Support for Indie Authors discussion

C.B. wrote: "It isn't the length of your chapters, it is what you do with it that counts!"

Why isn't there a 'like' button on this site? xD

"I agree that it is what you write that counts, however, if you format your own book beware not to leave empty pages, if possible.
Remember new chapters start on odd pages."

Blaque wrote: "Hey guys. I am working on the revisions of my first book and I have noticed that some of my chapters are longer than others. I didn't intentionally want my chapters to be different lengths, but the..."

I never predetermine chapter lengths, even in my most detailed outlines the chapters are as long or as short as they need to be. Personally, I enjoy reading books with varying chapter lengths because it creates a dynamic experience and rejuvenates my efforts. I love having a short chapter sprinkled in now and then to motivate me to read just one more chapter before going to bed.

I agree that chapter lengths should be (one of the most overused word, but I'll still use it) 'organic'. However, one of my all time favourite authors, Mario Vargas Llosa, is one of the strictest formalists I know of, and his chapters are always the same length (i.e. same number of pages). In his case he does it so well that it feels totally natural, part of the natural rhythm of his storytelling.

On my second book my editor commented that my chapters might be too long. What with sample chapters being available on amazon she might have an important point (though I couldn't really do anything about it for that book; it wouldn't have worked). For my new book I'm finding I'm using shorter chapters a la Elena Ferrante. I'll be ending up with some 80 or 90 chapters as opposed to some 20 odd in the other books. Will it make the book more readable? Time will tell, I guess

Magnus wrote: "I agree that chapter lengths should be (one of the most overused word, but I'll still use it) 'organic'. However, one of my all time favourite authors, Mario Vargas Llosa, is one of the strictest f..."

Overuse organic all you want it's a healthy word lol

I never try to determine a chapter by word count. I try to work toward what plot points I intended for the chapter, and that means some chapters are longer than others. It works better for me that way, and leaves chapters feeling natural (at least for me).

Am I the only one who writes a first draft without any chapters? Scene breaks, yes, but I don't worry about chapters until I start rewriting. I used to write in chapters, but I found it interfered with the flow of the story.

Having said that, my current project is very much written in chapters, but it works for the structure of this story and the way I've scheduled my writing.

Pamela wrote: "Am I the only one who writes a first draft without any chapters?"

Nope. You're not.

I try to keep my chapter lengths even, but at the same time, I try really hard not to end them at awkward places. Usually, I try to shoot for over 2,000 words; there was one instance, though, where a short chapter of 1,000 words just felt right.

On the whole I aim for an even length, but content should dictate, surely- and genre demands come into this, I would have thought....I think I once read that the 'ideal' - whatever that means - is 3,000 - but that might have changed

When I first write a chapter I have an idea of the length I want it to be based off what I want the total word count for the book to me. I usually have a range and then I write and estimate. After the book is done I look it over. If the word count is below or above what I want I usually go in and either get rid of or add to a chapter. I also account for the fact that someone will edit it and hopefully not chop the crap out of it. For the most part it usually works in my favor.

I feel you need to have a general idea of the word counts for each chapter but on the other hand I've read books which have one chapter at 13 pages and then the next chapter is two pages so I guess it's more based off preference. Personally I like my chapters all around the same length.

In the novel that I'm about to release, my chapter lengths vary a great deal. I think the longest is around 15 pages and the shortest is 2. That came out of necessity, though. There are 2 different POVs and the second POV has to be brief, sometimes.

Dylan wrote: "In the novel that I'm about to release, my chapter lengths vary a great deal. I think the longest is around 15 pages and the shortest is 2. That came out of necessity, though. There are 2 different..."

My point exactly. It's more based off preference then actuality or necessity. Your 15 and 2 is a perfect example but there's nothing wrong with that.

Whenever I write, I try to have more then five chapters, because I'm a little OCD about that, but I think that as long as you get your point out, it doesn't matter how long the chapter is.

I'm back to scratching my head on this but within good reason. I have an idea of how many chapters I want to make my upcoming novel although saying it and what it turns out to be are two completely different things. I usually keep my chapters around the same length and I'm not usually a fan of 1,2, or even three page chapters as I feel it's a waste and pointless(just my opinion). I will say they do work if that it how your book is structured. I'll throw a number out at 12-15 page chapter length although subject to change lol.

I really do not think you should be scratching your head Justin. Your method sounds very similar to mine. I usually try to keep each chapter to 12 to 16 pages (even mark the number of pages to try to keep them to that length). I try to end each chapter with something that will make one want to turn the page to the next chapter to see what happens next. I never know how many chapters until I'm finished--I have a story to tell and how many chapters is how many chapters it takes. I believe adhering to a strict guideline may take away from your own creativity. I believe you should just do what feels right for you.

I spent a great amount of time researching chapter lengths, because I was paranoid some of mine were too short. In the end, I just decided that each chapter would be as long as it needed to be.
I just follow my plan, and make sure each chapter includes the needed plot points, whether that takes 2000 words or 7000 words just depends on how I end up writing them.
I agree that trying to stick to a particular length will take away from creativity, and will hinder your writing. Which is why I try not to worry about chapter lengths.
Easier said than done, as I can't help but worry about my chapters if they're under 2000 words. Then I get tempted to cut them.

I think everyone else has said it already, really.
The chapter is as long as it needs to be.

I worried too, but only now keep a vague check on it.
I'm just formatting my latest for paperback, and happily they hover around the 10 book page mark, but this is pure coincidence, and sometimes there's blank pages as my brain insists on chapters starting on the right.

Just go with the flow xx

C.B. wrote: "It isn't the length of your chapters, it is what you do with it that counts!"

I agree. I have several chapters of my novel that are shorter than others but I think you have to to get the flow of the story right.

T.L. wrote: "I think everyone else has said it already, really.
The chapter is as long as it needs to be.

I worried too, but only now keep a vague check on it.
I'm just formatting my latest for paperback, an..."

I agree. I aim for around 2,000 words per chapter, mainly because as a reader, I don't care for long chapters. However, I do not follow this rule rigidly. I have some chapters that are less, and some that are quite a bit more. It just depends on what I want to have happen in the chapter.

I think it's fine to have different chapter lengths. I end a chapter when I've finished relating one significant event, and things are about to change in some way, then leave it up in the air to make the reader want to read on to the next. They all end up different lengths.

I did it!
I finally managed to do it!

In my latest work there is a chapter that is zero words long! Not even a piece of punctuation. It's just blank.

I couldn't be more happy.

C.B. wrote: "I did it!
I finally managed to do it!

In my latest work there is a chapter that is zero words long! Not even a piece of punctuation. It's just blank.

I couldn't be more happy."

And now someone needs to find a way to have a negative number of words on a chapter.

Dwayne wrote: "And now someone needs to find a way to have a negative number of words on a chapter"

That would be the ultimate Chapter. I must try!

C.B. wrote: "Dwayne wrote: "And now someone needs to find a way to have a negative number of words on a chapter"

That would be the ultimate Chapter. I must try!"

The reader keeps trying to turn the page, but it just keeps deleting the book.

C.B. wrote: "I did it!
I finally managed to do it!

In my latest work there is a chapter that is zero words long! Not even a piece of punctuation. It's just blank.

I couldn't be more happy."

Oh, I actually loved how Stephanie Meyer did something similar in her book, New Moon. She had like 2 or 3 chapters in a row where it was nothing more than a blank sheet with a month's name. I turned the page and it had "December" on it. It was quite moving actually. Like you knew time was passing, but it didn't really matter. At least, nothing good was coming out of that month. I thought, "Brilliant!" I know she's not seen as the best writer, but that was a great tactic.

Eric wrote: "I believe that the chapter should be as long (or short) as it takes to say what needs to be said and then move on. Some people obviously have different writing styles, and so do what works for you ..."

I'm with you on this. I've written a novel with huge chapters, because my chosen structure dictated it, moving through the events of a holiday. Now with the current one, chapters are much shorter - just depends on the story and what you are trying to achieve.

I used to worry about this big time, but no longer :>)

C.B. wrote: "I did it!
I finally managed to do it!

In my latest work there is a chapter that is zero words long! Not even a piece of punctuation. It's just blank.

I couldn't be more happy."

Haha, well done <3

I wrote smaller chapters for my book Timberwolf and I readers reacted very positively to that. Many said that the since the chapters were only a few pages long, that they felt compelled to keep reading. I’ve heard of people finishing my book in just one sitting or during a flight for this reason. The risk is that you don’t want your book to feel choppy, so you have to be careful there. Also, it might help the writing process to have short chapters. It’s much less intimidating to write 3 pages than 30. For me, all of this is helpful as I write scene-based action/sci-fi material. So it’s mostly with characters experiencing the story in real-time. It might not work for other genres.

Does anyone decide how many chapters they want in their book and plan them out before they start writing?

I do this as I find it a good practice, it helps me determine what I want each chapter to be about and better organizes a structure for me.

Not me. i let the story choose how many chapters and how many pages/wc it is going to have. Honestly, I have no control over it, not even over my characters. ;)

No. I let the chapters be as long as they need to be. I'd rather use that time and detailed energy on plot, characters, storyline, pacing, flow, etc.

Hmm..seems Im the only one who plans out chapters before hand lol

I doubt you're the only one, Justin. But, when I work on a novel, I generally write the whole thing out with no breaks. About the third draft, I start breaking it up into pieces and every pass after that will will break the pieces more or meld them together, looking for the length that feels right for the book.

Justin wrote: "Hmm..seems Im the only one who plans out chapters before hand lol"

No you're not the only one. There was someone else discussing this on another thread. I forget which group it was in. There were a few others. And Justin there's nothing wrong with planning out your chapter lengths. Every writer does it differently. The reason why I don't plan my chapter lengths is because they never come out the exact length every time. They always come out uneven long or short as it goes, but never the exact way I've planned them. I've tried to plan them out before but it doesn't work. I admire you for making it work for you. Not every writer can.

I can't say that I never plan chapters. My last series was deliberately 13 chapters for each book. Other than that, I don't have set numbers, but usually when I have an idea that starts to form into a plot, I'll write the first chapter and from there, I can usually guess withing +/- 5 chapters about how long it will be.

Justin wrote: "Does anyone decide how many chapters they want in their book and plan them out before they start writing?

I do this as I find it a good practice, it helps me determine what I want each chapter to..."

I sort of do that. For the most part, I plot my books out as though they're a season of TV. So, I'll know what my story is and what beats I'll need to hit, then I'll structure the chapters into their own 'episodes', each with a fairly clearly-defined beginning, middle, and end. The hope is that I'll be able to get my readers to 'binge' the book like they might a show on Netflix.

It seems to work out quite well. I've had a number of people tell me they've gone through my first book in just a few hours, and it's 370 pages in print (6x9).

Most of mine I do not plan out # of chapters but pretty much anyone who likes to outline will do that. Perfectly valid, but for some of us it's kind of meaningless.

That said, I do have one large work in progress that I'd like to do as Dan says, "plot...as though they're a season of TV."

For certain kinds of books that makes a lot of sense. For others, not so much.

YMMV

Thanks everyone. Yeah I just find it to be an easier process for me. I'm planning out chapters for my next book for sure because its my first series so I figure I can structure and anything I don't use I can always use later on.

Justin wrote: "Does anyone decide how many chapters they want in their book and plan them out before they start writing?

I do this as I find it a good practice, it helps me determine what I want each chapter to..."

No, I'm a pantster. I let the story follow its course and when it's done, it's done. Usually, though, my books run around thirty-one chapters. I wish they could be thirty or thirty-two. LOL

Lol Angela, every bit counts!

Dan, that's a great way to have a specific goal for each chapter! I kind of do this but not so detailed. I think of the overarching story and find the beginning of the journey and the final destination. Then I start planning some of the obstacles the characters will need to overcome (landmarks, if you will) to reach that destination. I add in subplots, and separate each happening into a chapter. I usually start with 10-12 big chapter ideas in my outline. When I start writing, I choose a scene I see in my mind most clearly & start with that, whether it's in chronological order or not--usually not. I usually end up needing to add transitions and extra scenes so that I finally end up with 16-20 chapters.

Does anyone else like throwing in short chapters after long ones just to hook the reader in. I find when I'm reading, if I finish a grueling/long chapter and am about to put the book down for the night, I find myself changing my mind and deciding to read one more chapter if it's 2 or 3 pages long.

What matters to me is the story arc of the chapter itself. If the chapter begins to feel like two chapters strung together, then it's time to break it off into another chapter. I also find that what needs to get done and said within the chapter scenario usually takes about 10-13 pages.

The duo of James S.A. Corey has a strict 3K word chapter restriction. I think this is usually my goal for a chapter, but if a lot is going on (like climactic scenes) I tend to go longer. I was actually relieved when I started reading Patrick Rothfuss, some of his scenes (and chapters) are only half a page long. Some are 10-20 pages. In both cases with Rothfuss you feel like you get something significant in the chapter no matter how long. I guess that's what really matters.