Support for Indie Authors discussion

I always assumed that I would use createspace exclusively for POD, but Ingram Spark is looking more and more like a good option, especially for escaping the anti-Amazon sentiment in the big reviewers and brick and mortar store. Does anyone have experience with it?

I use both Createspace and Ingram.

What makes Ingram a better option than CreateSpace?

I used Ingram for another print platform for my Harry Russo Diaries series. The reason I did so was because I wanted to be able to get my books into more of the Canadian market (Chapters/Indigo is the big bookstore here). As far as my experience goes, I have to say Ingram does not make it particularly user friendly. Createspace is much easier. Plus Ingram charges a set up fee which Createspace does not (although they had waived the set up fee for a while there so I was able to get my third book up for free). They also make editing your files (cover and interior) a pain plus will charge you again for modifications. Having said all that, for me it is still worthwhile to be able to get my printed books out to more than just Amazon. Because they are in the Ingram catalogue my books are available in a couple of the bookstore chains here in Canada as well as some stores in Australia, the UK and Europe. My advice when using Ingram is to set up Createspace first. This will help you ensure that you don't have to make any changes to your interior file because you only want to upload once to Ingram to avoid extra charges.

I am in the process of putting mine on ingram. some libraries and bookstores cannot order through Createspace distributors, and some cannot order through Ingram distributors. If you have both, then you are covered; )

I use Ingram Spark because I was unhappy with CreateSpace. Though there are some downsides (a little more setup work, the setup fee, the slightly higher cost per book, and fees for modifying files), I'm completely satisfied with Ingram Spark and will be publishing through them for all of my future self published works.

As for the setup fee, there are times where they run a promotion to waive the setup fee, so keep an eye out for that promotion.

I like Lisa's idea of setting up with CreateSpace first, just to make sure formatting is solid though. I'm totally using that next time.

If you do go Ingram, make sure you read and understand their "Returnable" or "Non Returnable" policies for what you want your book to be.

I went with both CreateSpace and Ingram. I found both to be easy, and as for set-up fees, I snagged one of Ingram's promotions so it was free. Like Thomas said, there is a higher cost per book, so I order my books through CreateSpace.

If you go the "both" route, DO NOT choose expanded distribution with Amazon. It will cancel out Ingram, and you will not be able to upload your book. I had to go through all kinds of hoops to get that straightened out.

Hmm, I will keep a lookout for promotions! I'm leery of the fee, but it would be worthwhile if even a couple of libraries or bookstores actually stocked my book. Did anyone get into brick-and-mortar thanks to Ingram?

The promotion appears to be every April/May and you can use the coupon to set up multiple titles for free.

C. - I plan to publish with Amazon first and publish with Ingram if my book has any sales.

Thomas, Roxanne, and P.D. - Thank you for this helpful information. I'm always making notes.

I tried to put my books at Ingram Spark, but got to know that I need to purchase a new ISBN code to publish, and I can't afford that right now, so I'm keeping to Create Space for the moment.

Yes; I'm lucky that ISBNs are free in Canada. I'm not planning to use a CS isbn regardless.

Thanks for all this info. I was planning on using only Ingram and have purchased the ISBNs. If you upload on CreateSpace, doesn't the ISBN belong to them and therefore registered as published by them?

Only Createspace ISBNs belong to Createspace. If you use your own, then that's your biz. Technically, Createspace and Ingram Spark are not publishers, they are printers. YOU are the publisher. They print and distribute. I named my publishing company One Tall Tree Press.

Most professional self-publishers use both CreateSpace and LSI/Ingram Spark. (Lightning Source International is the professional option; Ingram Spark is the indie option; both are owned by the distributor Ingram. Many self-publishers like myself moved from LSI to Ingram Spark because its fees are lower.) This is because Amazon play dirty with LSI/Ingram Spark titles: Amazon artificially extend the estimated delivery times in order to force publishers to use CreateSpace for titles sold on Amazon (see http://mademers.com/is-canada-the-nex... for the history of the mess).

CreateSpace titles now make it onto Amazon Canada but only at converted U.S. prices (http://mademers.com/createspace-expan...). Ingram Spark allow publishers to set a Canadian price, but I noticed that, when our dollar fell, Canadian retailers were only offered the USD price on my LSI/Ingram Spark books.

CreateSpace is both a POD manufacturer AND a vanity publisher. The difference is whether or not you supply your own ISBN. If you do, CS is your manufacturer only; if you use CS's ISBN, they are your publisher and POD manufacturer. This has practical as well as legal ramifications.

If you use both companies, it is practical to first upload to CS and get your proof from them. This is because they do not charge an upload fee nor revision fees; Spark charge for both. So you can perfect your book for free before it goes live. Then, and only then, do you upload to Spark.

Note that CS and Spark use slightly different paper, and this affects the spine width (CS books tend to have a wider spine than Ingram books; the more pages in your book, the more pronounced the difference). Consequently, you MUST download both CS and Spark's cover templates for the number of pages in your book. I simply copy and paste my cover elements from one template to the other, then adjust for the different spine width.

C. wrote: "Only Createspace ISBNs belong to Createspace. If you use your own, then that's your biz. Technically, Createspace and Ingram Spark are not publishers, they are printers. YOU are the publisher. They..."

M.A., thank you for the clarification. That was very helpful. I have to admit that I've been quite confused by the difference between CS and IS.

A.E. wrote: "M.A., thank you for the clarification. That was very helpful. I have to admit that I've been quite confused by the difference between CS and IS."

You're welcome. There is also a difference in the way the two companies are registered with the IRS: because CreateSpace is also a vanity publisher, they have to be registered as such. This means they pay royalties as opposed to publisher compensation, and must collect withholding tax on those royalties. That a publisher might supply their own ISBN makes no difference to the IRS; a company can only be registered one way.

Ingram Spark do not supply ISBNs to anyone; they are registered with the IRS solely as a manufacturer, not a publisher. Consequently, Ingram Spark do not pay royalties; they pay publisher compensation. This is not subject to withholding tax.

Roxanne wrote: "I went with both CreateSpace and Ingram. I found both to be easy, and as for set-up fees, I snagged one of Ingram's promotions so it was free. Like Thomas said, there is a higher cost per book, so ..."

Hi Roxanne, I went with Createspace and Amazon and my book is listed in Ingram. I looked it up recently because I might want to have them re-do my cover. I just want it lighter like I thought it would be originally. Now Createspace gave me a list of what I can do, but it's like getting it published all over again. I don't understand it they are printing my book on demand, why can't they just 'lighten' the cover without totally re-doing it? Any ideas?

Roxanne wrote: "I went with both CreateSpace and Ingram. I found both to be easy, and as for set-up fees, I snagged one of Ingram's promotions so it was free. Like Thomas said, there is a higher cost per book, so ..."

Roxanne, I went with expanded distribution with Createspace when my book came out. If I want to go with Ingram, can I first have the expanded distribution removed? Thanks so much!

Thanks, MA for the info. Very interesting about the IRS. I'll have to look at the publisher compensation versus royalties and see which one is better. It's all so confusing for my first book!

I'm thinking of doing both but I am a little confused on how you can do both. Those of you who are using both Create Space and Amazon can you explain?

Are you using Create Space for both e-books and print books? What about Ingram? Are you using it for only print books or also for e-books as well?

Are your covers the same for both listings? Are there any differences or nuances you can point out?

Thank you in advance.

Createspace is only for paperback books, and they aren't exclusive; I use Createspace and Lulu both for paperbacks. I could also use Ingram, but I didn't like their up-front charge. If you sell ebooks on Amazon, you can also sell those elsewhere, but if you join Amazon's KDP Select, your ebooks must be exclusive to Amazon.

Gippy wrote: "Roxanne, I went with expanded distribution with Createspace when my book came out. If I want to go with Ingram, can I first have the expanded distribution removed? Thanks so much! "

Not only can you, but you must: a single ISBN can only have one fulfillment option. That is, there can only be one place the retailer has to look to fulfill their order.

Sine you have gone with Expanded Distribution, you cannot assign your book to Ingram Spark without first cancelling Expanded Distribution. It will then take about 6 weeks for the ISBN to be removed from retailers' catalogues (except Amazon U.S., Canada, and Europe).

Even after you do that, you may still have to contact CreateSpace to have them transfer the ISBN over to Ingram Spark.

There is one caveat to my first statement: you can have both CreateSpace fulfill orders for Amazon, and Ingram Spark fulfill orders for everyone else, because Amazon do not look beyond their subsidiary CreateSpace if they print the title. It's a market anomaly created by Amazon to their advantage. But to make it work you have to first assign your book to CreateSpace and then to Ingram so that the title feed from CreateSpace reaches the Amazon catalogue first. Otherwise there will be a delay.

This is interesting M.A and seems to contradict what I read elsewhere e.g. the Nielsen's site (Nielsen assign ISBNs in the UK) namely that it is the format that is associated with the ISBN, e.g. paperback, hardback, audio etc.

So I was led to believe that if you had two printers do your book, e.g. CreateSpace and Ingram Spark, it didn't need a separate ISBN for both if they were materially the same. Also small typo corrections did not warrant a new ISBN. Only if there were substantial content changes did that count as a new edition needing a new ISBN. Even a different cover did not constitue a new edition. So am interested if you've been told differently.

Gippy wrote: "I don't understand it they are printing my book on demand, why can't they just 'lighten' the cover without totally re-doing it?..."

It is because they are POD that they cannot simply lighten the cover for you. POD manufacturers print 10,000 pages per hour, and their machines are not calibrated individually for each book, as they are with your local printer. If you need your cover lightened, you will have to do it yourself in the appropriate software (such as Photoshop) then upload the new cover.

The other thing to remember about POD is that print consistency is almost impossible. As I said, 10,000 pages are printed each hour but the machines are calibrated only once per hour. Anything printed toward the end of the hour will be off. This is why you can have 20 copies printed and 10 might be slightly darker, lighter, greener, whatever, from the other 10. That's the nature of the POD beast. (Read http://mademers.com/print-on-demands-... for more details.)

I use my own ISBN numbers on Createspace, KDP, and Ingram (and, of course Smashwords, etc.)

I publish paperback on Createspace, and a second paperback (separate ISBN) and a hardcover on Ingram. I understand that some people use the same ISBN number at both Createspace and Ingram, but ISBN numbers are free for me, so I am not worried about the extra expense of a second ISBN number.

If I find a typo in one of my books, I will correct it pretty quickly on Createspace. But there is a charge to correct it on Ingram, so I won't change them as often there. If someone tells me there is a typo in my paperback, or they ended up with a cover misprint or some other problem, I can find out which printer it was from immediately by the ISBN number.

Nascha wrote: "I'm thinking of doing both but I am a little confused on how you can do both. Those of you who are using both Create Space and Amazon can you explain?

Are you using Create Space for both e-books a..."

CreateSpace do not distribute ebooks. They simply offer a service to convert your print book to ebook so you can upload it to Kindle Direct Publishing.

Ingram offer ebook distribution but it's not very good. There are better options.

Please read message 15 of this thread for information on the difference in covers between the two companies.

At the risk of being accused of spamming, my book The Global Indie Author has everything you need to know about print and ebook manufacturing and distribution. There have been some industry changes since I published the 3rd edition; updates are provided on my blog.

P.D. wrote: "I use my own ISBN numbers on Createspace, KDP, and Ingram (and, of course Smashwords, etc.)

I publish paperback on Createspace, and a second paperback (separate ISBN) and a hardcover on Ingram. I ..."

OK thanks PD. ISBNs are not free in the UK sadly. I'll bear in mind all the 'fee' stuff around Ingrams. That is useful as you say, to know where the misprinted book originated.

Pam wrote: "This is interesting M.A and seems to contradict what I read elsewhere e.g. the Nielsen's site (Nielsen assign ISBNs in the UK) namely that it is the format that is associated with the ISBN, e.g. pa..."

There is a difference between a printer (manufacturer) and a distributor. The ISBN is associated with the format of the book. A single ISBN can have as many printers/manufacturers as you wish, but the industry "rule" is that there can only be one fulfillment option (i.e., one distributor) per ISBN; this is to ensure there is no confusion in the marketplace. If there were multiple distributors for a title, then the retailer would have to decide each time whom to order from instead of going to only one source.

The anomaly is CreateSpace, because after you also sign onto Ingram Spark and Amazon get the feed from Ingram listing your book, Amazon ignore this Ingram feed if CreateSpace already supply your book. But other retailers do not operate this way. And because CreateSpace is not a true distributor, CreateSpace titles are restricted to Amazon sites, acting as your distributor only within the Amazon family.

If you choose Expanded Distribution, CreateSpace subcontract the distribution to Ingram. CreateSpace also used to subcontract the printing to LSI (Ingram Spark), who would then ship the books out using Amazon labels, but that relationship ended a while ago due to souring relations between the two rivals.

In Europe, Amazon directly print CreateSpace titles. That is, CreateSpace don't actually have any printing facilities outside of the U.S.; instead, your file is sent directly to Amazon's printing facilities, which share space with their warehouses. This is how Amazon are able to print and ship your books so quickly (usually within 24 hours). In this case Amazon are acting as your printer, your distributor, and your retailer all at the same time.

Ingram Spark will vehemently deny they are a distributor because, technically speaking, Ingram Spark sell to their parent company, Ingram, who is the actual distributor to the retailers.

But it's all semantics, really, since with POD one's books are only printed after they are ordered by the retailer. This is why your printer and distributor are essentially one and the same, even if technically speaking they divide these roles among sister companies.

Pam wrote: "Even a different cover did not constitue a new edition."

Actually, a new cover is considered a material change and would require a new ISBN. Changes to the cover such as adding reviewer quotes or "Winner of" banner are not considered material changes if the cover image otherwise remains unchanged.

With Createspace and Lulu both, you keep the same ISBN with a cover change. I've done cover changes with them, and always used the same ISBN. Not sure about Ingram Spark.

Ken wrote: "With Createspace and Lulu both, you keep the same ISBN with a cover change. I've done cover changes with them, and always used the same ISBN. Not sure about Ingram Spark."

None of these companies would be expected to police this; it is up to the publisher to know the rules.

That said, I just read the latest Agency rules and they say that a "change to the cover design" does not require a new ISBN (it did in the past) but "change" is not defined. It says that "significant" changes to any part of a publication requires a new ISBN, but "significant" is also not defined. Not particularly helpful.

Here in Canada, the issuing ISBN agency, Library and Archives Canada, defines a significant change as any addition to the body text (such as a preface, forward, introduction, appendix, new or additional illustrations, etc, or, conversely, their removal), if the original cover image is changed, if the book's dimensions change, or if there is a change to the title or subtitle. One can fix typos or formatting, add additional text to the cover (such as reviews or prizes), or add/remove/change front or back matter, without assigning a new ISBN.

So it may be that each issuing agency is allowed to define "significant" and "change". If so, I stand corrected.

I use Ingram Spark. When I changed my cover design I called their support line to see if I needed a new ISBN. They said no, so I didn't bother. The only difficulty I had with that was here on Goodreads, where you have to create an alternate cover edition and make that the default edition. I still see the old cover pop up in a few places here, but not on any of the retailer sites.

This is a great thread!

I'm just about to finally get my books printed.
It's a minefield!

I think I'm going with Createspace, and buying my own ISBN (so it will get used on my book wherever it's sold).

But the whole trim width/font size/ISBN/expanded distribution/pricing etc. is all a bit scary/overwhelming!?

Do I try one of my books out first, or take the plunge with all 5??

I'm UK based, so I'll get tax withheld (as my x4 tries at obtaining the magical ITIN failed).

:-/

Have you looked at TJInk...a Padstow based print company who really support indie publishing with short run digital printing etc. Check them out. I have used them twice now and the service is ace.

Thanks, S.J. but I really want POD and Amazon/Ingram distribution and I don't think TJ Ink can do that for me.

I chose IngramSpark over CreateSpace for my print editions, as the cost per book is far lower for markets other than the US; and this is simply because Amazon only print in the US and ship from there. (For the US, I believe CreateSpace works out to be a little cheaper.) That means there's a much higher delivery cost to overseas destinations, because IngramSpark have printers all over the world and can usually ship locally. At the time, too, IngramSpark had more flexible systems - you could if you want have material printed on the inside of the covers, and they have a huge range of print formats supported.
Providing the tax information to avoid the withholding tax for IngramSpark required filling out about ten forms; in contrast, for Amazon's Kindle edition a single online form sufficed.
I'm happy with IngramSpark, but my impression is that CreateSpace holds your hand more: I think they can provide services to help you produce the book if you don't know how to do it all yourself.

With Ingram, subsequent corrections attract a surcharge whereas CS does not charge you for subsequent corrections. On the long run, Ingram becomes more expensive and this erodes your little royalty on print books. If you jack up the price to compensate for this, you price yourself out of the market. Knowing that you have more flexibility with CS, I would recommend CS.

It only becomes expensive if you make many small corrections. Because of non-US delivery costs, with CS you price yourself out of the non-US market from your very first edition.
With IngramSpark you don't need to price yourself out of the market if you don't want to: it's under your control. E.g. I'm happy to bear the costs (~$50) for a corrected edition, and not pass it on to readers, since as far as I'm concerned, if I make mistakes, I feel I should pay for them, not the readers. The only reason my 1st book went through 7 revisions was because I rushed to get it into print; and the 2nd took 4 revisions, again because I rushed. For book 3, I've set myself a less difficult deadline, so fully expect to need fewer revisions.

This discussion is really helpful. It confirms my plan to use Create Space first, correct any errors and then use Ingram Spark. Thank you for all your comments.

I have changed from Createspace to Ingram Spark. for an Australian author I find it is the better option.

Heidi wrote: "I am in the process of putting mine on ingram. some libraries and bookstores cannot order through Createspace distributors, and some cannot order through Ingram distributors. If you have both, then..."

Heidi, since you brought this up, I'm wondering if, when you went through CreateSpace for publishing, did you get into the Library of Congress? I just discovered that they didn't do that in my book and when I questioned it, they said it was because I signed up for extended distribution I think they call it? Now I can't get my book into libraries, which is a great way to make sales. The Library of Congress will not offer an LCCN # 'after' the book is already published I understand.

Ken wrote: "With Createspace and Lulu both, you keep the same ISBN with a cover change. I've done cover changes with them, and always used the same ISBN. Not sure about Ingram Spark."

Hi Ken. In reference to your cover changes with CreateSpace, your ISBN is with them or did you purchase your own? Thanks.

Here are some notes I made for my blog, last year. In summary, you can do that yourself, and it's only a matter of filling out some online forms:

If you're in the US, you're advised to get a Library of Congress Catalog Number (here is one site that explains the hows and whys of How to Get Your LCCN). Though you might consider doing what is recommended for people outside the US, since I gather that provides a superset of what's needed for the LCCN. I'm speaking of obtaining a Cataloguing-in-Print number from your national body. This number is used for libraries all around the world, and I gather is somehow mapped to a LCCN in the US. In Australia, you use this link for Applying for a CIP: note that this step can take a couple of weeks, so don't leave it until the last minute. And keep in mind that there are steps you need to follow-through with afterwards, to finalise the details (like: sending them a copy of your book). You will need to have an ISBN before you apply for the CIP/LCCN, so that's another good reason for buying a few ISBNs for yourself. There's good information about the CIP on the Australian FAQ or on their search page, and also here: http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/services...

Gippy wrote: "In reference to your cover changes with CreateSpace, your ISBN is with them or did you purchase your own?..."

I have an ISBN with Createspace and another ISBN with Lulu, both supplied by them. With Createspace I've changed the cover twice on my first novel, and the page count twice--the second time was when I created a 2nd edition, with added chapters--but still have the original ISBN. I was under the impression that you couldn't change page count with the same ISBN, but apparently you can with Createspace.

Gippy wrote: "Heidi, since you brought this up, I'm wondering if, when you went through CreateSpace for publishing, did you get into the Library of Congress? I just discovered that they didn't do that in my book and when I questioned it, they said it was because I signed up for extended distribution I think they call it? Now I can't get my book into libraries, which is a great way to make sales. The Library of Congress will not offer an LCCN # 'after' the book is already published I understand."

CreateSpace only sell to libraries if you sign up for Expanded Distribution AND use a CreateSpace ISBN. This makes CS your publisher, and they have accounts set up with libraries through various distributors.

If you use your own ISBN and sign up for Expanded Distribution, libraries can still buy your book through Ingram. It is the same if you use Ingram Spark.

Whether you have an LCCN or not is irrelevant to whether or not a library can or will purchase your book. All libraries have cataloguing librarians, so if they want your book and there is no Library of Congress data, the librarians will create it themselves.

It is a myth that a book must have either CIP data and/or an LCCN before a library can buy your book -- a myth perpetuated by for-profit "cataloguing librarians" who offer a fee-based Publisher's Cataloging in Publication (a total waste of money).

In response to the query about LCCNs, I adapted a section of my book to create a 4-part blog series on Cataloguing in Publication, LCCNs, the Preassigned Control Number Program, and Publisher Cataloguing in Publication. http://mademers.com/cip-lccn-pcn-pcip...

Ken wrote: "the second time was when I created a 2nd edition, with added chapters--but still have the original ISBN..."

Ken, you MUST change the ISBN when you publish a second edition with added chapters. I highly recommend you fix that, especially since the first edition is still likely in the Amazon catalogue (Amazon keeps all previously published print books in its catalogue to accommodate third-party sellers of used copies).

It's not that CreateSpace allow you to keep the same ISBN for a second edition, it is that it is up to the publisher to publish correctly. When you upload a new file, CS don't measure it against the previous one and ask questions if there are differences.

Luke wrote: "If you're in the US, you're advised to get a Library of Congress Catalog Number... I'm speaking of obtaining a Cataloguing-in-Print number from your national body. This number is used for libraries all around the world, and I gather is somehow mapped to a LCCN in the US..."

Luke, a few corrections, if I may:

Self-publishers in the U.S. cannot apply for CIP data, and an LCCN that does not have a corresponding CIP data block is useless. Consequently, those who recommend that indie authors apply for an LCCN either do not understand what it is, or charge money to apply on behalf of the author-publisher and are keen to keep indie authors ignorant of the truth.

CIP is not a number, it is a data block with information about a book's publication. In the CIP is a national control number; in the U.S. it is called an LCCN; in Canada the control number is called a Canadiana Number; and in Australia it is called something else. The control number is what the librarian inputs into the registry to find the CIP data.

A national control number from one country is not mapped in any way to the LCCN. However, included in the CIP is the Library of Congress Classification Number, which is simply a variation of the Dewey Decimal System, and is used mostly by academic libraries.

Neither CIP nor an LCCN is required in order for a library to buy your book or to put it into circulation. The CIP just decreases the cataloguing librarian's workload.

In message #48 I provide a link to a 4-part series I just posted on my blog that explains CIP, LCCN, PCN, and PCIP. Here it is again: http://mademers.com/cip-lccn-pcn-pcip...

Hope that clears things up some.