Dangerous Hero Addict Support Group discussion

When is a rapist just a rapist and not a romantic hero? When is a dangerous hero too psycho to be considered a hero?

For me, these days, rape no longer holds the fantasy appeal it did when I was young and newly addicted to bodice-ripper romance novels.

I like a good kidnapper as much as the next person (Coburn in Lethal, anyone?) and I have been known to overlook an attempted assassination of the heroine, provided the hero (a) thought he had a good reason to kill her, and changed his mind in the nick of time and (b) was seriously hot. (Yes, I'm talking about you, (view spoiler)[Takashi O'Brian (hide spoiler)], and don't think I'm not watching you to make sure you make it up to her for the rest of your life.) But rape and abuse just to make him seem like he has more testosterone, or is more passionate or whatever? Deal-breakers.

Also, spineless heroines. Life's too short to read about the romantic life of a doormat.

What about you? What are your deal-breakers?

Old bodice rippers are so odd. Because of the way those stories were set up, the hero and the villain were the same person. This is what gave them their excitement and suspense. It's also what makes them so ridiculous today. How could you ever forgive somebody who rapes you, has you branded with a hot iron, and calls you a whore every chance he gets? Yet it happens all the time in BR land.

The problem I think with today's romances though is that now that the hero is a decent chap, there is no villain, which means zzzzzzzz.

On to your question though, I don't know if there are deal-breakers for me. If the book is entertaining, I'll go with it. But only if it's historical, fantasy or Scifi. If it's contemporary like Captive in the Dark it doesn't interest me. I guess the story of how Colleen Stan was kept in a box underneath a sadist's bed for seven years just makes it all too horribly real.

well dnt read consequences...it was very dark with rape..abuse..then twisted love in thw end..tony was sick

True, an awareness of real- life rape and abuse makes the fantasy harder to maintain, especially in a contemporary setting... As for needing a villain, I guess that's why I look for stories that are built on a suspense premise, like Lethal and the Ice series. Those heroes get a pass from me on a lot of ugly behavior because the plot puts them in a position where they have to be a bad guy to catch a bad guy.

Susan wrote: "True, an awareness of real- life rape and abuse makes the fantasy harder to maintain, especially in a contemporary setting... As for needing a villain, I guess that's why I look for stories that ar..."

I agree. I'll even take the bad guy who reforms.
I don't like to read flat out abuse either. It's just depressing.

I must ask, what is the Ice series? :D

Heavens, I'm glad you asked, Willow. :-D
Anne Stuart's Ice men are part of a covert operations outfit called "The Committee." They're my favorite assassin-lovers of all time, baddest of the bad, but always with a good reason.













If you like audiobooks, AVOID the first one in the series on audio, it's narrated by a woman who makes all her female characters sound like twits. Some of the others are pretty good on audio.

Thank you bunches!

Oh, my pleasure. It's an excuse to consider a re-listen of all except the first, which I'll have to get on Kindle to avoid that awful narrator.

FYI, this is the series of which Anne Stuart famously wrote that her heroes start out "with no redeeming qualities." :-D They're that bad, mercenaries to the core. But when they fall in love, they fall harder than anybody.

Barbara, in the 70s and 80s, romance novels were full of rapist pirates, rapist Vikings, rapist knights and the women who cringed at their feet before falling madly in love with them. More than a few mainstream romance writers who are still publishing got their start writing those old- school bodice rippers. I read them, and except for the most violent ones, I liked the fantasy of having no control. Rape fantasies were (are?) not unusual among women who feel a lot of guilt associated with sex; having a pirate make you do it means you can have sex without feeling dirty. Reading those books didn't mean we weren't capable of making a distinction between bodice- ripper fantasy rape, which invariably ended up with the heroine having a grand old time and the "hero" falling in love with her, and the horror of actual rape... I outgrew the need to hide behind those fantasies , I guess.

Susan wrote: "Heavens, I'm glad you asked, Willow. :-D
Anne Stuart's Ice men are part of a covert operations outfit called "The Committee." They're my favorite assassin-lovers of all time, baddest of the bad, ..."

I second the Ice series as well. I love all the heroes, and the women are not bad too. Anne Stuart has a way of writing about dark and dangerous heroes that are so irresistible.

Susan wrote: "Heavens, I'm glad you asked, Willow. :-D
Anne Stuart's Ice men are part of a covert operations outfit called "The Committee." They're my favorite assassin-lovers of all time, baddest of the bad, ..."
This is why I love Goodreads; I didn't know about the"Ice men." I'm going to add them to my list and I love that they are on audio. (I'm in my car a lot.)

Barbara wrote: "Susan wrote: "Barbara, in the 70s and 80s, romance novels were full of rapist pirates, rapist Vikings, rapist knights and the women who cringed at their feet before falling madly in love with them..."

I love the whole premise of the "Carpathians." I think you'll enjoy her stories. Great dark, tortured heroes.

Susan wrote: "FYI, this is the series of which Anne Stuart famously wrote that her heroes start out "with no redeeming qualities." :-D They're that bad, mercenaries to the core. But when they fall in love, they..."

What I love about her heroes!

Susan wrote: "True, an awareness of real- life rape and abuse makes the fantasy harder to maintain, especially in a contemporary setting... As for needing a villain, I guess that's why I look for stories that ar..."

I think that's why Iam okay with the ice style heroes. They live in a dark world, and they have to be a bit dark to do what they do.

Dawn, I'm delighted when anybody discovers the Ice men (and one woman, their boss Isobel). Beware of the dreadful narration of Book One (Black Ice). I forget the actress' name, but she's become an automatic No Buy for me on Audible. I'd hate to see anyone turned off of the series because of her.

There's a female narrator who ruined Iris Johansen for me; all of her heroines sound whiny and petulant, same problem I had with her on Black Ice. The wrong narrator can destroy a good story.

Susan wrote: "There's a female narrator who ruined Iris Johansen for me; all of her heroines sound whiny and petulant, same problem I had with her on Black Ice. The wrong narrator can destroy a good story."

I totally agree. I was listening to Lauren Willig's Pink Carnation series and about half-way through she changed to a different narrator. I almost stopped reading the books, especially as there is a modern love story that runs through the whole series. Thank heavens she went back to the original narrator after that one book.

I wonder how often the author has a say in choosing a narrator. Gillian Flynn says she likes the actors who narrate Gone Girl (so do I) but she wasn't asked to choose.

I feel that way about the GhostWalkers by Feehan audiobook narrator. He's terrible.

Annabelle wrote: "We need a discussion board for Audible narrators so that we don't waste our money!!!"

That's a good idea!

Annabelle wrote: "We need a discussion board for Audible narrators so that we don't waste our money!!!"

I agree Annabelle. Audiobooks can be so expensive and it sucks when the narrator is terrible and it feels like you wasted your money.

As far as the question goes I have very few deal breakers. THe only book that I can think of that really bothered me was . The hero was a HUGE jerk and pushed the heroine around a lot. Especially in the bedroom. Don't get me wrong I love an alpha male but he was pretty much forcing himself upon her all the time.

Annabelle wrote: "We need a discussion board for Audible narrators so that we don't waste our money!!!"


You can contact them and ask for your money/credit back. I have done it before and they are good about it.

Yes, Audible will give a refund if you really hate a book.

Susan wrote: "Barbara, in the 70s and 80s, romance novels were full of rapist pirates, rapist Vikings, rapist knights and the women who cringed at their feet before falling madly in love with them. More than a ..."

Excellent Point Susan!

It was a different world back then. Women did not have the sexual freedom they have today and being "taken" by Bodice Ripper was one way to fantasize without being guilty of giving in. It doesn't work today and with the sexual freedom we have today quasi & real rape story lines are just distasteful and hard to read.

I wonder if alot of the enthusiasm around BDSM story lines in which the woman signs a contract to give up her control....to submit....might not be some of the same reason Bodice Rippers were so popular in the 70's and 80's????? How different is it from the young miss who climbs into the rakes window at night to strike a bargain with him to save her brother? I like the ones where both adults are coming together to participate but so many books now have a reluctant woman who signs a contract or submits because of a bargain. There is something this woman needs or she would not be there kinda thing.....

Not sure I believe my own words....just raising the question?

I think you make an excellent point, not just about reading BDSM themes but about the practice itself. Erotic power exchange may be a way for women and men to deal with the conflict between traditional gender roles and modern ones... I can't imagine that women living truly subservient, powerless lives would be drawn to novels where giving up power is erotic.

Darcy wrote: "Annabelle wrote: "We need a discussion board for Audible narrators so that we don't waste our money!!!"


You can contact them and ask for your money/credit back. I have done it before and they ar..."

I got a refund for - didn't like the narrator or the story and had to DNF after 2 hours of listening. I was so grateful for their refund policy at that moment because it can be really expensive to DNF an audiobook without a refund.

Susan wrote: "I think you make an excellent point, not just about reading BDSM themes but about the practice itself. Erotic power exchange may be a way for women and men to deal with the conflict between traditi..."

Interesting point but women have been struggling against oppression and fighting for equality for so long that it really bugs me to read a book were a woman willingly becomes subservient. That just isn't my idea of erotic or entertaining.

You can be a feminist and still enjoy sexual games of power exchange/submission. As a full-time lifestyle, that would just be weird.

I have always felt like "whatever floats your boat" is the best policy when it comes sex. Who am I to judge what turns people on or off. As long as the people involved are consenting adults I don't care.

Plus, to me the biggest part of being a feminist is the right to choose. So if someone wants to be submissive whoever they are with that is their choice.
So, that is the view that I take in books as well. It may not be what I would want for myself but as long as I can understand WHY the character wants it that way I am good with it.

Agreed. I was a feminist before I knew there was a word for it and have been battling workplace sexism for thirty years. Playing a submissive role in a sex game can be a tremendous, temporary relief of responsibility.

Willow wrote: "The problem I think with today's romances though is that now that the hero is a decent chap, there is no villain"

Which is probably why I read so much suspense. I don't always need a villain, but I definitely need a decent problem to keep hero and heroine apart. I've noticed in a lot of contemporary romances there aren't any obstacles anymore - just lots of sex. And lots of 'slutty' secondary characters throwing themselves at the hero - which I find incredibly sexist of the authors.

I'll give bodice rippers one thing: at least they usually had a big, historical, adventurous plot!

Books like Stormfire are horrible, but these days historical romance mostly takes place between two anachronistic people speaking modern US English, and they do nothing much other than skip around ballrooms...

I do miss the drama and excitement of the bodice rippers, but not the rapeyness.

Susan wrote: "I think you make an excellent point, not just about reading BDSM themes but about the practice itself. Erotic power exchange may be a way for women and men to deal with the conflict between traditi..."

I appreciate the insight into BDSM. I have wondered about the appeal. I don't find myself drawn into BDSM books in the slightest. I guess I don't really find the sexual power dynamic appealing. I feel that good sexual tension and well-written vanilla sex scenes are all I need to enjoy a good sensual romance. A huge component in a strong, powerful feeling between the H/h and a love bond (or at least a developing one). I don't like the idea of the bedroom being a place of horror/fear/pain/degradation at all. Not saying all BDSM goes there, but some certainly toes the line for me.

While I like edgy heroes, I don't understand the need to dominate or be subservient sexually. I think the bedroom is a place where there should be the ultimate level of trust and sharing where both parties feel equal and don't need to be pressured to do something they don't want to do or the need to 'act out' something that isn't natural to them. I think that BDSM seems to play into pushing boundaries in a way that I don't feel comfortable with and clashes with my personal feelings about sexual intimacy. I like the idea of a hero who is sexually demanding (possessive and obsessive about the heroine is appealing to me) to an extent, but it shouldn't be about power, but about a powerful bond and a mutual need, in my opinion.

I think that woman's sexuality is a huge issue right now in romance, and in some ways, I feel like it sends out some mixed messages that women need to fill some sort of artificial role instead of just being themselves.

Hmm...interesting topic. I have a bunch of bodice rippers on my shelf haven't read them yet. I don't think I have ever read a book where the hero rapes the heroine. I have read books where the super dominant alpha hero persuades & pushes the obstinate heroine into giving in, you know the typical 'no! no no! to...oh, yes yes yes!' situation. It is a very fine line for me. The whole rape thing skeeves me out and I don't think I would ever find it appealing or exciting and is part of why I'm hesitant to try bodice rippers. I love dark angsty aggressive stories but sexually violent? Nope.

I usually really like anti-heroes, the dark, angry brooding guys who are damaged and think they can control everything until the heroine changes their perspective. But rape is rape and I don't get how that was ever romanticized or considered 'okay' in a romance genre. Not criticizing anyone just making an overall observation with what was considered 'in' back then vs. now? What era did bodice rippers start? I always thought romance books to be more 'tame' and conservative in romance books that were written in the 80s no matter the genre so it totally blows my mind how rape was an expected trope that came with reading bodice rippers. Did they start in the 70s? I would think it would be more risque back then no? I'm guessing here.

I've been trying to hunt down Lisa Kleypas's first few books she wrote that are bodice rippers they seem to be out of print, but one of them I heard the hero rapes the heroine in the first chapter? which makes me nervous. I just can't overlook that unless it was something that is open for interpretation? (I doubt it)

Susan, Kilian is my favorite and then Reno.

A hero raping a heroine will never be okay in my eyes. I don't mind if he is a dangerous bad boy and he starts off being mean in a good way to the heroine - he can get all in her face for all I care, but he can't rape or beat her. Manhandle her yes, if he has to.

There has to be a limited to what a dangerous bad boy will do to the heroine.

Definitely avoid bodice rippers in that case, Melody. I think that HR started to change for the better in that sense in the late 80s. Although I do feel like they went the other way towards blandness. However, there are some good authors who are revitalizing the genre, so I'm happy.

A hero lets another man rape the heroine even though the H has feelings for h. One perfect example is Tears of Tess by Pepper Winters.

I think we women Of A Certain Age were reading bodice rippers at a time when there was still a lot of guilt associated with women wanting and enjoying sex. The rape fantasy, like bondage play today, was a way of eliminating female guilt. If he MADE her do it (and of course made her enjoy it) then she was still in some sense innocent. That may be hard for women of a later generation to understand; even I look back and am repulsed by some of the stuff that seemed " romantic" to me thirty years ago.

In the interest of honest queries... I think there are too separate issues: sex fetishes and dark romance

Part of the bdsm fantasy thing for me is immersive masculine energy without apology. I have noticed that a Dom is never written picking his nose which would be more reality... So there's mystery, danger and a level of refinement. I wouldn't necessarily willing exit my comfort zone but there is an illussion of safety. The Dom would never go too far. So I guess there are multiple subconscious appeals.:
-I don't wanna have to instruct my lover it's boring. I like the idea of someone who understands that looking at me is not enough to get me hot and bothered.
-Part of the fantasy of doms is there isn't a fragile ego to worry about.
-Virginal lovers aren't my thing. two people stumbling and fumbling about totally impressed with their new anatomical toys is not appealing. I have no interest in the wishy washy 'where do I put my hands', 'am I doing this right', 'do they all look like that?'

as for how dark is too dark...
I've read pretty dark and honestly at some point it is just scary. I think there is a common thread of redemption at the end but sometimes it isn't enough. For the most part I think love can go along way. Love saves people. Not necessarily lovers, but just simple human compassion. Dark dark romances make me question the boundaries of love and I don't necessarily read them for the romance but more of the existential crisis. It leads me down paths and inevitably I question, how far does my love go? But reading smut for me is a leisure activity: light and meaningless reading. Dark romances for me can be scary, some I wish I never read them, sometimes I'm totally repulsed, ive even left books with what I can only describe as ptsd (not that there is any comparison to real ptsd)...but I feel. As an example Captive in the Dark and Clockwork Orange both affected me. The capabilities of man to be cruel to eachother is indescribable. But what is the price of redemption and forgiveness? Would you pay it?

I am not sure what it says about me to know that 85% of what I read I am desensitized too. I don't often knowingly engage in heavy reading. It leads me conflicted. I hope I have a degree of more self awareness but maybe I am just a sick twisted individual and there is no societal change or worse maybe they really have a more damaging impact. There were a lot of imitators when Clockwork Orange came out...

Good thread!

This is such an interesting thread. I recently read a couple of bodice rippers and while they were rapey, they were tame compared to some of the dark romances. And dark romance is huge right now. Women are devouring books where the heroes sometimes rape and beat the woman. Some are def too far for me. I can't read really dark. But the lighter end of the dark romance spectrum I can read.

I do have a (maybe a bit off the wall) psychological theory about their appeal. Masculine power is still very real. The threat of rape is also still very real for women. I think dark romance novels often start off with an ultra powerful, and often cruel, hero. Maybe the embodiment of all our fears. But in a handsome, attractive package. By the ends of the books, the hero is always tamed by the heroine. In a sense, she wins. So maybe, dark romances are like reading horror - we get to be terrified. But unlike with a lot of horror. In the end good wins. Love wins. And ultimately the woman wins as she 'tames' the scary monster? It's something I've been musing on recently lol.

I agree, Skye. I think the fantasy is being able to have a tiger by the tail.

I can definitely see your point, Skye. I do love when the hero is really dark (although I shy away from sexual violence and BDSM) and his love for the heroine changes his heart.

Rape, Domestic Abuse, and the outright infliction of pain (emotional, mental, physical, sexual, spiritual) are hard limits for me..

I'm ok with light consensual pain...read about it, not having it :)
Skye, I agree with you, the bodice rippers might have one or two rape scenes but they are usually more forced seduction (heroine is reluctant but sexually enjoys it...Linda Howard does this a lot...at the end hero declares his love and is "tamed"). Often the virginal heroine is afraid and hero overcomes this fear with his force....but he makes it good for her physically and she is not really afraid for her life. (But I still hate these men and the frivolous way rape is handled...heroine usually recovers very easily...). But the core of dark romance, other than the consensual slave stuff, is captivity/non-consensual relationships, where heroine is in a state of terror or is brainwashed. at least these guys are honest about being rapists. So many of the forced seduction guys don't think they are rapists!

What a good question.. I guess for me it's torture and/or rape. But, I'm ok with dub consent which now that I think about it is sort of bizarre in a way. What is the line between dubious consent and rape; some books I'm left "up in the air" because I'm really unsure what happened in that type of scene. Was it or wasn't is forced seduction. There's a scene in Tears of Tess that was like that for me. (i really enjoyed that series)

I am currently reading Captive in the Dark and I might not be able to finish it. I have read half of it in a few hours. It seems like the author wants us to like the male character, Caleb, even though he kidnaps, rapes, humiliates, and leaves the main female character, Olivia, locked in darkness. Seriously, reading it is making me nauseous and panicked feeling. If that is the author's intention, then great, mission accomplished. It might just be too much for me but I feel like I have to finish it anyway.

Ashley, I'm the same way. There is a line for me between fantasy-captivity and brutality. I DNF'd Pauline Reage's classic s/m novel "The Story of O" because it made me feel disgusted. To each her own, but life is too short - and the world is too full of fabulous books - to spend time with one that makes me want to wash my eyes. :-)

Susan wrote: "Ashley, I'm the same way. There is a line for me between fantasy-captivity and brutality. I DNF'd Pauline Reage's classic s/m novel "The Story of O" because it made me feel disgusted. To each her o..."

I'll have to keep that n mind before reading that book.

I decided to finish Captive in the Dark and I feel dirty having read it. I really don't know what to make of it.

Ashley wrote: "I am currently reading Captive in the Dark and I might not be able to finish it. I have read half of it in a few hours. It seems like the author wants us to like the male character, Caleb, even t..."

I hope this isn't supposed to be a love story, because I can't see how the heroine would fall in love with a man that rapes her.

I like a good kidnap story. I've written one, but my hero doesn't rape or even hit the heroine. I could not read a story like that.