Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

So Lisa you admit "empty space"is not nothing but something and therefore something comes from something and NOT from nothing? :)
Welcome to the Way of Zero (the truest purest number of all)

James wrote: "But Krish, either something is infinite (endless) or finite and has an end somewhere. Our perceptions are irrelevant to the real measurement. Or am I missing something?
P.S. Why has this thread shi..."

In mathematical problems, when dividing zero by zero (0/0), you will run into infinity.

James wrote: "So Lisa you admit "empty space"is not nothing but something and therefore something comes from something and NOT from nothing? :)
Welcome to the Way of Zero (the truest purest number of all)"

Are you implying that zero is the same as nothing?

Zero is the antithesis of nothing Lisa!

I'm getting a headache, Masi.
I thought zero was about simplicity?!

No Lisa, I'm saying Zero is Everything not Nothing (I have no idea why I am over-capitalizing, but it makes me seem more right so I will continue...)

Masi [Hey Hey Hey] (S.B.QP) wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Masi [Hey Hey Hey] (S.B.QP) wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Krishna wrote: "infinity is a variable because it's relative... something which is of finite size to a man, is of infinite size to an a..."

lol....I'm BSing for the most part, Masi....but when using ∞ in math, do you really ever get a concrete numerical answer? Is the answer really even ever a variable? How can you know when you don't have a number with a value/values?

Infinity is never assigned a number in math, because it isn't one...so how can it be a variable when a variable is a definition of certain numbers?

But if infinity is everything, how can it not be assigned a number, Lisa? Could it be mathematicians haven't evolved to the point where the realize infinity deserves to be a number?
And that that number already exists...
And that number is (...drum roll please...) ZERO!

James wrote: "No Lisa, I'm saying Zero is Everything not Nothing (I have no idea why I am over-capitalizing, but it makes me seem more right so I will continue...)"

OK....I'm a little confused about what I'm arguing for and against here, but...let's say that you are saying that Zero is everything and therefore everything is nothing, because empty space is not nothing,.......but in reality it is everything.......meaning....the atoms that make up empty space is the origin/groundwork of all creations in existence.....I can say this to be a fact because I am the original god, Zero ;)

You have now been accepted into the Way of Zero.

James wrote: "But if infinity is everything, how can it not be assigned a number, Lisa? Could it be mathematicians haven't evolved to the point where the realize infinity deserves to be a number?
And that that n..."

symbolically it is....hence the wedding ring (symbolism of eternal love)

If you assign infinity a number, you are then giving it a finite value....meaning, you are basically slicing a gap in the ring...so you have to choose: do you want zero to have a numerical value or do you want it to be infinte?

Both!

James wrote: "Both!"

Speaking like a true Way of Zero!

A true Zero Hero!

Bingo, Tim.

Tim wrote: "James wrote: P.S. Why has this thread shifted from zero to infinity? Is that possibly because the true meaning of zero IS infinity?

Could the truth be cloned, perfect repeated patterns within rep..."
I like it! Excellent example.

Therefore, can we not say then, that zero does have value, but without being confined to being a number?

It's a number, but not only a number - it transcends its own numberhood.

Here's a song about zero by the little known 1980s Scottish indie rock band TV21
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-htBdwn...

Tim wrote: "Lisa wrote: Therefore, can we not say then, that zero does have value, but without being confined to being a number?

I think zero is an aspect of truth, thus its value is incalculable..."

Exactly, and should not be confused with infinity.....like going back to your previous statement:

"could the circular truth be that every repeated pattern has its own uniqueness and it is the value of the uniqueness being added to the whole that defines our value?"

...where perhaps zero represents the uniqueness of every repeated pattern, while infinity represents the incalcuable value of the amount of unique patterns which existed in the past, exist in present and will exist in future?

Lisa wrote: "where perhaps zero represents the uniqueness of every repeated pattern, while infinity represents the incalcuable value of the amount of unique patterns which existed in the past, exist in present and will exist in future? ..."

Wow...that went right over my head...
I'm starting to learn the meaning of zero...As in, ZERO BRAIN CELLS LEFT!!!!

all this is so confusing!!!
so what is the final conclusion??
sometimes while solving physics and chemistry problems, we assume infinity to be a variable
like some reaction takes infinite time (which just means more than. 24hrs) or something is done at infinite time which means a long time

Krishna wrote: "all this is so confusing!!!
so what is the final conclusion?? "

final conclusion?
Slow down, we gotta work out what infinity is first, and the nature of the universe itself, before we can work out the enigma of zero...

But here's something to go on with:

The Origin of the Number Zero -- Deep in the jungle, an intrepid scholar locates a symbol of power and mystery http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history...

Of course zero is a number. Think of the progression -2, -1, 1, 2 … The gap between -1 and +1 is twice that of every other gap.

The arguments relating to physics are, in my opinion, misleading. Physics laws invariably do not apply as you get closer to zero. For example, in Coulomb's law, where attractive energy is inversely proportional to separation distance, let an electron approach a positron. The energy never gets to infinity. When the two of them get close enough, suddenly they cease to exist and two photons of gamma radiation fly off. My view is, if you have an equation where something can cause an infinity, something else will happen before it does.

so in physics 0 is treated sometimes as a number and sometimes as a concept to get the desired results?

I thought of a question:

Take this discussion thread. The original post was obviously the first. There was no "zeroeth" post as nothing can come before that. So is that an example where zero is illusory or not really a number?

actually use of 0 vary from subject to subject...
for example, in maths we count position in a series like 1,2,3....
but in programming it's like 0,1,2....
and also in electronics 0 is used to denote low signal...
but the question is why 0 only varies so much and not other numbers? is it an illusion??

James, the zeroeth post was the one that came before the first. It just happens to have zero content :-)

Krishna, no, zero is never invoked in physics to get the desired result, nor should any other number, for that matter. It can be like the post referred to above. Zero current simply means there is no current. The problems arise when the variable is in the denominator. Dividing by zero is a no no.

Ian wrote: "Of course zero is a number. Think of the progression -2, -1, 1, 2 … The gap between -1 and +1 is twice that of every other gap.

The arguments relating to physics are, in my opinion, misleading. Ph..."

Thanks Ian, for explaining this stuff for the layman.
Zero is quite fascinating.

Isn't time the dimension that our 3-D space is moving through?

I'm with Ian. Zero (0) is simply another location on a number line.

I'm still confused about 0 in physics....

and from where time came?? but is it an illusion or something confusing like 0?

Apparently time originated with the big bang.

The word 'before' has no meaning in the absence of time.

Asking what was before the universe is a very odd question.

If something is persistent, irrevocable and consistent - such as time - might as well treat it as real and move on to more useful answerable questions.

You only have some much 'time' to live and it's a irreplaceable resource.

Krishna wrote: "I'm still confused about 0 in physics....

and from where time came?? but is it an illusion or something confusing like 0?"

Hold true to Way of the Zero, Krish :)
We need a renowned physicist to enter this debate to explain why they have differing theories on the meaning of zero.

And another question, Ian said we can't divide by zero. But can we times a number to the power of zero? Or even zero to the power of zero?

something to the power exists and that is always 1....but zero to the power 0 is undefined

there's a question... can time be circular?

Krishna wrote: "something to the power exists and that is always 1....but zero to the power 0 is undefined"

So you're saying zero to the power to zero is a possible calculation? Or impossible?

yes it's impossible.... but don't know why...
one explanation might be that u can't multiply "nothing","nothing" times

Zero to the power of Zero is undefined.

https://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffi...

But it's heading toward 1 before it puffs into 'undefined' status.

I truly enjoyed reading the discussion.

[1] What empirical phenomena requires time to be circular to explain it.

[2] If you propose time to be circular, what physical test could be conducted that would falsify the proposition.

Does Zero-point energy (ZPE) fit into this discussion at all?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-po...

Zero-point energy (ZPE) or ground state energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical system may have.

I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that in math, zero is considered a number, but isn't that a confined interpretation of something far more comprehensive?

What if zero was just meant as symbol "O", but was just converted into a number for mathematical convenience?

Just like infinity isn't a number, perhaps zero is meant to be the same...we use it because its position cannot be acquired by an actual number.

As for measuring purposes and charts and graphs...it serves mostly as a distinction between opposites (+/-).

Re Temple: If it's zero degrees outside, fahrenheit or celcius....and you're standing outside naked....your name is either Wim Hof or you're just plain crazy......well....crazy either way ;)

Tim, of course you would experience time, unless you were dead. Do you want to eat? Look, there is food. after you see it you put in your fork. You lift fork to mouth . . . You cannot have a sequence of events without time.

Lisa wrote: "I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that in math, zero is considered a number, but isn't that a confined interpretation of something far more comprehensive?

What if zero was just meant as symbol "..."

The plot thickens and my confusion grows!
What's weird is they say mathematics is a precise science, so why does it seem as if many mathematicians say zero is not a "natural number"?
Should this thread be renamed ZERO DEFINITIVE ANSWERS??

Lisa wrote: "I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that in math, zero is considered a number, but isn't that a confined interpretation of something far more comprehensive?

What if zero was just meant as symbol "..."

Where this is going is the definition of terms. If the question is, is it s number, in my view the answer is yes, but if you ask, can it be something else as well, then you are back to your issue of definitions.

Ian wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Where this is going is the definition of terms. If the question is, is it s number, in my view the answer is yes, but if you ask, can it be something else as well, then you are back to your issue of definitions. ..."

Can that "something else" also be infinity, Ian?
Does infinity lie somewhere within zero?

Infinity is essentially the reciprocal of zero. Actually, infinity is a very awkward concept. It cannot be a number because it is the largest, so if it were a number, what is infinity plus one?

Good point, Ian.
Also, does anyone know which culture was first to draw zero as a circle?
Why a circle I wonder?

The shape of the numerals are irrelevant to the definition of the numbers that they represent. The current system is made up of arabic numerals that were easier to use than roman numerals. While the difference in ease of use between arabic and roman numerals may have implications in understanding the human mind, that does not change the numbers that the numerals represent. There is no quantifiable difference in definition between the word zero and the numeral 0.

0+1=1 is simpler, easier and quicker than zero plus one equals one, but they mean the exact same thing.

I have zero interest in whether zero is a number... and yet here I am reading every damned post in this thread...and for some unfathomable reason I wanna be a Zero Hero!

Can someone inform me how I become a Zero Hero?