a new job, and given my likely distraction levels, I'd better refrain from voting.
I have read the Spenser and it does take a great deal of concentration to read it, especially for discussion purposes.
Rosemarie wrote: "I have read the Spenser and it does take a great deal of concentration to read it, especially for discussion purposes."Ah, yes, but it's so beautiful in parts, isn't it? But it is long. Three hundred years ago no English reader would have considered themselves educated if they hadn't read it. But it's fallen onto evil days today, and few people other than scholars have read it. (I've only read bits myself.)
I liked Parts 1 and 2 of the Faerie Queene much more than book three. The language is beautiful, definitely, but takes a lot of patience. My daughter was studying English in university at the time so I decided to read some of the books she was studying. She read only excerpts as well, but I had time to read it all. Ditto the Canterbury Tales. I read all of them, even the less well known tales. The tales are so vibrant and human nature has changed very little since then.
Rosemarie wrote: Ditto the Canterbury Tales. I read all of them, even the less well known tales. The tales are so vibrant and human nature has changed very little since then. "Very true. I can't recall whether you were with our group when we did the Canterbury tales, but we, too, of course, did them all, though some got more interesting discussion than others!
I can imagine which ones. I was always partial to The Miller's Tale, and of course, The Wife of Bath.I have always wanted to read more Chaucer and I see you have one of his works on the list.
Dostoevsky lost in the last poll by the slightest margin. I'd like to give him a second chance. It's hard to believe this group has never read any of his works. Besides, it would be interesting to compare the psychology of James and Dostoevsky, and their respective views on religion and human nature.
I have always admired Dostoevsky and consequently have read almost all of his works. Of all of them, The Brothers Karamazov has fascinated me the most. I read it two years ago, and even if I do not read it again, I will definitely benefit from the discussions. There are so many choices this time around, it will be hard to choose a book.
Rosemarie wrote: "There are so many choices this time around, it will be hard to choose a book. "The Random Number Generator is expert at picking lists that make it hard to choose!
Patrice wrote: "Haven't we read the brothers Karamazov? I seem to remember a terrific discussion of that amazing book."Must have been somewhere else -- we haven't done it here.
The Brothers Karamazov discussion was over on Readers Review.
Adams and De Tocqueville sound great and are on my to-read list.My physical bookshelf is straining under weight and begging me to vote for Dostoevsky. I would probably be just as happy with Conrad or Chaucer. Also, I kind of miss fiction.
Nemo wrote: "Dostoevsky lost in the last poll by the slightest margin. I'd like to give him a second chance ..."I definitely agree, Nemo. Dostoevsky is one of these writers who really speak to my soul. According to Calvino, it is a real "classic" as I can never leave the book after I've finished reading. It stays in my thoughts for weeks and I must go back and reread entire chapters... And then every time someone mentions the book, even years later, it makes me go back and it starts all over again, in a new light, with new thoughts...
My vote (and I'll be sure to vote this time) would be for fiction generally, and Brothers Karamazov specifically. It's the sort of book, like Ulysses and Infinite Jest, that I've started a few times but never finished, so I'm sure this group would help me see it through to the end.
Dave wrote: "My vote (and I'll be sure to vote this time) would be for fiction generally, and Brothers Karamazov specifically. It's the sort of book, like Ulysses and Infinite Jest, that I've started a few time..."If it's confession time, I've started BK a few times myself, but never gotten very far into it. I know I should read it, but ...
I read the Brothers K. two years ago, last year it was Crime and Punishment. I usually take a couple of classics for vacation reads, that way I know they will be books worth reading. I much prefer the Brothers to Crime and Punishment. There is so much to ponder on and discuss in the Brothers K.
Rosemarie wrote: "I read the Brothers K. two years ago, last year it was Crime and Punishment. I usually take a couple of classics for vacation reads, that way I know they will be books worth reading. I much prefer ..."You'd better be careful: if BK wins, I may draft you to moderate the discussion!
I wasn't planning on doing a reread. It is a long book, after all.
Dostoevsky is my favorite, and I optimistically just bought the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation of BK.
Enough discussion, time to vote!! The poll is up. (Though of course you are free to keep discussing here if you want to.)
I have been absent for the better part of a year. Partly having a new baby and partly because I just haven't been interested in reading the heavy stuff.But BK is one I have been meaning to read. I loved Crime and Punishment, and would describe it as my favourite book. He is an amazing writer.
Cass wrote: "I have been absent for the better part of a year. Partly having a new baby. ..."Delighted to have you back, and a warm welcome to the new baby.
We'll hope to see him or posting here here in a few years! (It comes sooner than you think; my second grade grandson has already read all of Harry Potter, among many other things. Reading in our family seems to be in the genes!)
As a marginally peripheral participant, I would enjoy discussing The Brothers Karamazov.
Everyman wrote: "....Reading in our family seems to be in the genes!..."And you don't think this trait has any aspect of "nurture"? [g]
Patrice wrote: "Yes congratulations! How many does this make?"3 now - a 6yo, a 4yo and a brand new little boy. Exhausted beyond belief at the moment, I feel like I haven't read a decent - write in the margins type - book in a year.
Though I am currently working my way through the Abebooks list of favourite dystopian novels,
Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "....Reading in our family seems to be in the genes!..."And you don't think this trait has any aspect of "nurture"? [g]"
Yay for nurture. It has been the greatest pleasure raising readers. My husband (who is discovering reading) has read so many books to our girls over the past 12 months (The Narnia series, all the Roald Dahl books, The Hobbit, etc).
One day the school librarian stopped me to tell me about library time. My eldest daughter (5yo at the time) had asked for help finding a new chapter book for Dad to read to her. It prompted the librarian to read a chapter book (instead of a picture book) to the students in the storytime. My daughter helped pick the book (I believe she chose 'The Twits' by Dahl) and the librarian explained to the students how chapter books were different, and how we used our imagination.
I was kind of proud to realise how immersed my kids were into reading, it is easy to forget that most kids don't get this type of upbringing.
Cass wrote: "Patrice wrote: "Yes congratulations! How many does this make?"3 now - a 6yo, a 4yo and a brand new little boy. Exhausted beyond belief at the moment, I feel like I haven't read a decent - write i..."
Hi Cass,
I will add my congratulations, and let you know that I'm with you in spirit. I have a three-year-old and a 14-month-old. Hang in there!
I got through some hefty books on my TBR list while my baby was an infant by listening to audiobooks on my phone during nighttime feedings. It also made me slightly more enthused about getting up for the feedings to begin with. :) Put it on speaker, and you have handsfree entertainment. Baby gets the benefit of additional verbal input from hearing the books, delivered in a soothing voice, so it's all good. Just a suggestion, if you're not doing it already.
Abebooks has a list of favorite dystopian novels? I must check that out.
Patrice wrote: "This is quite an accomplishment. My grandkids are not readers and I thought it might be because there are three of them so there are constant distractions.."They didn't sit still until around the 4.5yo mark. Prior to that it was piles of picture books. Last year my youngest (3yo) would not sit still while my husband read. Lots of the time I would lay cuddling her to sleep, while he read to the eldest (all in the same room). If I didn't, then the 3yo would interrupt.
So yes, looking at it I can see that because we value reading, we didn't see any of that as too much.
For the last three nights I have sat my (now) 10wk old on the bed beside me and read Enid Blyton to the girls... I am so excited because... this is the first chapter book that my (now) 4yo has really listened to, and my boy stops crying long enough for me to read a chapter or two, and finally, because I loved Enid Blyton, and when I tried to read this book last year it was met with boredom.... Now I just need to make them fall in love with "Snugglepot and Cuddlepie" (gorgeous and well loved Australian children's book).
Amy wrote: "Abebooks has a list of favorite dystopian novels? I must check that out. ."The Abebooks literary bucket list:
http://www.abebooks.com/books/feature...
I am working through the Post-Apocalyptic list (sorry, I said Dystopian, close enough). It is kind of a random list, but it beats the category list on Amazon.
Amy wrote: "I got through some hefty books on my TBR list while my baby was an infant by listening to audiobooks on my phone during nighttime feedings. It also made me slightly more enthused about getting up for the feedings to begin with. :)."Not hefty, but we just finished listening to the entire "Game of Thrones" audiobooks - must have been almost 200 hours. I am listening to "Persuasion" at the moment.
Well, I shouldn't say the GoT isn't hefty, it has a lot going for it, and I really think it is LotR calibre (in that it is not hardcore literary fiction, but that it does belong on must read booklists for a variety of reasons, in particular the way woman in the series are just so awesome).
Cass, thank you for the link. I like looking at lists for new books to read.
Cass wrote: "Amy wrote: "I got through some hefty books on my TBR list while my baby was an infant by listening to audiobooks on my phone during nighttime feedings. It also made me slightly more enthused about ..."I loved the Martin books, mostly because they felt so much like the history I spend most of my time reading. He understands the Golden Rule very well - he who has the gold makes the rules. One doesn't have to spend all of one's time on weighty matters. Wouldn't want to turn out like Jack Nicholson in the Shining.
Ah! I was out of the country so did not see this new poll nor voted. Is it that Brothers Karamazov won; this is a book I have read and enjoyed, or do the weighted votes alter the results and Tocqueville won? Likely the latter would have received my vote as I have that book and it is unread.
Cass, congrats on your new baby! I know that sleep is a precious commodity to you now! Yes, I had voted for Crime and Punishment last go around so am interested to hear it is one of your favs! Someday I shall read it..hopefully with this group!
Sue wrote: "Ah! I was out of the country so did not see this new poll nor voted. Is it that Brothers Karamazov won; this is a book I have read and enjoyed, or do the weighted votes alter the results and Tocque..."Oops -- I forgot to go check the poll. Will do it soon. Sorry!
Well, the voting came out this way.Only two selections were serious contenders.
Dostoevsky -- raw 9, weighted 18
deTocqueville -- raw 5, weighted 13
When the voting is close we normally hold a run-off. Is this result close enough to merit a run-off? The voting in favor of Dostoevsky was 64% raw and 58% weighted. That seems more decisive than is usual in our first polls, so I'm inclined to think not to force a run-off but just to declare Dostoevsky the winner and move on. But I'll listen to bribes if deT adherents want to offer them. (Warm chocolate chip cookies go a long way toward softening my heart. )
Just consider including deToc in the next voting? I was (am?) in need of a fulsome summer beach read, rather than something heavy. I did consider shifting my vote to deToc, which might have pushed in the direction of a run-off, but lost track of timing. deToc has been in the "almost" for a long time and, like VAR, strikes me of something very worthy of our attention at this point in history. So there's my two cents of opinion!
Isn't it a bit sad that one needs to read a work written by a foreigner to remind himself of his own country?
Nemo wrote: "Isn't it a bit sad that one needs to read a work written by a foreigner to remind himself of his own country?"Yes, but no, not particularly. Perspective is sometimes valuable.
Nemo wrote: "Isn't it a bit sad that one needs to read a work written by a foreigner to remind himself of his own country?"Distance gives perspective. Sometimes we need someone who lives outside the fishbowl to explain to us how our water got so polluted.
I think so differently about my own country now, having lived abroad.... De Tocqueville produces a similar effect. You can recognize your culture in the pages, viewed in ways you never considered before.
Patrice wrote: "Or maybe how lucky we are!"Definitely. It goes both ways. In either case one needs to step back a bit -- in space or time or both -- to see the big picture. Reading De Tocqueville let us do this, and at this point in history we could certainly use some perspective.
Lily wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Isn't it a bit sad that one needs to read a work written by a foreigner to remind himself of his own country?"Yes, but no, not particularly. Perspective is sometimes valuable."
There are many "perspectives" existing inside the nation already, aren't there? Why do you think adding one more would help?
I've been following this thread but am a bit confused. If dostoevsky won with raw and weighted, shouldn't we read that book? Can we also read detoq? I would love to read that as well. The options are so apples and oranges, and I would find it extremely difficult to argue that either is not a worthy read. Certainly not light summer reads, either of them though but this group is so engaged and intelligent that I would gladly spend a large amount of my reading time on options here. Another thought is if it makes sense to separate the 'literature' options from the others, and possibly run two reads generally, as I suspect especially with the core group here that the lit options are unlikely to prevail.
What it did come up with is this list, as always in alphabetical order by author. Some interesting offerings, including one I'd never heard of.
The Shakespeare entry requires a bit of explanation. The RNG came up with Much Ado About Nothing, which can't by itself constitute a major read, but rather than dismiss it, I decided to put it into the list with the plan that if it should be chosen, we would then vote on three or four more Shakespeare comedies to go with it, spending probably two weeks on each to make a full complement of readings.
Other than that, here's the list for your perusal and discussion.
Adams, The Education of Henry Adams
Chaucer, Troilus and Criseyde
Conrad, Lord Jim
de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
Flaubert, Sentimental Education
Hobbes, Leviathan
Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding
Shakespeare, Much Ado about Nothing plus
Spenser, The Faerie Queene
Trollope, Orley Farm