All About Books discussion

Here is what is important for me. I see clearly that:
- realism is essential for me.
- how an author writes is essential for me too.

I want balance and clarity in nonfiction.
I want imagination, creativity and expressive language in fiction.

In both I want to feel for the characters, and thus
in both I want the people to be drawn with depth.
In both I want food for thought.
In both I want to learn something.

A touch of humor is usually a plus, but not essential.
I prefer gritty and realistic over fluff.



I think I am beginning to know what I like, but these things are impossible to determine from GR book descriptions and often from reviews. A book can fit the bill in one way but not in another.

Have others of you thought about what it is exactly that makes you like a book?

I do agree with everything you've mentioned. Other than the points you've highlighted:

1.) Characters that aren't one dimensional and don't just "do things" without psychological depth.

2.) A plot that is delicately weaved and not just one that has been constructed purposely to throw off the reader and make things for him/her hard and unable to follow the story without going anywhere.

3.) Finding something new and informative that I had been ignorant of prior reading, not a must but I love learning about something new every time I read.

Most of my points relate to work of fiction because that's what I read most.

Raul, what we are looking for is, well, identical. I definitely want characters to be multidimensional! I am going to add that above to my message b/c it is so important to me and I should have stated it clearly. The thing is, is that for me, a character that isn't multidimensional will not be real! People are in reality very complicated.

Very well Chrissie, I agree, humans are very complicated and ideas and thoughts that characters have as well as the actions they take and consequences that may follow the actions must be considered.

I like a book that pulls you into the world of the characters, rather than baldly explaining everything to you. For instance, in historical fiction, the relevant era should be evoked by the actions and thoughts of the characters rather than by the author adding paragraphs of fact. In any type of fiction, the author shouldn't interpose him/herself between the characters and the reader by telling us about thoughts and emotions. I guess what I am trying to say is " Show, don't tell"

The story doesn't need to be strictly realistic, but it does need to be internally consistent. A character can have a magical power but shouldn't suddenly acquire others without reasons relevant to the world of the story.

- the book cover artwork;
- the writer;
- the genre;
- year first published;
..............not in this given order of course. What I don't fancy a lot are the reviews by critics!

Robert wrote: "What I don't fancy a lot are the reviews by critics!"

Ditto to that! I don't trust them.

I've tried to think about what makes me like a book and it's hard to pinpoint. I know certain subjects of history, society and biography interest me, so I'll often take a chance on these, especially if I see a good review from someone whose tastes I trust (either on GR, youtube, or in newspaper reviews if there's a particularly good article)

As for fiction. I'm very dubious about new fiction, meaning anything published this century! I do get swayed by book awards and again take notice of certain reviews. If the story sounds interesting, no matter what it's about, I might take a chance on it, but I'm much more likely to do this with classics that have stood the test of time.

I like the protagonist and other characters to show some type of growth or enlightenment by the end of the book. Narratives that just stop without some sort of resolution kind of put me off.

Pink wrote: "I've tried to think about what makes me like a book and it's hard to pinpoint. I know certain subjects of history, society and biography interest me, so I'll often take a chance on these, especiall..."

I similarly have come to value "the test of time". Yet, I cannot realistically say that just b/c a book is a classic I'm going to love it. I am left unsure of what to try and when everybody praises a new book I too get pulled in to try them. Sometimes they are good and sometimes they fail me.

Terry wrote: "I like the protagonist and other characters to show some type of growth or enlightenment by the end of the book. Narratives that just stop without some sort of resolution kind of put me off."

That's interesting. I don't need a happy ending or a good resolution but I do need to be kept thinking. If the characters are totally flat, imaginary and without depth I cannot take them or their lives seriously. Are you saying you need a happy ending or or you saying you simply have to understand what they will do, that you don't want an open unclear ending? I like a little guidance, enough to tell me what I think the author sees for them in the future. I don't have to like their choice, but I think you are saying you do. Am I correct?

Mainly ... words. How they're arranged: I don't mind long books, as long as the have not too many words ...

I don't necessarily need a happy ending - I like tragedy! - but my favorite endings tend to be definitive ones, whether good or bad.

I'll certainly read long books, but I need to really like them, I'm more selective than with shorter books.

I read some professional reviews, but mostly at genre-specific sites (like Tor.com for sf/fantasy). The LA Review of Books has a good sf section, though (https://lareviewofbooks.org/sections/sf/).

What draws me to a book varies wildly depending on the subject, my mood, my current interests and what's going on in the world. Some things I look for:

Quality writing. The bedrock basis for my interest.

Themes that are meaningful to me in my present life circumstances. I'm in my early 60s and I find myself drawn to books that have characters of my generation. Writing about the past, aging, what makes a meaningful life and how can you maintain it into old age, are all pertinent to me.

An ending that is reasonable based on the crux of the book.

I read all sorts of books, and often what I look for will depend on the genre. I also don't hesitate to abandon a book if it doesn't speak to me after the first 50-100 pages.

Terri wrote: "Quality writing. The bedrock basis for my interest."

Yep, this seems to be common to all of us!

I wish I could learn to dump a book. You know why I don't? I have found very often, but not always, that if you give a book a real chance many of them turn around. That has happened with what I am reading now, for example. I think, what if I had stopped too early?! It is true books rarely go from two to five stars but they can easily become good three star books, a book definitely worth reading.

Chrissie, it's only since I've gotten older that I've learned to dump a book. I just don't want to waste my time on something that isn't quality.

I just read this passage in How Proust Can Change Your Life that says it all for me:

In reality, every reader is, while he is reading, the reader of his own self. The writer's work is merely a kind of optical instrument which he offers to the reader to enable him to discern what, without this book, he would perhaps never have experienced in himself. And the recognition by the reader in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its veracity,

Terri,
Thanks so much for sharing that quote . Says so much in many ways about why people respond differently to the same book .

I haven't commented yet on the question raised here - still thinking about it!

Terri wrote: "The writer's work is merely a kind of optical instrument which he offers to the reader to enable him to discern what, without this book, he would perhaps never have experienced in himself. "

Oh I like that!

Re dumping books: It is just that books DO turn around.....and I always wonder if I was too hasty and didn't give the book a fair chance to prove itself. I do dump books occasionally, but only when I am 100% sure that I simply cannot stand another minute of it. And BTW how does one define quality? Even if one doesn't particularly like the writing style it can contain interesting information or a new way of seeing something. Sometimes if you force yourself to finish a book you find your own mood molds to the atmosphere of the book. I am saying all of this b/c that is what I see happening to me now as I read The Fall of the House of Wilde: Oscar Wilde and His Family, NOT to be contrary. I am kind of like this, always considering different possibilities, not at all sure f where I stand.

Chrissie, I've also had books that turn around for me, I'm just not that patient anymore. There are more books I like than I can read, so I have to start limits somewhere. When I was young it was a matter of pride for me--"I always finish a book I start"--and I guess it changed for me after a serious illness that almost killed me. I don't have the patience anymore to wait out an author hoping for something better.

I understand that views and practices re reading can vary widely. I like to hear different opinions discussed. It's taken me over 60 years to get to the rich reading life I have now, and I'm happy with my current practices. However, I keep the thought that my practices are for this moment in my life, and they may change later.

Terri wrote: "Chrissie, I've also had books that turn around for me, I'm just not that patient anymore. There are more books I like than I can read, so I have to start limits somewhere. When I was young it was a..."

You are absolutely right that nothing stays stationary, and I certainly do understand how a serious illness could change one's perspective on how soon you dump a book!!!! I really like hearing different people's points of view.

Terri, you are absolutely right, having a life threatening illness certainly changes how much time you will devote to a near-to-middling book.

Angela, like you, I'm still trying thinking about my response to this core question.

I used to never dump a book, now I'll happily give up at any point, depending on the problem. If I think it's poorly written, that can be very early on, if I'm just finding it a bit slow and boring, I'll persevere until at least halfway.

Another thing I've realised is that I prefer heavier subject matters and more depressing books. So that could be about war, death, heartbreak etc. It's not something that I especially look for, I've just noticed that I don't gravitate towards happy stories, such as romance, humour, or beach read type of books.

For instance my current reads are-
The House of Mirth
When Breath Becomes Air
The Good Immigrant

These are pretty reflective of the sort of books I read at the moment, but I try to stay open to any sort of genre and not get too stuck in my own ways.

Pink wrote: "Another thing I've realised is that I prefer heavier subject matters and more depressing books. So that could be about war, death, heartbreak etc. "

I too prefer dark books. My explanation for this is that they give more food for thought.

Thanks for sharing.

In reference to The Good Immigrant. I remember when I had just immigrated to Sweden. What struck me was WHERE you came from was of such importance. This was back in the 70s! I felt it was unfair that people welcomed me MORE b/c I came from the US; those from developing countries were looked down upon. Why aren't people curious to learn about all different cultures? The lack of curiosity in foreign cultures is what bothered me!

That's very true Chrissie. So far this book is good and I'm looking forward to reading several different viewpoints. It's comprised of 21 very short pieces by different authors. I've only read two, but they both made my laugh and shake my head at the stupidity of some situations.

The introduction spoke about how you could prove yourself to be a good black or asian immigrant by winning Olympic gold medals, The Great British Bake Off, or becoming a doctor. Without proving yourself above and beyond these sort of attainments, you are simply one of the bad immigrants. Or course it's all racist and using language as a tool against people, to highlight differences in a negative way. For instance, why are British people abroad ex-pats? What's that all about, surely we're immigrants in other countries too? Though 'immigrant' is only really applied to non white people. Like you say, it's a shame, as we could all learn from different people, cultures , backgrounds, religions etc. and embrace this. Unfortunately the world seems to take two steps forward and one step back when it comes to these things.

Pink, why would I think people's behavior would have changed in 40 years.........I am comparing to the 70s, but of course one can go further back than that. You and I agree. Yes, cultural differences should be embraced!

Pink, I agree with your statement about how we view white and non-white people living abroad. In the true sense of the word. ex-patriot really means a person temporarily or permanently residing, as an immigrant, in a country other than that of their citizenship. The word comes from the Latin terms 'ex' ("out of") and 'patria' ("country, fatherland").

Bette, Pink & Chrissie, your comments remind me of a small incident in my early youth. I was working as a secretary in a British conglomerate and my boss was an expatriate from England. One day I wrote a letter to the editor of the only local English newspaper complaining about the injustice of locals (Chinese) being expected to speak English when conversing with British expatriates and being criticized for speaking poor English, when the latter should be speaking, or at least trying to speak the local language. The letter got published. Then at a lunch gathering, my boss and I discussed the letter. He said to me that it was for our own benefit to speak and write good English, because English is the language of choice in the fields of science, medicine, engineering etc. I felt that I couldn't argue with that utilitarian point. Personally I loved the English language and always preferred it to Chinese in writing. But that was all beside the point. The point was one of mutual respect - foreigners/immigrants should always attempt to use the local language. Apart from that effrontery, I respected and liked my English boss very much, and he was really good to me (later when I was in a desperate need for a job, he recommended me to another English boss).

Alice wrote: "The point was one of mutual respect - foreigners/immigrants should always attempt to use the local language."

I couldn't agree more.

Chrissie wrote: "Alice wrote: "The point was one of mutual respect - foreigners/immigrants should always attempt to use the local language."

I couldn't agree more."
Ditto. I think you miss out on so much if you know nothing of the language. I want to be able to talk to people at bus stops and tell people how nice their babies/ pets are etc and you can't do this if you don't have any of the language . That's why I've worked so had at learning Spanish. Interestingly, people often think that I am Danish or Norwegian when we are in Southern Spain; that's because I speak a bit of Spanish, so I must be something other than English.

Pink wrote: "That's very true Chrissie. So far this book is good and I'm looking forward to reading several different viewpoints. It's comprised of 21 very short pieces by different authors. I've only read two,..."
Nice read. I totally agree with you Pink, but the world has changed......in the negative, I dare say:(. There should be more people like you out there

Great thread and interesting comments .

What a difficult question to answer. I might find it easier to say what puts me off? ..... Anything that smacks of chick-lit or prurience I avoid. Biographies of celebs, stuff that smacks of narcissism, political diatribes.

In a bookshop or library I may decide before going in which shelves to check out to try and resist impulsive purchases.

But when I am being indulgent I know that the title and cover artwork is often the thing that grabs me. An unusual title in particular. Years of shopping with impatient family members in tow has led me to have to be able to make pretty quick decisions which I rarely regret.

However like @Pink there will be themes or topics I am especially interested in and so I will search out books on those topics. Certain current news stories may also appeal especially if it seems that an injustice has been done or there is some sort of cover up. I want to know the whole story not Murdoch's version.

I must confess was tempted to buy a book analysing Trump the other day Don't ask me why.... Fortunately head wisdom stepped in... (Think again this book might make you seriously depressed.)

I also almost always check out a Faber and Faber publication especially if I don't have much time to browse.


I do also like the personal recommendations that some booksellers encourage their staff to add.

Beyond that the blurb at the back, the first couple of pages, or even the first paragraph usually decides it. A good opening, and I am likely to go for it. If I find something appealing but can't buy then these days I take a photo of the cover and see how I feel about it some weeks on. Often I find my enthusiasm has waned in the face of a new interest.

Mostly I just feel unaccountably drawn to a book and can't really say why... Right book for right moment. I do have an awful lot of unfinished books .... Thus I have a lot of "I will get around to this one day" books. But for quick relaxation I usually prefer something in the crime/thriller genre and these days am especially drawn to good historic crime fiction... Thus soaking up some history while enjoying the tale.

Thanks you for explaining so thoroughly, Tweedledum.

I know that covers do grab me, but I get annoyed at myself when this happens. One is not supposed to pick a book by its cover, but, but, but, but they do influence us. I know they do me and it gets me angry. On the other hand it is terribly nice when you want to read a book on the basis of its content AND it has a pretty cover. Then I don't have to feel guilty.

Chrissie wrote: "Thanks you for explaining so thoroughly, Tweedledum.

I know that covers do grab me, but I get annoyed at myself when this happens. One is not supposed to pick a book by its cover, but, but, but, ..."

I think for me the cover and the reality of a book I love or am drawn to become inextricably linked. I may not actually LIKE the cover as a piece of art but that cover goes with that book... And no other.

This really came home to me the other day when I came across a copy of the original hardback translation of Dr Zhivago with the dust jacket intact. I just had to buy that book. When I got it home I took the dust jacket OFF the one I had just bought and reclothed my old well thumbed copy whose dust jacket had disintegrated long ago. How crazy is that?

Tweedledum wrote: "Chrissie wrote: "Thanks you for explaining so thoroughly, Tweedledum.

I know that covers do grab me, but I get annoyed at myself when this happens. One is not supposed to pick a book by its cover..."

That is not crazy, only human. I have never personally done that though. I am glad you told us/me. You know what really annoys me? When the cover is ALL WRONG - like for example the central chharcter has blonde hair and on the cover she has red or brown or black hair. Jeez, how can they do that?

I know that covers affect me, even though I do NOT want them to.

Chrissie wrote: "Tweedledum wrote: "Chrissie wrote: "Thanks you for explaining so thoroughly, Tweedledum.

I know that covers do grab me, but I get annoyed at myself when this happens. One is not supposed to pick ..."

Similarly I dislike it when a new edition comes out with the TV characters on the cover especially if they supersede an older loved TV or film version. ..... (Tinker Tailor comes to mind) i understand why they do it but to me a work of fiction should not really be forever linked in people's mind to one specific face or set of faces. Thus lovely as Colin Firth was in Pride and Prejudice I would NEVER buy a copy with him on the cover.

Still these days people are so TV or film orientated for many that is the only reason that they may turn to the book.

A few years ago I bought Faber and Faber: Eighty Years of Book Cover Design now that really I think was the book that made me look, look and look again at book cover design and appreciate genius and deplore laziness in design.

I was also an original Puffin Club member and it was a real treat each month or each quarter to get those lovely magazines through the post with such enticing book covers highlighted.

Tweedledum wrote: "but to me a work of fiction should not really be forever linked in people's mind to one specific face or set of faces."

Oh, I do agree. Also, I want to imagine the characters in my own head. I think a book gives one more freedom and allows one to use imagination. With a movie, there they are, the actors faces and manners, fixed in your brain. I do not think a book and its movie should be coupled as tightly as they are today. but what can you do? Of course movies will be made. I just say separate the two; keep them independent of each other.

Once I went to a meeting about books, but above all for authors, not readers (but I was curious so I went nevertheless). Well, there was also a graphic designer and he said that what sells a book is above all the cover. He was referring above all to new books, not classics. He also said that when a buyer enters a bookshop the first thing he sees are the covers. If a buyer doesn't know what to buy he is attracted by covers so they have to be important, sometimes even more than the book blurb. Even if a buyer goes in a bookshop knowing what to buy, he will be attracted by covers so maybe he will buy other books only thanks to the cover. In his opinion the best cover ever is this . And I think he is right. I looked at that cover so many times and I always wanted to buy the book only for the cover. Thanks God I have a good selfcontrol and I don't like to waste money before looking for friend's reviews and ratings.

Pink wrote: "I've tried to think about what makes me like a book and it's hard to pinpoint. I know certain subjects of history, society and biography interest me, so I'll often take a chance on these, especiall..."

Pink, you and I are alike in this (not our tastes but in our wariness, especially re: new books).

I find it quite difficult to come up with a list like Chrissie has but in general, I prefer plot-driven books over character studies. A really exciting & well written plot can make me put up with one-dimensional characters though of course well-rounded characters would be better. I find books that are purely about character often bore me -- The Sense of an Ending for example.

Leslie, there is a difference in what we like b/c I go more for the character portrayals and you the plot! I think this becomes evident in our different book choices. Like you and Pink, I also am a bit skeptical to contemporary books....but I will try them on and off!

Chrissie wrote: "Leslie, there is a difference in what we like b/c I go more for the character portrayals and you the plot! I think this becomes evident in our different book choices. Like you and Pink, I also am a..."

Yes, I have noticed that before -- though sometimes we do like the same book, when we differ it is often for this reason.

Leslie wrote: "Yes, I have noticed that before -- though sometimes we do like the same book, when we differ it is often for this reason."

Exactly!

I find this question very hard to answer, being bilingual and bi-cultural (of two distinctly different cultures). I think I like Chinese books for reasons that may be entirely different from those with English books. (For example, I have a soft spot for Chinese poetry, and tend to look for books that have poetic prose, but have no such predilection in choosing English fiction.) In general, I am much more drawn to world historical fiction and classics than to new fiction, for both cultures. I wonder if this has to do with my passionate love for the Chinese martial arts & chivalry novels (all set in the ancient past) that I devoured growing up. Plot and character depiction are equally important to me, but occasionally a well-executed unique plot would sway me more than the characters. And I prefer real historical characters to fictional ones being the subject of historical fiction.

As Alice says, such a hard question. I often puzzle over people having completely different reactions. Chrissie, like you, characterizations are one of the most important things for me. Like you and Raul, I definitely want psychological depth, where people act out of their unique, personal, complex psychology. I definitely agree with Robin on internal consistency. And I'm generally not big on plot, though I like some fun plot on occasion Leslie! And growth is a plus for me too Terry. But I often disagree with many friends, though we do agree on books too. I've been struggling with this, trying to understand what accounts for some differences, and this is the best I've come up with:

For me, characterization is about an approach to something mysterious, like dangling my feet over a darkness and feeling an answering prickle inside me that knows something true. What reveals character best to me are an accumulation of fine details: gestures, thoughts, small things, .... These things draw me close enough that truth can be heard by intuition, like a quiet hum below the level of speech. For me, the characterizations in Housekeeping (which I know you hated Chrissie) were superb. I have known people like Sylvie, people who were missing some little thing inside of them that made it impossible for them to fit; so they had to exist at the margins. It's a heartbreaking thing to watch. It's not sensible - no one would reasonably choose that, but it's real. And I can't imagine a better or more searing portrait of what that feels like to inhabit that space between, the pain of it but also the precious uniqueness that's almost magnetic within it. Over the years, I've known a couple people like Sylvie, and the book was able to draw me close enough to these characters to understand things about those people I've known that I've never understood before.

So why then? I don't know. Maybe Robinson's book approached the construction of character more like poetry, by leaps of intuition, not by anything logical. I guess for me, understanding a character isn't an intellectual thing - it's a gesture or a metaphor that carries me forward, like a spark across an air gap, and then later another spark across another gap, and after a few thousand leaps, it takes me somewhere new. There's logic to it but only afterwards, looking backward from the leap. It isn't a logical experience at all to get there. It sounds corny, but unexplainable knowing is what's most precious to me in a reading experience. Often with books, the most precious things to know are things that can't even be expressed in words; they can only be felt.

Another difference: I have no trouble at all with being confused or with techniques that are confusing. When Faulkner or Woolf or Kawabata disorientingly drops me in the middle of a story and I have to thrash around a little bit to figure out who everyone is and what relationship everyone has to each other, I don't see it as a pretentious attempt by the author to befuddle me. Often, I think it's that difficulty in orienting myself that paradoxically makes me understand better .. it's like being dropped in the middle of a dark lake and having to find my way back to the shore by only shadows and shapes .. and then slowly swimming around to touch each of the landmarks until I can build a full picture of the landscape in my head; only then, I can orient myself enough swim back to the middle and begin. But once I'm back where I started, I can feel the touch of all those landmarks in my hands; so every movement is richer .. it's not uncomfortable; it's engaging, a pleasure of discovery. If the lake were all bright to begin with, yes I'd know exactly where to go, but I wouldn't have lingered. I wouldn't have touched everything so intimately; I'd have just swum past so many things without noticing. Does that make sense?

Here's a completely different example for it: there's two ways to learn how to solve a difficult math problem, and both work. One is to have examples demonstrated in class; then you understand the fundamentals, and you can work the problems out by yourself. The other way is to struggle with the mystery of it in a math book until the intuition strikes and you have the sudden excitement of understanding how that type of problem is done. Even as a child, I would learn better by struggling first. Not everyone is like that at all! My sister liked clear examples, and then she knew the concepts well; that worked for her. Me .. I would just daze and daydream in class and then I'd go home at night and figure it all out myself from the book. I think for me, it's the struggling to get my mind to grasp it on its own that makes things fully sink in. Yes, it's not the fastest way to the answer, but somehow when I get to the end after struggling, my brain is built to understand it in a deeper way. So I actually enjoy that feel of something that's puzzling at first. I don't see an author's style that makes things temporarily confusing as being pretentious or deliberately obscure so much as presenting me with a different pathway, and this is all true as long as I can in fact eventually get there. With enough time and re-reading and flipping back and forth, I do want to be able to understand. I might have to read seven chapters and then flip back and re-read the first chapter again, then perhaps re-read a couple paragraphs in the third chapter a dozen times, and that's ok.

On the other hand, if no matter what I do, I can't come to any understanding that makes coherent sense to me, I won't enjoy the book. If the majority of a book is impossible for me to follow unless I flip back and forth to Spark Notes, I won't appreciate it. For me, reading a book is an experience, a bunch of jumps in intuition, a prickle of discovery on the back of my neck; having to have someone else explain to me what a book means destroys the whole experience. It's fine (great actually) to read critics' papers to expand my own understanding afterwards, but that's only useful if I have some fairly coherent understanding of my own as a starting place to begin with. So I doubt I'll ever be in a place to appreciate a book like Finnegans Wake. Who knows, maybe someday, but right now, no.

What else?

Ok, I'm a sucker for a little redemption. I don't mind sad stories. I loved All Quiet on the Western Front. I loved The House of Mirth. But in both of these books, there's an underlying sense that there is such a thing as redemption, even if it's out of reach. The stories are sad, but the authors' world views aren't bleak - it's in fact because they care about their characters' predicaments that they wrote those stories in the first place. What I can't take are books that written by authors with an unrelentingly bleak world view, that see human beings as utterly amoral, self-serving, and despicable by nature, that see no sense to the human condition at all really, that see no possibility of meaning in life whatsoever. It's a valid viewpoint, but it's not one that I can exist in for too many pages. It just feels like a giant sinkpool to death for me, and I can't take it.

Another thing is a vivid writing style. I love to see pictures in my head, hear sounds, taste scents, especially if described in ways that feel fresh to me. A lush, thick writing style full of fresh images is a huge plus and carries me past a great many flaws.

I like imagination and fancy too. A sense for the fanciful is a definite plus, and more than anything a proper love of wonder! That alone can make books worth reading! I love the taste of true wonder.

And all of these things I've said are true, but sometimes, I just like a great story too. Sometimes I just want to relax and have someone entertain me with a good yarn. My reading tastes are really quite varied.

Oh well, I don't know if I've explained anything well at all, but that will have to be enough. Time for bed!!

Greg, I love your deep well thought out answer. You have really thought and taken the time to explain.

That characterization is so important to both of us and yet we can read the same novel and react differently is perhaps because different life experiences change how each of us react to the book's gestures and metaphors. The gestures and metaphors will create different sparks in different people, and there exist different air gaps for different readers. I love how you describe the process. The process I think occurs in all of us but our individual experiences and personality quirks influence the sparks and the gaps. Often an individual can be scarcely aware of the events that have shaped them. I am using your words to relate back to the explanations you have given.

Then in paragraph four and five you tackle one's willingness to be confused, which is interesting too. What you say certainly does make sense, and I too feel that true understanding has to be worked out within, often as with a revelation resulting from all that has been absorbed. Following a to b to c doesn't give the comprehensive understanding experienced when a full picture of diverse tidbits come together. Here again I love how you depict the process. BUT I too thinkas you do and yet I may react with annoyance at confusion while you suck it up. Why? Could it be, and I am just thinking, that I live my life everyday dealing with the problem of trying to understand blood glucose values that do not make sense. I spend every minute of the day and night planning how make sense of what maybe cannot be made sense of. If I can make sense of the data I will benefit, so I need to understand. Maybe I get an overload sometimes? Or maybe the assorted data I have to makes sense of in a novel have to have a real meaning. I have to feel there is a point in solving the dilemma. I think it is this that is what is important to me. I have to want/need to know the answer. I agree that when you finally understand one feels a great sense of satisfaction. Often understanding how people relate in a given situation IS something that will arouse my interest.

We both value immensely the images drawn through different writing styles and creativity and imagination. Creating something new has to be valued.

Greg, thank you for thinking so hard on this. I really appreciate your thoughts and how you have so beautifully illustrated these thoughts through metaphors.

When you think about all that is involved in creating a good book you realize that writing is art.

Chrissie wrote: "Greg, I love your deep well thought out answer. You have really thought and taken the time to explain.

That characterization is so important to both of us and yet we can read the same novel and re..."

Thanks so much Chrissie! I love reading your reviews (and several of my other friends' reviews) because I can see how deeply you think about books, and I love understanding your perspective. So many of my friends on Goodreads are wonderful readers (and wonderful people), and it just drives me crazy sometimes trying to understand why people don't see what I see in certain books, especially when there are other books we see so similarly.

I think you're right that it is partly experience. You can't cross the air gap unless you have a little intuition for what's on the other side, and you can't quite understand what people are getting from the experience of crossing unless you cross. I know this is true for me sometimes too because certain books like Crime and Punishment so many of friends love; I know that there must be something there beyond just an intellectual understanding of concepts and theories but somehow I just don't respond to that book. I understand it intellectually, but I know I'm missing something major in the experience of it.

I also think that some books are more universal where others are more specific; they work best for certain people. I don't think that universal books are necessarily the "best" art because more targeted books can be amazingly potent, in my experience sometimes much more so than very universal ones. Maybe Housekeeping works better for people who have had loved ones who struggled with certain kinds of mental illness or who have been forced at some point of their life to live on the fringes of society looking in? It's frustrating when I read certain books where so many things seem very clear to me that not many other people are getting. But then there are other books that many other people get that I'm not getting at all. And I do love Goodreads for exposing me to those differences even if I can't always fully make sense of them.

As far as willingness to be confused, I think I have an extremely high tolerance for it as long as I can work through it to a coherent outcome and eventually understand. I don't know why really. I know I will pick at a knot much longer than most people. I think it's completely reasonable of you to say that a dilemma has to have a point though. It's a little weird to enjoy picking at knots, but I do enjoy it sometimes. Not always of course - it would be too tiring. But sometimes I'm in a knot picking mood, and that's when I pick up one of those books that I know will have some major piles of knots. I think in different stages of our lives we can have more or less patience for that sort of thing too, depending on what's going on in our lives.

Thanks so much Chrissie for all you put into Goodreads. You and several others make the experience here so much richer than it would be otherwise! :)

Greg wrote: "and it just drives me crazy sometimes trying to understand why people don't see what I see in certain books, especially when there are other books we see so similarly."

Yes, exactly, this drives me nuts too. That is why I started this thread!

I am one of those who adores Crime and Punishment! It speaks right to me. I love how the characters are so complicated....because that is how I think people are.

I love your expression - "when I am in a knot-picking mood"! I do know the huge satisfaction felt when you think you have solved a problem, but somehow I have to be connected so I see the point in solving it.

Good Reads is what it is because of ALL of us. Thank you, Greg, for being here too!

Greg, I used to be like that, driven crazy sometimes when people don't see what I do in certain books.

I don't have an answer I can put into words for you that will really explain what it is. But this is how I am about a number of things--some things are just about feeling that is beyond words, and for some books that's it. It's not just the writing and the story and the people. It's why one composer can have some music I love, and other music I think so-so or dislike (in classical music as well as other types of music) even if equally brilliant.

Karin wrote: "Greg, I used to be like that, driven crazy sometimes when people don't see what I do in certain books.

I don't have an answer I can put into words for you that will really explain what it is. But ..."

I definitely agree Karin that this is partly beyond words. We can try to describe it, but that only brings us close. The experience of the book is a separate thing.

Great description, Greg, of your reaction to books. I think it's hard to put into words why we like or don't like something. I do think life experiences make a difference. In one book group, we read a novel about a dysfunctional family (I'm not sure which one of the many that exist). I found the characters and their behavior exaggerated but several people in the group spoke up to say they totally recognized this from their own lives.

I also enjoy books that make you work a bit, such as non chronological time lines or unreliable narrator or an unfamiliar culture. But sometimes I just like to read a totally predictable romance or cozy mystery. If something doesn't fit the genre, like the heroine in a romance dies of cancer, I feel betrayed. I think of those lighter genres like candy. Digesting one every so often is delightful but if that's all I take in, I start feeling a bit sick.

I also think our reaction to a book can change throughout our lives. Classics I read in high school or college sometimes bounced off me because I didn't have the life experiences of love, grief, etc. to appreciate them. When I reread them later, I got much more out of them.

Robin wrote: "I do think life experiences make a difference."

I can't agree more. And one's values, beliefs, cultural background too. I often think that whether an author speaks to a reader has to do with a kind of chemistry between the two.