Our Shared Shelf discussion
Intersectional Feminism
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Cat Calling
Sara, the mainly women character can be described with values. And one of the value is also fear, which he operate, as I have described before that mainly men character operates sexual desires. But, I have only described character, which can be also found with men, and also with women. The theory that I am spreading is objective to all people. So we don't find every value only with women and other only with men. No, it can occur randomly the same value as it is fear with women and with men. It is only important, what character you are. And what you're describing with yourself that is fear, it is actually not. You cannot describe fear with your character and then mirror it to other people, as those people do not sense fear the same.
One more thing, there is no character on this planet with only good virtues. Every character has his advantages or disadvantages; where disadvantages comes in forward when people do not accept his own body and world, and vice versa. Those who do is there very little.
Self-conscious does not mean to be different ;) It means that you're you :)
I think, telling people to simply accept catcalling as a compliment, whether you mean they should see it that way, or pretended to see it that way, doesn’t show much empathy for the recipient. It reminds me of the coach, whose solution for any injury was to “walk it off.” You have a broken leg; walk it off. You get kicked in the… shins; walk it off. You have a concussion, you’ve fractured your skull, you’re bleeding from the ears and you can’t see straight; walk it off. It’s a dismissive attitude that doesn’t take the victim's feelings, or injury, into consideration. The only people I’ve ever heard this excuse from, always seem to be the people who are the biggest perpetrators of this offense.In my youth, I worked as an independent contractor with my brother-in-law. He was one of these people who would extend such “compliments” to women on the street. I never realized this until the first time I drove with him, when he called out to a young lady from the open window of a moving vehicle. Aside from the fact she probably only heard “ha-,” I heard the entire thing, and I found it rather objectionable. Needless to say, he knew enough not to compliment women in that manner while I was within earshot.
From my experience, from being around such people, I can honestly say that catcalling is anything but a compliment. It’s about somebody yelling something to someone they don’t know, about something they have no business commenting on. It is one person’s attempt to lift themselves up by tearing someone else down. There is a time and place for legitimate compliments, such as a bar, a party, or some other social gathering, screaming sexually suggestive or derogatory statements at a woman walking down the street doesn’t really qualify as a compliment.
In reality, there are probably a lot of reasons why men actually catcall, but from my observation, it had little to do with the subject of their, so-called complements, and more to do with their own self-esteem. They use it as a way to raise the perception of their masculinity among their peers, and even among strangers, at the expense of their victims. By intimidating the “weaker” sex, they, in turn, become “stronger,” because that’s what it is; intimidation. In the end, it never seemed to matter what the women did. If they accepted it, they were harassed more, if they ignored it, they were harassed even more, and if they retaliated, if they confronted, then they were laughed at and harassed behind their backs, long after they walked away. Anything to booster the harasser’s masculinity. They do this, because they feel they can. They cite freedom of speech, but freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. Unfortunately, the harassers don’t feel the consequences of their words, it’s too often the victims who bear that burden.
I won’t go into how catcalling effects women, since I think they have expressed themselves quite admirably already. I’ll simply add, I’ve seen some of the results, and I can tell you it’s not always something that you can simply “walk off.”
Viatororis wrote: " They use it as a way to raise the perception of their masculinity among their peers, and even among strangers, at the expense of their victims. By intimidating the “weaker” sex, they, in turn, become “stronger,” because that’s what it is; intimidation. In the end, it never seemed to matter what the women did. If they accepted it, they were harassed more, if they ignored it, they were harassed even more, and if they retaliated, if they confronted, then they were laughed at and harassed behind their backs, long after they walked away...."This matches my experience. It is about intimidation and about posturing. It is not about me as a person, its about me as an object and it doesn't much matter what I do in response, because I'm just the thing they are using to act out their chest beating and attention seeking. Well said.
I think the way to deal with this is similar to the way to deal with bullying. Not surprising, since they are similar. It can't just be up to the target of bullying or harassment or intimidation to stop it. Its really important for the bystanders and the bully's co workers and friends and family to speak up and say hey this isn't okay, what are you doing? To go to the target and apologize and ask if he or she is okay, to stand with them. Its creating a social climate where a person who bullies and intimidates others knows the behavior is shameful and not supported by the people around them.
I wonder if a smart media campaign like the campaigns to reduce drunk driving would help. Those have been very effective in the US, and I think there are some similar factors. Drunk driving and street harassment are both social behaviors, a lot of the people who do both are young single men, there's a lot of minimizing (oh I'm not really drunk, oh she doesn't really mind). There's even a similar tendency to glamorize the behavior as somehow macho or cool or tough. Just as "friends don't let friends drive drunk," maybe friends also don't let friends make asses of themselves in public.
A county in England has declared catcalling and other street harassment to be a hate crime: http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/.... It will be interesting to see whether this actually results in a reduction.
Carolyn wrote: "A county in England has declared catcalling and other street harassment to be a hate crime: http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/......"Either way I'm happy that it's sent out a clear signal that street harassment (amongst other forms of misogynistic behaviour) is wrong.
I wish the US would follow suit! Of course, most of our senators probably engage in this sort of behavior...
Alexis wrote: "I wish the US would follow suit! Of course, most of our senators probably engage in this sort of behavior..." It is easy to interpret that government has everything in his hands. But still, what about people? :) Do they want to do something or to change? The people do the same as government, they fight against something, that they think it is false in society. In reality they fight against something that is the result of society rules (and are probably subconscious causes.Gnome Claire *Wishes she was as cool as Gnome Ann* wrote: "Carolyn wrote: "A county in England has declared catcalling and other street harassment to be a hate crime: http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/......"
One law more and one way to not accept those people (as people). The more laws there is, the more people will be oppressed. Sorry to tell you that, but there are still people born, which does not know, law, order, time, rules, etc, etc, etc, ... in their head, but because of all those "waypoints" in their life, they are pushed into a corner. But every human has to live by it's character.
Emma wrote: "Bunny wrote: "I wonder if a smart media campaign like the campaigns to reduce drunk driving would help. Those have been very effective in the US, and I think there are some similar factors. Drunk d..."
Those and many more similar campaign exist on the world. But they do not have a larger effect. If we want to address just two of those mentioned problems, we have to start by it's roots.
Emma wrote: "This matches my experience. It is about intimidation and about posturing. It is not about me as a person, its about me as an object and it doesn't much matter what I do in response, because I'm just the thing they are using to act out their chest beating and attention seeking. Well said."
If you're trying to address cat calling, aware others about this, then you're only letting them know the common meaning about cat calling. If you're against something you're creating a tension. If you're for good, then stay for good. It is the same that we try to fight to gain a peace. This does not work. If you're for peace, be for peace, and DON'T oppress other who are not.
Bunny wrote: "This matches my experience. It is about intimidation and about posturing. It is not about me as a person, its about me as an object and it doesn't much matter what I do in response, because I'm just the thing they are using to act out their chest beating and attention seeking. Well said."
Still, if you're trying to change something, you can still change yourself to gain more self-appreciation, self-esteem and that you'll be able to take cat calling with the laugh and go on. In the society there is a lot more things connected that you'll change all those cat callers, but I am giving you only the start point which is one step closer that something is changed in society. One by one and there should be many more in a while ;) You cannot change others, but you're always giving them your own example and if someone do something that does not answer to your thoughts, you still have to accept him, but you don't have to socialise with him/her.
Bunny, there is difference between drunk driving and street harasment and I believe that this exposes young single men. This also does not mean that every single men can be like that, this does not mean that if those men would have a girlfriend, and definitely this does not mean that they do not have money to afford all what they want. The problem with people who drink is that they does not accept his own world (psychologically allegory), and those who are creating street harrasement are way up in the psychological problems.
Tadej wrote: "Alexis wrote: "I wish the US would follow suit! Of course, most of our senators probably engage in this sort of behavior..." It is easy to interpret that government has everything in his hands. But..."It's really not on the cat-callers to decide that cat-calling is a compliment. The women on the receiving end of it are telling you it's offensive and threatening. Would you tell someone who'd had a racist/homophobic/religionist obscenity screamed at them across the street that it was their attitude that needed changing?
Street Harassment starts at cat-calling but so often escalates- if the woman doesn't take it the way her harassed wants, she might find herself insulted/threatened/followed/attacked. It's difficult to take anything with a laugh when you know that person might be about to something horrendous to you.
And men expect all different responses from catcalling- some guys expect to be ignored and will call insult you if you don't ignore them "Wow, you must be desperate. What kind of dumb bitch actually responds to that? Did your dad beat you or something?", others get angry at being ignored and follow up with "Bitch. Aren't you even going to say thank you?". You say laugh but I'm sure there are guys who'd take offence at being laughed at.
There's no good response a woman can give and we shouldn't be obliged to give the appropriate response to unwanted comments. I see no reason why I should accept that it's okay for random men to shout out random comments to random women.
Cat-calling is a sign of entitlement- its telling the women I don't care about you as a person but I'm going to shout at you, I don't care that you might find it threatening I expect you to de with my unwanted comments gracefully.
I always considered cat-calling as one of the most degrading and disgusting things a person can do to another. Just thinking that a stranger being shouted across the street might take whatever you're saying as a compliment is beyond me. Unfortunately this is still considered a way to affirm one's supremacy over another and we need a big cultural change to dismantle these behaviors. We live in a society that values domination way more than equality. Everything is competition and the only way to emerge is to defeat someone else. Cat-calling is an expression of that: it's making sure you remember who's in charge and it's absolutely disgusting.
As a man, this never happened to me and i can only imagine how violated a woman might feel after being cat-called. I'm truly sorry for whoever has had to endure this feeling.
I seldom comment, let alone follow up on a comment, since I don’t like to get caught in the mire of opposing arguments, but in this case, I felt it was justified. I read one person’s opinion and, although I respect the viewpoint, I feel they are overlooking a crucial detail. They’re basically saying, that a person who is confident and self-assured, won’t feel the effects of catcalling, that all they need to do is believe in themselves, and they’ll be able to simply brush it off and go on with their lives. Now, if I miss interpreted the position, I do apologize, but what I feel is not being taken into consideration is consistency.Take one of the hardest stones, a diamond, and strike it with a little hammer every day. Eventually, that diamond will crack. It may not be on the first day, or the second, but rest assured, in time, it will crack. That’s what catcalling is, a little hammer that strikes the victim every… single… day. Even if it seems innocuous, a simple word, a phrase, even a gesture that should be brushed aside without a second thought, over time it will eventually penetrate the armor of even the most resilient person.
This is what catcallers don’t see. This is what the people who dismiss catcalling don’t realize. If you have to experience it every day, it will wear down your self-esteem, it will chip away at your resolve and fill you with doubt. No matter how much you believe in yourself, it will eventually affect you.
Everybody, regardless of gender or what gender they identify with, should have the right to walk down the street without being harassed. It’s as simple as that. Unfortunately, there will always be people who don’t understand, or just don’t care. Dismissing it, by saying the recipient is too thin-skinned or needs to have more confidence in themselves, is just reverting back to the tried and true practice of blaming the victim. Is it possible that these people have such low opinions of themselves because, in their minds, they are reminded of it every time they walk down the street? Sadly, the only way to curb catcalling and street harassment is if more men experienced it firsthand. Only then would they truly understand.
There is a twitter account I started following a couple of years ago, when I reluctantly joined the twitter-race. The name of it is @EverydaySexism. It has been a real eye opener. When you read tweets from women who have been harassed on the streets since the age of 10 or 11, it makes you realize the importance of educating people of the effect of catcalling.
You don't have to approve supremacy to anyone, if you have enough self-esteem, and you don't need to convince anyone, what your thoughts were, because in your own world, you don't compete with anyone. Making sure, that you believe your thoughts is also a individual deal. Everybody, regardless of gender or what gender they identify with, should have the right to walk down the street without being harassed. It’s as simple as that.
It is, simple as that. But currently we are going into opposite direction.
This is what catcallers don’t see. This is what the people who dismiss catcalling don’t realize. If you have to experience it every day, it will wear down your self-esteem, it will chip away at your resolve and fill you with doubt. No matter how much you believe in yourself, it will eventually affect you.
This is however not true. True self-esteem is something that 95% people have not experienced. And because everyone wants to be like everyone else, not as he or she individual thinks, this would rather be very hard to gain. The problems are two: society have his own rules and if you try to disobey, the society ejects you, the second, pleasing in front of others, this is what we all do when different people are in front of us. Instead of having our own meaning, and say it clearly and loudly with arguments, we just confirm the co-talker.
Last friday i was with a friend who is a few years younger in a church's dance and we were in a classroom eating pizza ( she had a headache so we went somewhere where the music was low) and a man approach to us and start to make us a lot of uncomfortable questions and comments. And that was it, i was terrified because i'm 16 and my friend is 13 and that man was like 30. And i swear to god , we he went away i was so angry , because not even in a church we can be peaceful or safe
Tadej, if we are to accept your world as reality, then the streets are only safe for 5% of the people. Only 5% of the people have achieved that level of confidence to be able to walk down the street without feeling the effects of harassment. Sadly, you may be right, but, to assume the rest of the people must either stay in indoors or learn to “suck-it-up” is not a solution. Ignoring a problem and hoping it goes away simply does not work.If a man stepped out of his house and gets punched in the head, every single day, would the solution, to his problem, be to duck? Obviously, if he ducked, he wouldn’t feel the effects of the assault; but is that really the answer? Shouldn’t he be able to step out of his house without being assaulted? Wouldn’t it be better to confront the problem, to seek a lasting solution so he didn’t have to keep ducking? It’s the same with street harassment. Wouldn’t it be better to seek the cause of it, and end it, rather than just grin and bear it, so that everybody can walk down the street, not just those who have achieved that enlightened level of confidence? Confidence is not an impenetrable armor. No matter how sure you are of yourself, how strong your self-esteem is, constant harassment will eventually wear you down. The armored will crack. Yes, it’s true, some people can endure it longer than others, some people can hide it better than others, some people may even develop a thicker skin because of it; but what of the people who don’t? What do you tell the children who are on the receiving end of the harassment? Do you tell them, this is what’s going to happen to you for the rest of your life, so just deal with it?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not so naive to think there is a simple solution to this problem, there seldom is, but I do know that placing the responsibility of dealing with it, squarely on the backs of the victims, is not the answer. That is just a way for people to justify their inactions. Because it doesn’t happen to them, because they don’t experience the pain, the fear, the anxiety, it doesn’t matter, it’s not important, and that’s the opinion we have to change. When you stop taking the victim’s feelings into consideration, you become no better than the person who hurt them in the first place. You might as well be hurling insults alongside the harassers. Only when we get more people to realize that this is a problem, that is does actually affect people, then maybe we can start looking for a way to end it, until then, it’s all about education.
Mod
But i do have a question for the girls or women of the group.
While i have never experienced or witnessed men cat calling to the point where they start to get aggressive or mean i can recall as a teen witnessing other boys whistling or cat calling teen girls while they pass by in their cars. But the girls themselves would yell back and smile as it seemed they liked the attention.
So do you think this behavior is something that should be addressed on both ends of the spectrum? I mean, as a teen boy i could imagine if you got a response that was positive from your cat calling that it would send a message that maybe some girls like this kind of thing and thus wouldnt be much of a deterrent. If some girls do like the glaring, whistling, cat calling because they like the attention than what is the answer to this problem for women who dont want that kind of attention?
Quite the legitimate question, James!! I know I've had it myself...when I grew older! Not that I would have enjoyed any sort of harassment when I was a teen, but I'm sure some small part of me would have enjoyed the attention from guys my age. You know, the part that needs a self-esteem boost that day.
...In fact, I cannot say I don't have those days nowadays sometimes! It's a tricky question, but as some members mentioned above, maybe there's this line which of course is different for anybody until which you can view the whole thing as a compliment. If someone who is more or less my own age looks at me for a couple secs and smiles, or even says something very mild, like, 'you're cute' or things like that...that is OK for me. I would not do it because I would die from embarrassment, haha, but that's me. Now, if they take it further or start heavy from the beginning, that's where it gets ugly.
Luckily I haven't had too many cases of cat-calling. It does irritate me a lot when they're elderly men, and in those cases I do answer back and I'm pretty, uh, nasty myself. Well, not nasty, but you know what I mean. Doesn't hurt that I know it's safer with them, I guess, but I do. I tell them that they should be ashamed to be leeching after a girl who could easily be their granddaughter and that they're disgusting old pervs, and leave.
I would say that, as always, communication is key. We have to talk to our children, pupils and minors. We have to teach them the word 'respect', and that it goes in both directions. It's not that difficult if we, well, cut the bs short already. Sadly, that's too much to ask from us humans. Or is it? ;)
James wrote: "So do you think this behavior is something that should be addressed on both ends of the spectrum? I mean, as a teen boy i could imagine if you got a response that was positive from your cat calling that it would send a message that maybe some girls like this kind of thing and thus wouldnt be much of a deterrent. If some girls do like the glaring, whistling, cat calling because they like the attention than what is the answer to this problem for women who dont want that kind of attention?"Either you cat call a woman, who appreciates the attention, or you cat call a woman, who absolutely doesn't and who will find you repulsive because you're objectifying her and invading her privacy due to your own needs alone. It's up to you to decide whether you wish to risk being perceived as harrassing another person, because despite being a woman, she's also a person.
The person, who talked about "free speech" upthread, I can't even. Free speech is synonymous to "I can behave as much of an ass as possible and nobody is allowed to stop me" aka "I didn't learn how to be polite and kind, but can spew whatever crap I wish without consequences." When it's done successfully at the top (presidential candidates hating on each other instead of behaving with dignity and constructively), one can hardly expect more from average citizens.
Emma wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Either you cat call a woman, who appreciates the attention, or you cat call a woman, who absolutely doesn't and who will find you repulsive because you're objectifying her and invadi..."You're welcome. I can't take credit for this, though:
"Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings."
- Cheris Kramarae
Yeah, I don't know about a law either. Would it really help?
Serena wrote: "Yeah, I don't know about a law either. Would it really help?"It would send a message that people deserve better than to be harassed at random hours in random places.
It would also send a message that we are considering the needs of the target rather than those of the person, who is aiming.
See, everything isn't always about me, but in this world, it is polite to consider others, and everything isn't about catering to my needs at all times. This is why it boggles my mind why some people think it's acceptable to yell at strangers that they're fat or that it's perfectly okay to harass breastfeeding mothers or people, whose clothing is different than our own. It's all in the same concept that My Needs are more important than Your Needs.
I say give tickets for cat calling. It's a witness-able form of harassment and could be ticketed like jaywalking or parking in a red zone. It should diminish the behavior pretty quickly.
Mod
I'm so sorry that you were cat called Ana! You are worth so much more than that! Hugs!
Mod
I'm so sorry Ana! Glad you were able to get the positive side of that. The problem is theirs, not yours!
Ana wrote: "But i do have a question for the girls or women of the group. While i have never experienced or witnessed men cat calling to the point where they start to get aggressive or mean i can recall as a..."
This behaviour comes from not accepting own world (body and perception of view on life). That means that every human that believes that lives in the same world as others, believes what others are showing, telling, believing. This also means that their internal desires are met only with signs from common world. This comes in most cases as a reaction for others, how good she looks, how accepted she is, how nice body she has. This is only a proof for others, where in reality, (maybe) she even does not enjoy those signs.
Viatororis wrote: "Tadej, if we are to accept your world as reality, then the streets are only safe for 5% of the people. Only 5% of the people have achieved that level of confidence to be able to walk down the stree..."
You're understanding that false. Those 5% cannot be kept indoor and learn how to become confident with themselves as this is impossible, and then you turn the meaning that I propose, into sucking-it-up. This is not true. If someone is something aggressively wanting from you, this is of course something that you should reject. Because in the opposite way, you do not respect yourself. In truth you have to respect yourself and at the same time others. If someone is not respecting you, this does not bring to your "world" any harm, but you do what is in your power and not socialise with such people.
The punches that you'll get, is your own fault, because you did not respect your own world, and defend it. Reject what in your own world is not welcome and find, what you love.
I do not say that we should do nothing against cat callers, but I am in the same time giving you the best solution that is out there. We can oppress cat callers with the law, but, this is one rule more and one rule more to dissatisfied society. I am just looking for solutions that will corespond to my and other worlds.
I do not get you wrong, I also know the solution is far more bigger, also the same dimension as gender equality, as it has the same roots, but I am here giving a people who are the victims the power, and am less against "something", as this leads to more tension only.
But, if you're changing others, then I do have a different opinion about that. No matter if people are satisfied (5%) or dissatisfied (95%) with themselves, there is no rule in any sacred scriptures, that allows you to change them. But there is a way. Be what you think it is good for you, and you'll gain learners and spread the truth. Unconscious. As every human (world), takes what likes ;) And do with your own behaviour and knowledge impress many people, and many would follow and then we change the world slowly ;)
Tadej wrote: "Ana wrote: "But i do have a question for the girls or women of the group. While i have never experienced or witnessed men cat calling to the point where they start to get aggressive or mean i can..."
Tadej, I got cat called the other day, I was crossing the road and he swerved towards me as if he was going to hit me and shouted at me- am I supposed to take someone pretending they're about to hit me as a compliment?
You're totally missing the point- cat calling so often escalates into something unpleasant it's difficult to see it as anything but a threat.
Tadej wrote: "The punches that you'll get, is your own fault, because you did not respect your own world, and defend it. Reject what in your own world is not welcome and find, what you love."Apologies in advance for crude language, but what the everloving fuck, Tadej? This drivel right here is absolutely unacceptable. Have you lost your mind? How dare you blame the innocent for the shit that others are giving them? Shame on you.
Aglaea wrote: "Tadej wrote: "The punches that you'll get, is your own fault, because you did not respect your own world, and defend it. Reject what in your own world is not welcome and find, what you love."Apol..."
Before you jump down his throat i would make an attempt to try and get him to clear his posts up. Im not sure what his native tongue is but ive been having a hard time deciphering what he has been trying to say because its not coming through very clear and thus i have not been reading too much into it as its all very unclear.
If i had to venture to guess, i think his general point with this is that while we should continue to fight cat calling/harassment he is also saying that he feels women play into it when they respond in any manner which he may feel gives the cat callers "power" because they have accomplished what they wanted too in terms of getting a response.
I think his stance is he believes or feels that women who are self confident will strip away the satisfaction of those who mean to put them down by simply letting roll off their shoulders instead of responding.
Now unfortunately in other cases (such as the one described by Claire) where the harasser was actually in the process of doing something far more harmful with his car that without a doubt should not go unaddressed. Whether or not this is what Tadej is meaning to get at im not sure but that is my best guess based on his posting style and grammar.
Never the less, i dont think attacking him the way you did is very kosher, especially when its completely obvious that his English is not translating well on the web. At least give the guy a chance to clear up any misconceptions before attacking him like you did. IMO
James, really?I was abused. Psychologically abused. Cat calling is just one form albeit miniature of abuse. It's harassment, unwelcome attention, invasion of privacy. It's nasty shit, okay. But I've experienced much much worse than that, and not in a million years did I participate in this group with the idea that I from a so-called feminist would have to hear that because I wasn't strong enough at the time, any shit I got was my own fault. Nobody deserves that. Nobody. And the bolded part is loud and clear, so there's absolutely no need to defend someone, who puts blame or responsibility on the recipient, when it's the jerk, who harasses, who is at fault.
His English reads very well and I believe I understand exactly what it is that he's attempting to say in the rest of his comment, but the stuff I quoted is just that, drivel, and there's nothing anyone can say that will make me think otherwise, ever.
I'm sick of people speaking before thinking, sick of them not defending the weak parties, sick of excuses. It's just not good enough, but to have someone put blame on the victim of cat calling is appalling. Substitute abuse or something else undesirable, and it's still drivel. Victim blaming does not belong in this group, but if someone thinks it does, I'm gladly out.
Gnome Claire *Wishes she was as cool as Gnome Ann* wrote: "Tadej wrote: "Ana wrote: "But i do have a question for the girls or women of the group. While i have never experienced or witnessed men cat calling to the point where they start to get aggressive..."
I didn't meant that. You should take with the attitude of compliment, not as a compliment. There is a important difference between these two.
Sorry to all, it is a little bit too hard to explain myself clearly in English ;) I am speaking a different language, which is one of the 5th most accurates languages on the planet, and English lacks a lot of words and is giving me a hard time with explaining everything on a long go.
James don't worry, there is a lot of people that understand me wrong. Before I started to looking for the truth, I probably would have the same meaning about cat callers as Aglaea has, and I know that we two have a different knowledge, and I accept that, that is why am I not hurt from her side :) Aglaea, I do NOT blame victim, I want to make them more resistant to those attacks, how this should be bad?? :) Oh, cmmon? :) A little change in thinking for you?
My way of looking on the world is very different, and also much more logical as it explains numerous human problems :) Sometimes I dare to say something ;) With any solution here, I see no big changes, we only rotate in circles. We create solutions that are consequently creating more negativism. I want to represent the solution that will actually work and bring actual results. I have had enough observations on actions in my years, that have not changed anything.
Aglaea wrote: "and there's nothing anyone can say that will make me think otherwise, ever."Then i guess there is nothing left to discuss.
Tadej wrote: "Aglaea, I do NOT blame victim, I want to make them more resistant to those attacks, how this should be bad?? :) Oh, cmmon? :) A little change in thinking for you?"But you are indirectly blaming the victim. Can't you see? You just backt-racked from having directly blamed the victim to 'only' indirectly blaming the victim, because all your comments in this thread invalidate over and over someone's subjective experience of cat calling. When you keep telling women we should 'rise above' and become strong, you do it such that you shoot down any and all real-life experiences. You don't see that?
It's all fine and dandy for a person like me, who has been through much worse, so I don't take it personally per se, but would it disgust me? Absolutely. Would it demand my energy to remove the nasty experience from my mind again? Yes. Who says I should have to deal with the cat calling, though, even when I personally rise above? Who says his need is more important than mine? The message you keep repeating says that we should focus on our own reaction, whether you realise it or not. And it's offensive.
How should a school girl react, when she is only taking her first steps into womanhood? How should your daughter deal with it when you tell her to rise above, even when she's disgusted beyond words at the gross attention she got from men of her father's age? She should just suck it up and work on herself, right?
Why not invest all this energy, currently spent on convincing women how we should change, on the real problem - men whose egos are not healthy?
Tadej wrote: ".My way of looking on the world is very different,"I can certainly understand that. While im not sure i agree with everything that you have tried to lay out i would like to think that if we are going to work together as men and women that we need to have open discourse and open minds with the ability to look at some of these issues objectively coming up with various ways to combat the problem at hand. I pretty much hold back most of my opinions, outlooks, observations, etc because of the very backlash you just faced. Its just hard to make progress when the door constantly gets shut in your face. But, such as life i guess. lol
James wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "and there's nothing anyone can say that will make me think otherwise, ever."Then i guess there is nothing left to discuss."
Not on accepting victim blaming, no. I'll never accept it, but I'm interested in preventing it from happening.
By the way, invalidating another person's subjective experiences is categorised as microaggression, which is super unkind. There is lots of microaggression in several comments.
Tadej wrote: "Gnome Claire *Wishes she was as cool as Gnome Ann* wrote: "Tadej wrote: "Ana wrote: "But i do have a question for the girls or women of the group. While i have never experienced or witnessed men ..."
Tadej he swerved towards me and pretended he was going to hit me as I crossed the road! It was scary! I'm not taking that as anything but a threat.
Claire, yes, it was a threat, definately, I agree! You should protect yourself and reject something that you do not want from someone. That's it. You must understand that I can speak here with you, victims, I can give you a advice or two, to become more self-conscious, confident. I can try to make you more courageous ;) I am not judging how the situation looks. I am taking people as individuals and as worlds, which have a different priorities. We also have a common meaning for everything today. But for me it is known that some people feel fear, some people have only picture about it, and some people only have a logical reaction (learned from others) and don't feel fear at all. And that just fear.
Aglaea, I am indirectly blaming the victim, and this is because of your own judgment (because you see it this way). Because you stand on the victims side and cheer for her. If you take the situation as it reads, then you know who victim and who cause is. I am here encouraging the victims, as no-one is born with high self-esteem, but sadly no-one is wanting to learn those values in modern world. Learning today only means that we have some confirmation, degree, title, it is everything that others would like to see from us. But really confident can be the one, who does not to proof anything to others and at the same time, feels good in his body ;) That is the confidence that I am talking about. Without strings attached to common world. Do not understand me false, this means that you always can do whatever you want, gain degree that you want, but only out of your wishes, not because of others.
I am not saying that any women who was cat called is not harrassed or victim or somehow else damaged! I am saying that those women should do whatever in his power is to overcome those feelings, when they meet someone, that they would understand, why they are doing this and they instead of feeling fear, would feel regret for them. This is because I do not stand on one or another side, because other side are people too, but this is because I have women who are being harrassed here, and I can type directly to them, and make them courageous to stand against such perception. And even if this will repeat, those women will be more powerfull, it will have more self-esteem, they will look on situation far different, than before. Of course it is important to stay safe and to avoid or to flee of anyone, who tries something physical. And yes, this what I am doing is completely lacking of changing the other side. Maybe this bothers you, because I do not blame someone here?
Once again, I am for good, not against bad - as this creates more tension. Our behaviour, feelings, welfare and state which we feel, is only the tension between values (in our head). This is also the answer why is there not a constant time of positivism in our life. But if you learn to live with values (original knowledge), you starts to getting better and better, and your life gets more and more beautiful ;) I am not here to explain the book Secret, but I have a actual formula to happiness :)
My theory is only positivistic and I believe there does not exist any of it on the world. So yes, Aglaea you can read in my words "in-between lines" that this was everything your fault. But in reality, for you, it is different. I am sorry if I have offend you somehow, as I believe you have had really hard experience!
Oh and one thing, microaggression is only one word too many in this world, as everything can be described with words. For the truth it is strange if someone agree to someone else and the world become a lie if many agree with the same thing. So, If I do not agree with you, I believe your word is microaggression, but remember that suits only to you and probably you will be many times microaggressed from me ;)
Tad
Tadej, I don't think you understand my reasoning at all. There are strong people and there are insecure people. It's your job as a human being to take care of in particular the less secure among us, and this includes going to the root of the problem, people harassing others - NOT people being insecure.This means understanding that when someone is still insecure, and someone else is somehow taking advantage of them, their subjective experience is as valid as yours, no matter what you think about it.
When you invalidate another's experience, you tell them they shouldn't act or feel a certain way, which is your standard response in this thread. And you've managed to repeatedly step into actual victim blaming, too.
Should everyone work on becoming the best versions of themselves, including as strong as they can become? Preferably, but that's my lifestyle choice only.
But since there's no way to measure when someone is as strong as they can be, and there is no binary scale with "not strong" and "strong" as only options, but it indeed is a floating scale, we accept personal differences. People also come from different backgrounds, meaning they will get stronger and gain more life wisdom at various degrees in various moments of life, and no person is any less than another.
We will also be tried and tested in different ways, so even though someone can be extremely strong in a particular area, they might be insecure and feel vulnerable in another. And you do not get to be judge and juror when and where the insecurities happen, when they are inappropriate or something else according to your own standards.
Your lecturing others isn't helpful, but it is rude and harmful. The microaggressions I mentioned are an actual thing in psychology, but I know you're a fan of your own theory only. How about you in return broaden your mind, too, since you're so bluntly encouraging me to do the same?
This very easy-to-grasp article was written by a psychologist, Derald Wing Sue PhD:
"Microaggressions: More than Just Race - Can microaggressions be directed at women or gay people?"
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...
I tend to think there's more substance in this text than in your "everything can be described with words" cavalier way of dismissing something that doesn't fit your world view.
One example of microaggression is to tell others that they should be something they're not, "because you said so". But you know what? Being insecure is perfectly okay. Nobody has to become not-insecure, unless they want to become stronger.
There's nothing inherently flawed in having insecurities, and it's okay to go to the grave without having worked on them at all. Because that's one type of lifestyle and feminism is about embracing them all.
What's not okay is to harass others, and use the insecurities of others against them.
What's also not okay is to display microaggression by repeatedly invalidating others' experiences.
Finally, what's not okay at all is to move emphasis of the problem from harasser to harassment victim. I don't think I have more to say on this topic now.
I was talking to one of my feminist friends yesterday about cat calling. He offered me a very interesting view about it. He said that to some guys it's as a form of a compliment. Since a lot of women and girls care a lot about their looks and those are the girls that "rule" or dominate, to some men it's all that women are interested in. I think one of the only solutions to end or at least reduce cat calling is to also get girls and women interested in other things such as STEM or art and such. Obviously, they can still enjoy fashion and makeup, I do even though I'm a feminist, but maybe as forms of art or self expression other than a daily lifestyle.
Medha wrote: "I was talking to one of my feminist friends yesterday about cat calling. He offered me a very interesting view about it. He said that to some guys it's as a form of a compliment. Since a lot of wom..."Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but I don't understand what you mean by 'maybe as forms of art or self-expression other than a daily lifestyle'.
Like, men care almost as much about their looks as woman do. Yes, women wear makeup and dress cute, a stereotype that men and women make fun of. But have you really thought of the 'men' stereotype? The overusing of deo, the sunglasses and the obsession with shoes. Nobody tells them anything or even make fun of them. What will end cat calling is for men to understand that women don't like cat calling and it seems more like a threat than a compliment. Liking makeup and fashion shouldn't matter if you're a feminist. You shouldn't chastise a woman for things like this or tell them they should gain other interests. How are you any different from the men in their lives who say the same thing.
Trixie wrote: "Medha wrote: "I was talking to one of my feminist friends yesterday about cat calling. He offered me a very interesting view about it. He said that to some guys it's as a form of a compliment. Sinc..." You misunderstood what I was trying to say. Like i said before, it is perfectly okay to like makeup and fashion as a feminist or anyone for that matter. I agree with when you say that men have a stereotype too and don't get made fun of or talked too and it is terrible that they can continue this and make fun of women stereotype too. But honestly, we are here to stand up for women. If men want to change, they have to chnage, we can't help them too much. Also, what I meant to say earlier (but terribly misworded) is that women need to somehow let men know that they do not like catcalling peacefully. One way is to let go of the only caring about makeup/fashion stereotype. And I suggested doing that by spending a bit more time on other hobbies that they are interested in. I'm sorry for the confusion.
Okay, I get that. But then again, unless you know a person, you won't know what they are like and dislike. I don't think there is even one woman on this planet that likes only make up and fashion. Maybe it's also the media that enforces stereotypes like this. Sometimes, I might decide to wear makeup when I go out, and if I am catcalled that day, who gives those men the right to assume that my looks are all that I care about. I love Marvel and horror movies, I despise romance movies. My youtube subscription box is filled will videos from beauty gurus to gamers to creepy pastas to entertainment theories. And above all, I am a reader and a writer. The person who looks at me in public doesn't know that. What gives them the right to assume that in my free time I don't work on the hobbies that I love.I spent most of my life running away from what I love now. I was a tomboy, not by choice, but because I thought that people would take me more seriously if I run away from my femininity. It's only now that I wear dresses, shorts and makeup. I love makeup, it has helped me with my self-confidence to such an extent that now I am confident walking out the door without any makeup on.
I'm sorry if I come off as rude, but I am tired of people placing the blame of cat calling (or even something serious like assault) on anyone other that the assailant. It is the people who cat call should be held responsible. Men HAVE been told again and again that women don't like cat-calling. And they still continue to do so. And that is their problem, not mine. (And before someone jumps my throat, I myself will mention, Not all men. Yes, I know not all men cat-call, but the ones that do don't understand so).
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was trying to put the blame on the women or the person who gets cat called. I was purely pointing out a way I thought would help at least a little bit. I disagree with you when you say it's all the cat caller's fault because I feel as if the media makes it seem as a compliment. They don't have the right to assume that all you care about is Fashion and makeup but we live in a world where people judge people at first glance. The media makes it seem as if all girls care about is fashion so I merely pointed out a way that I thought would help. I voiced an opinion that I thought of at that moment. I'm a feminine person myself and enjoy skits and makeup and fashion, but I also have other interests such as art. The media should focus on these other interests. That's what I was trying to say and miserably failed at.
There's no peacefully about it. They already know, by the way.
Okay yes, I mostly agree with you about it being the media's fault. But that's the thing though, there are many movies and stuff nowadays that show how difficult it is for women out there. But the misogynists who cat-call don't watch those movies because it doesn't appeal to them. I don't believe in banning movies and such, but I do believe that people should call out the makers of movies/series/advertisements that glorify assault, stalking, and cat-calling. I was watching an old Bollywood movie the other day. It was not that old, it came out in the early 2000's, I believe. And the 'love story' in the movie was 'stalking'. That's it. The guy stalks the girl all the time and follows her, till he confronts her and demands her to admit that she loves him. I was so scandalized by this.
I feel that it needs to be taught from a young age that women are not sex objects. So many things targeted towards men sexualise women's bodies, including album covers, film poster and even t-shirts. I can't help but feel that this normalises sexualisation of women, thus making cat-calling seem more normal to men, even though it can greatly affect women.The other day I was at a bus stop. I'm 17 and there was also another girl there in her school uniform. She looked about 13. Two men drove past and jeered at us. Neither of us were wearing anything provocative (I was in jeans and a jumper) yet I was still made to feel dirty because of it.
Well first I would like to say that it sounds sexist to me that it's a women's character to feel scared.
In a way this cat calling did not change me, but I wouldn't say it didn't bother me either. I mean, it was the first time it actually happened to me in this way. I wasn't scared, just slightly annoyed because it did disturb me and my friend while we were talking. We weren't expecting this. Even though my friend was wearing a pretty short black dress, in which she did feel uncomfortable. And the guy had sun glasses, which he took off to have "a clearer/better look"... I think it's normal to feel uncomfortable for the first time. And even I don't think I shouldn't feel uncomfortable, I don't want to get used to men sexually harassing women.
Also sometimes I'm self-conscious because I'm different than other teenagers in my age, as I wear different clothes or act differently, don't go to places such as McDonalds or don't like going to the cinema as much as others do. So I'm used to people looking at me from the way I dress myself, and I don't mind that, or being a sort of "outsider". It just gets totally different when someone makes me uncomfortable this way.