Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our June group read, The Man in the Queue by Josephine Tey.

This is a general thread, so please no spoilers - there is also a separate spoiler thread.

I was really happy to give Josephine Tey another try, but I really struggled with this book. I can't say I enjoyed it particularly, but I did finish it and I really liked the portrait of the theatre between the wars. It reminded me a little, in that respect, of W. Somerset Maugham (who wrote a lot of very successful plays around that time) and I thought it was more socially interesting than, perhaps, a successful mystery for me.

Josephine Tey is one of the most popular Golden Age authors. The Man in the Queue is the first mystery featuring her series detective Inspector Alan Grant, so should be an ideal way in to reading her novels.

I must admit that before reading this one the only book of hers I'd read was The Daughter of Time many years ago - I don't remember it all that well now.

I've just been looking for some links oh her and found that there is an official website:

http://www.josephinetey.net/

There's also an interesting article here from Vanity Fair looking at how she broke "the rules" and didn't belong to the Detection Club - this does have a brief mention of the plot of Brat Farrar, but the same plot point is mentioned on the back of my copy, so I don't think it can be a major spoiler.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/201...

Susan, I found it a bit of a struggle in the middle too - it is her first mystery though, so I'm guessing the later ones are paced better. I do think the opening is brilliant - the whole idea of the queue is like the opposite to a closed room mystery!

I failed with, "The Daughter of Time," too. Perhaps she just doesn't work for me? I did like the opening scene in the queue and the theatre parts very much.

Judy wrote: "Susan, I found it a bit of a struggle in the middle too - it is her first mystery though, so I'm guessing the later ones are paced better. I do think the opening is brilliant - the whole idea of th..."

I loved the opening as well- I thought she described the atmosphere around the theatre and in the queue so well that one could imagine oneself in it- seeing the sights, the entertainment, taking in the sounds.

I too, thought the atmosphere described of the theatre queue was very well portrayed, as were some other of the scenes later in the book.

That opening scene really brings to life how important theatres were at that time (in London at least), before TV or even talking films were really established. Of course Josephine Tey was a very successful playwright (under the name Gordon Daviot) so she was writing about a world she knew well, and loved. But I think the way she wrote it from the perspective of the playgoers was excellent.

I read this decades ago but have no memory of it, so it is like a first read for me. I like the setup, the seemingly impossible crime. And so few threads to pull! Will be interested to see how things play out.

I'm reading Nicola Upson's series which features Tey as a character and am trying to read the Tey book that corresponds to the Upson book (if that makes sense, each book written by Upson has Tey working on one of her books as part of the plot). For some reason I skipped The Man in the Queue, so this is a reread and an effort to ensure that my Upson series is also up to date.

Carolien wrote: "
I'm reading Nicola Upson's series which features Tey as a character and am trying to read the Tey book that corresponds to the Upson book (if that makes sense, each book written by Upson has Tey working on one of her books as part of the plot). For some reason I skipped The Man in the Queue, so this is a reread and an effort to ensure that my Upson series is also up to date. ."

Hmm I read the first one she wrote (with Tey doing a play) I didn't realise others related to her books!

I like Man in the Queue - having first read it decades ago, and buying a Kindle version. So I'm very sorry I won't be around much in June to discuss it!

I was a bit surprised to see that the people in the queue are so closely packed together that they can lift their feet off the ground.

I remember being able to do this as a teenager attending football in the days when people still stood (funny, I'm not a football fan at all now but sometimes went back then) - but it's harder to imagine it being the case in a queue!

Rosina, the threads will stay open if you have time to post your thoughts later!

Judy wrote: "the whole idea of the queue is like the opposite to a closed room mystery! ..."

that's a nice way of looking at it.

Everyman wrote: "Judy wrote: "the whole idea of the queue is like the opposite to a closed room mystery! ..."

that's a nice way of looking at it."

I never thought of it that way either.

Thanks Everyman and Lady Clementina!

I do find it a bit odd that nobody apparently sees what happens in the queue, though.

Also I've seen one review where someone said that if they queue for a long time to buy tickets for a musical or show usually people in the queue strike up friendships and talk about how many times they have seen it, etc. Might have been different etiquette in the 20s, though.

I found Inspector Grant rather hard to warm to as a character - he doesn't seem to have much personality compared to Wimsey, Campion and others from the era.

Can any Tey fans say if he becomes more interesting in the later books?

I don't care for Campion, but Wimsey is a pearl beyond price, IMHO, I like some of my inspectors to have less personality and flamboyance because the author then seems to focus on the mystery and getting the problem solved instead of using the inspector's quirkiness to divert and add to the number of words that they are writing. I have only read 3 Alan Grant's but I like him as he is. There are so very few writers who can combine truly memorable police characters and still keep the focus on the job. Most of the time the others hop in bed with someone, or go off the deep track and rant and rave, etc. Guess I'm very old fashioned in what I demand from the key characters in my police procedurals.

Judy wrote: "I found Inspector Grant rather hard to warm to as a character - he doesn't seem to have much personality compared to Wimsey, Campion and others from the era.

Can any Tey fans say if he becomes mor..."

This is so far the only Grant book I've read. I found at this stage Tey seemed to just be introducing us to him- we hear his background, see some of his detection skills (and prejudices) but I didn't feel I got to know him enough to make up my mind about whether I liked or disliked him.

I have read two or three Tey novels and never warmed to Grant. I was interested to re-read this, in case I felt more interested, but I didn't really. Not sure whether he had little personality or whether Tey did not want him to distract from the plot?

Perhaps part of the problem with Grant as a character is that he doesn’t seem to have much of a life outside of detecting—just the restaurant he frequents and his landlady.

Writing this, I suddenly wondered—are we supposed to read him as gay? The snappy dressing, the solitary life were probably cultural markers of the so-called “gay lifestyle” in the ’20s (and right up through the ’50s). It has been too long since I read any Tey for me to have enough of a sense of the character.

On Grant, I've just noticed that http://www.josephinetey.net/ mentions he was the "first Scotland Yard Detective - as opposed to the private detective - to be introduced into the mystery writing genre, making his debut in 1929."

This must mean the first one to be the series detective, though, since there are earlier characters like Inspector Lestrade in Sherlock Holmes.

Judy wrote: "On Grant, I've just noticed that http://www.josephinetey.net/ mentions he was the "first Scotland Yard Detective - as opposed to the private detective - to be introduced into the mystery writing ge..."

That's interesting- I didn't know that.

Abigail wrote: "Writing this, I suddenly wondered—are we supposed to read him as gay? The snappy dressing, the solitary life were probably cultural markers of the so-called “gay lifestyle” in the ’20s (and right up through the ’50s)."

I've just come an article by Val McDermid which explores the same suggestion - it also sounds as if Grant becomes a lot more interesting as a character in the course of the series. This article does discuss some incidents and themes from later books in the series, but I'm not sure if any of these are spoilers in mystery terms. They do give away a lot about Grant's emotional development.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/auth...

Interesting article, Judy—thank you!

Abigail wrote: "Interesting article, Judy—thank you!"

Thanks for sharing.

Susan wrote: "I was really happy to give Josephine Tey another try, but I really struggled with this book. I can't say I enjoyed it particularly, but I did finish it and I really liked the portrait of the theatr..."

It's some time since I read a Josaphine Tey novel that it was a pleasure to re read. I thin that her books invoke a wonderful sense of time and place. Must say the 'The Daughter of Time' is one of my favorite novels.

Judy wrote: "I found Inspector Grant rather hard to warm to as a character - he doesn't seem to have much personality compared to Wimsey, Campion and others from the era.

Can any Tey fans say if he becomes mor..."
Please continue reading as Inspector Grant does become more developed as the books progress. I think he is a little like Colin Dexter's Morse. Josephine Tey slowly develops the character throughout the series. It's a great pity, I think ,that there are only seven books.

I just got back from Scotland with the Inspector, and really enjoyed that whole section of the book. I understand that Tey lived in Scotland, and you can feel the richness of her familiarity with the people and the landscapes. I also like the interactions of Grant and Lamont.

Abigail wrote: "I just got back from Scotland with the Inspector, and really enjoyed that whole section of the book. I understand that Tey lived in Scotland, and you can feel the richness of her familiarity with t..."

So did I- the Scotland section and the opening at the theatre were my favourites- her descriptions in these are really good.

It is interesting that Kath says that "I think he is a little like Colin Dexter's Morse." I tried a couple of the Morse books and never really enjoyed them and I wonder if anyone else feels there is a similarity?

Susan wrote: "It is interesting that Kath says that "I think he is a little like Colin Dexter's Morse." I tried a couple of the Morse books and never really enjoyed them and I wonder if anyone else feels there i..."

Perhaps I should have explained better. I think the comparison between Grant and Morse is that both Colin Dexter and Josephine Tey develop the two detectives slowly over the books. Morse and Grant have very different personalities and detecion methods.
I enjoyed the Morse books. The character in the books is somewhat different than the TV character portrayed by John Thaw - albeit John Thaw was excellent is showing the conflicts within the character.

Oh, I get what you mean, Kath. I have read a later Tey, but I never really warmed to Grant (or Morse!). To be fair, I haven't seen the TV adaptation, which may have been different.

Hilary wrote: "Carolien wrote: "
I'm reading Nicola Upson's series which features Tey as a character and am trying to read the Tey book that corresponds to the Upson book (if that makes sense, each book written b..."

Thank you Hilary. I'd not heard of Nicola Upson but her boos sound interesting. Amazon here I come!

Judy wrote: "I found Inspector Grant rather hard to warm to as a character - he doesn't seem to have much personality compared to Wimsey, Campion and others from the era..."

I was surprised when I first read this comment and, having just re-read To Love and Be Wise and The Man in the Queue, I'm still surprised. I find him very likeable. Compared to Wimsey and Campion he may seem understated, but I think he's more plausible than they are (much as I love LPW!).

Also, as a police officer, there's a limit to how eccentric he can be. He's already able to be more interesting than most because of his private income. But because we're privy to his thoughts and feelings I did get to know him and like him.

Abigail wrote: "Perhaps part of the problem with Grant as a character is that he doesn’t seem to have much of a life outside of detecting—just the restaurant he frequents and his landlady.

Writing this, I suddenly wondered—are we supposed to read him as gay?..."

Don't forget his love of horse-riding and various different places. But of course the focus of the book is on his work, and so we do only see hints of his other interests.

As I was re-reading the books I kept in mind the question as to whether we are supposed to read Grant as gay. I think I can say pretty definitely that the author did not intend us to read him that way. There are a number of comments about women which are not consistent with his being portrayed as gay.

I think it is possible that he could be read as bisexual, partly because he does notice when men are beautiful, and he uses that term. However, if he is, I doubt if he realises it himself.

Kath wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Carolien wrote: "
I'm reading Nicola Upson's series which features Tey as a character and am trying to read the Tey book that corresponds to the Upson book (if that makes sense, each..."


Oh dear! My previous comments should read. 'her books sound interesting' not 'her boos sound interesting'!!

I'd be interested to hear people's views of Nicola Upson's books. I have to admit to being prejudiced against what could be seen as selling books making use of Josephine Tey's name and reputation, so I've never read any of them.

So , what are they like?

I read one of the Nicola Upson books, a while ago now I admit. I quite enjoyed it, even though I don't particularly like Tey's books, which is odd!

You’re right about the other interests, HJ, I overlooked the fishing as well!

Abigail wrote: "You’re right about the other interests, HJ, I overlooked the fishing as well!"

Don't forget about the fishing! It features in other Grant books, too.

I wonder if people still go fly fishing the way they used to in the 1920s and 30s? It crops up in quite a few old mysteries, especially where there's a group of keen fishermen staying in a hotel, or living somewhere. Scales of Justice by Ngaio Marsh comes to mind.

Fly-fishing is a very big deal in Wyoming and Montana—mostly the wealthy, who have special resorts for it. And I sometimes see fly-fishermen in California, along the few rivers where the salmon still run.

Susan wrote: "I read one of the Nicola Upson books, a while ago now I admit. I quite enjoyed it, even though I don't particularly like Tey's books, which is odd!"

I'm the other way round - I like JT's books and don't like the Nicola Upson ones :-)

I've just started this as it was one Tey not on my shelf. It arrived yesterday. I thoroughly enjoy Tey and like Grant. I like that the book focuses on his work, and we get to know him through his thought processes. I also enjoy the fact he really respects the talents of the constables under him.

Abigail wrote: "Fly-fishing is a very big deal in Wyoming and Montana—mostly the wealthy, who have special resorts for it. And I sometimes see fly-fishermen in California, along the few rivers where the salmon sti..."

You see a lot of fly fishing in Idaho, too, along the borders of Montana/Wyoming, but also in much of the rest of the state, wherever the rivers are quiet enough!

I am reading this now as I enjoyed the Inspector Grant character so much in The Singing Sands that I decided to go back and start the series. I think I like Grant more that Wimsey or Campion-he just seems more real and more sensible. I also enjoyed the Scottish section, and having spent a little time in the Highlands find Tey's descriptions so evocative and also very similar to how I've felt when travelling there. I think I'm going to be sorry that there where so few mysteries written by her!

Karlyne wrote: "Abigail wrote: "Fly-fishing is a very big deal in Wyoming and Montana—mostly the wealthy, who have special resorts for it. And I sometimes see fly-fishermen in California, along the few rivers wher..."

I see them fly-fishing here in western North Carolina, too. And they give lessons.

I'd read a few of Tey's Inspector Grant novels before I acquired The Man in the Queue, and I feel like he's not quite the same person in this first novel as he later became. Just physically, he's described in the later novels as noticeably tall, whereas in this one, there's no mention of that. I think Tey was definitely feeling her way into crime novels in her first attempt.

I agree, he didn't seem to have much personality in the first book.