Support for Indie Authors discussion

How do you start a book? Do you have the whole story mapped out or do you make it up as you go along?

I know the beginning, the middle and the end. But how we are going to get there....

I thought I had my first book planned almost page by page before I started it. BUT. It didn't work out like that. My characters had other ideas.

Like Jane, I have some idea how it's going to start and end. Then I shovel ideas into the middle. As I start developing more ideas and characters I start laying out chapters and what I want to happen in those chapters. Eventually I have a whole story.

I have a plan two or three chapters out and a rough idea of the ending. But don't fall too in love with your plan. If you have strong characters with individual motivations, they might take you in directions you didn't plan. Just be open to new ideas as you go through the journey.

There are as many ways of writing a novel as there are writers but....you have to find what works for you. I tried the sit down and write method (Panster) and ended up with a 500k word novel. It isn't sellable, but I did complete it.
My next novel, I used a real basic outline where I essentially wrote a line to make me think about what was going to happen. I used this on several novels to keep control of them but...there were still a few things missing.
I then took several classes. Even though the second book was better at 50k words, I knew it could use improvement. After taking a class in deep story techniques which gave me what was missing in the other novels I had written I then took the James Patterson master class (which was excellent) on how he writes a novel. My next novel was really well planned and came out the best I've done so far in the sense of organization, ease in writing and getting all the parts to fit together.
Even though I have things all blocked out, it doesn't mean that is the way it will end up being written. Sometimes your characters take you on adventures you weren't expecting, so use all the prep work as a guide to keep you on track and enjoy the people you develop. I will advise all new writers to find classes in what you need to include in a book to make it sell, Character development, dialogue, description, etc. There is sooooo much to learn to improve your writing.

Effie wrote: "How do you start a book? Do you have the whole story mapped out or do you make it up as you go along?"

I have a few ideas for characters in mind and a vague idea of where it will end. I think about them for a while and when I come up with a solid idea for how it begins, I start to write. I like letting my characters tell the story to me.

Sorry, a bit off topic, but can I just clarify? My post was deleted, presumably because I linked to a blog post I wrote. Are we not allowed to link to things, even if they are relevant? I posted the link because otherwise anything I contributed to the discussion would be a repeat of what I'd said on the post. I went in more depth there about my process than I could in a comment here.

I just don't want to break the rules again, so I want to check.

When writing book one of my series I knew where I wanted it to go and how it would end, but not how I was going to get there. I just sat down at my laptop and just let the characters take me along, only making sure along the way it could still get to the desired conclusion.
With books 2 and 3 I am doing it a bit different by plotting it out before hand, at least in a general way. Although I do still let the characters drive how the chapters play out

Most of the time I have a vague outline in my head. I know the beginning, middle, and end in broad strokes. Once I actually wrote it all down to really hammer out the details before actually writing the whole thing. It was an interesting experience.

I have to have a story planned out and outlined from beginning to end or else my brain rebels during the actual writing process. Mostly because I'm rather slow when it comes to planning out my story. I usually start off with a vague idea or a particular concept then flesh it out a little at a time, usually going back and forth between stories as new ideas come to me. Once a story feels as fleshed out as it's going to get I then outline it, and once the outline is done then I start writing.

Aislinn wrote: "Sorry, a bit off topic, but can I just clarify? My post was deleted, presumably because I linked to a blog post..."

I'm not the one who deleted your post, but yes. We do not allow for linking to blogs except in the blog folder. Thanks!

I typically go with the middle path for plot outlining. I make bullet points of the general events of each chapter, but I treat the actual writing very fluid. Sometimes things get shuffled around, deleted, or added. I just use the outline as a general guide rather than a strict format. Alternatively, I always take the time to write up a small paragraph for each primary and secondary character, including why they are in the story, who they are connected to, and what happens to them.

Barbara, and Isaac, both of you have mentioned that you use an outline to get your basic story elements down on paper, then fill in the story from there. I also need an outline, but I am having a real devil of a time finding an outline that makes sense to me (I have downloaded dozens and read them over). I have explored the Snowflake method in some detail, but that just didn't work for me. I have looked at Michael Hauge's six stage plot structure, and combined with several versions of the Beat Sheet, and I am trying to make that work for me, but some of the elements on these sheets, I just don't understand -- like, what the heck is a pinch point? Would either of you (or anyone else who is reading this) be willing to upload a version of an outline that they have used, with some examples to illustrate what each part of the outline means? I am writing a cozy murder mystery, if that helps. I want it to have all of the necessary story elements, without sounding too forced, like a paint-by-numbers story. Thanks!

Dawn wrote: "Barbara, and Isaac, both of you have mentioned that you use an outline to get your basic story elements down on paper, then fill in the story from there. I also need an outline, but I am having a r..."

Dawn, I'll be honest, I had no idea what you were talking abut until I google searched Michael Huage. I think we might be talking about two separate (but very similar!) things. Hauge is discussing the structure of the plot, the idea of a setup, a progression, a climax, etc. This is very general information used as the mold to which you design your story structure. This is what I'm talking about- an outline of the actual events in my story, chapter-by-chater, just as a means of keeping in mind what happens and when. Of course, while building this, the plot points should be kept in mind, although frankly I just follow my gut with that and don't use a formal structure. I will be happy to send you an example of my outlines if you would like, just DM me!

I don't use an outline like we were taught in English class. What I use is a basic framework for the book. There are 3 Acts to each book. Act I sets up the book. It is your introduction of characters and introduces most of your main character. This is usually 3 or more chapters. Act II is generally divided into two parts. It is where your characters get into a mess. This is the action part and where you will reach the midpoint. The second part of ac 2 is the crisis. You will deal with a lot of emotions and regrouping during this section. This is where most of your action will take place. Act III is the mop up and closure.

You have to have all of these to make to book work. What I do is block it out by scenes and what I want to happen in each scene. Each scene is usually a chapter. My first go through is very basic and mostly ideas of how i want the book to progress and setting up the plot. I'll then go through and flesh it out with characters which I'll name at this time. I add and delete scenes and add more detail. On the third go around, I make sure the plot is solid, all the scenes I need are there and add details. All of the above, I hand write on legal pads so I can easily flip through it. This is my guide or outline for when I write. Yes, it is a lot of work. It takes a few weeks or more depending on if you have to do research or a character gives you a problem. Basically, you are setting up the book so it will have everything you need in it. When you do sit down to write, it doesn't take long to get the actual story down with believable dialogue because by now, you should know those characters and what they will say or do.

This is a mixture of a couple of classes I took called "Deep POV" and the James Patterson Master class. The Deep POV gave me what needs to be included (you can change the order but all the basic scenes have to be there) and the Patterson class gave me the practical writing. I took what worked for me from each class. If you think of movies or TV shows, you will understand the progression and plotting. Yes the, plot lines are all basically the same but....it is how you put it together. It can be like a formula or you can pop in the unexpected. You also have multiple minor plots going on which weave throughout the story which make it interesting.

On my current book, I had my basics down, but my characters said I had to take care of some issues which will come up again later in the book, first. My original chapter one is not chapter five. That may change again, but in writing the book, it is how it evolved. So yes, all my planning is just a guide which is subject to change as I go along.

Dawn,

I suggest you read Story Engineering (or Story Physics) by Larry Brooks for an understanding of the terms of story structure. From there, you'll be able to form your own outline - one that makes sense to you. If you'd like, I could provide you one that I use. I'm certain that after reading this (these) book(s) it'll all make sense to you

I work with a co-author, so there's a lot back and forth when we start something. Y'know: "Did not -- did to! Did so! Are we there yet?" A great deal of coffee is consumed. Then wine, and eventually tea. Very occasionally, words appear on the screen. Someone says: "Are you kidding?" The other someone replies: "What?" The first someone shakes her head. The second someone repeats: "What?"

That sounds may sound satirical, but it's much closer to reality than most anyone would believe who hasn't actually seen us work. We don't structure stories or plot them, and we used an outline once for one fairly short but rather complicated part of our last book. It didn't survive, in that the final product didn't follow it, but at least it allows us to keep track of who was doing what where to a degree.

Our stories just grow. Sometimes they grow fast, other times slow, and sometimes they go dormant, maybe for a year or more. We avoid any notion of discipline. We let the story do all the "work" -- then we type.

As has been pointed out [many times], whatever get the thoughts, feeling, and ideas down the way the author intends is a good thing. The only principle I believe in is let the story dictate the structure, not the other way around.

And if you feel you're doing it wrong, that's often a sign you're doing it right.

There are multiple books and classes out there if you need more information. There is the Snowflake method of writing. Another is Techniques of the Selling Writer. Look up Star Workshops and take the Deep POV class. Try the James Patterson Master class. Marcy Kennedy has a lot of great short books which help.

I find that most of the things I read or the classes I have taken have given me more insight into becoming that good writer I want to be. You take pieces that make sense to you and put them all together to make your own method of writing.

I blocked out a book and am doing the NaNoWriMo unofficially and am on Chapter 9 and have deviated from my original plan...but I have the notes so I'll include all the major scenes needed. Yes, your characters will take you places you didn't plan on going. You can rein them in on the edits if they get too far away from the real story or keep where they went because it was better than your original plan.

Like I have said before, I have to have some structure or I end up with a 500k word tome that is not marketable. Also, because I am a fairly new author, I know I needed to learn how to tell my stories better. I'll keep on taking classes, reading and learning as I practice writing. I've already seen the improvement in how I write and how the story unfolds in a more concise way. As any published author will tell you, they didn't make it big on the first few books. it takes time and practice so don't give up.

Barbara wrote: "I don't use an outline like we were taught in English class. What I use is a basic framework for the book. There are 3 Acts to each book. Act I sets up the book. It is your introduction of characte..."

Thanks Barbara. Where did you attend the James Patterson course? I would like to attend at least one conference a year, but because I am new to this field, I don't get the head's up when one is being planned. Any idea how I can get on a mailing list or something so I find out where and when they are being held?

E. W. wrote: "Dawn,

I suggest you read Story Engineering (or Story Physics) by Larry Brooks for an understanding of the terms of story structure. From there, you'll be able to form your own outline - one that m..."

Hi EW, Actually, I have the book "Story Engineering", but after I got through the Snowflake Method, and several of the Beat Sheets, I was kind of dazed and only skimmed through about half of it. I will give it another go, and try to get through it this time. Yes, I would very much appreciate a copy of an outline that you use. Why don't you PM me with it. Thanks!

Dawn, it is an online class. There is video along with text. You can do it at your own speed. I found it helpful. I haven't read the story engineering but have the Snowflake method. I take bits and pieces and use them. My "outline" is really the Deep POV acts and scenes coupled with Patterson's method of getting it down. The Deep POV I took through STAR workshops, again online. This was the one class I found the most helpful in making my books better.
Because I'm traveling the US, I can't really attend conferences unless I'm in that area at the time. I did attend the Florida Romance Writer's cruising conference. I loved the networking and met several well known authors while there. It was a lot of fun.
I'm at the point where I'm learning the finer points such as description, dialogue and scenery and balancing that with the action.

Oh, thanks for that bit of information. I will look up online courses and see what I can find. In the mean time, are you willing to share one of your outlines with me?

What is the word count limit for a Novella?

Garfield wrote: "What is the word count limit for a Novella?"

Various sources have different answers, but the one I see the most often is 17,500 to 40,000 words.

With my first book I had the characters in my head and just ran with the story without too much planning. With my second novel however I have had to do a lot more planning. I created an outline of each character with as much detail as possible such as age, physical appearance, and what makes them tick. I then plan what should happen in each chapter. I pin these on to a board so I can see what is happening at a glance because having memory problems, by the time I get to the middle of the book I start to forget small but important details at the beginning. I sent my first draft off to a professional editor whose advice was invaluable because sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees and it helps to have a fresh pair of eyes look over your work.

Dawn wrote: "Barbara, and Isaac, both of you have mentioned that you use an outline to get your basic story elements down on paper, then fill in the story from there. I also need an outline, but I am having a r..."

I also use an outline, but it is an outline of my own making. Whatever feels right for the particular story I am trying to tell.

For example, I am currently writing a story with a lot of characters in different places that sometimes meet, but then separate again. Once I was ready to start writing I did an outline of the timeline/chronology just so I could have a rough idea of when they needed to meet and when certain important events had to happen.

Another example is a novel I wrote a while ago that is currently being edited. I made up the chapter titles and wrote a sentence about each chapter's main events before starting, but then once I got into it it evolved and many more details were filled in and detours dictated by the characters happened. Then I lost part of it. Then I realized it sucked and completely rewrote it. Then I fleshed it out even more.

Don't take outlining and planning too seriously. Fiction writing is creative, it's not meant to follow rigid rules.

/2cents

Thanks Kim and Noor. Kim, I also have memory problems, so I also need a story board or outline to refer to wo I can keep the story details straight throughout the whole book. Thanks for your input!