Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

All mormon's and J.W.'s that I meet insist they love Jesus --- many even assume it's the same Jesus of historic Christianity. At first they know little. Are they saved? Do they then learn more and become unsaved?
Must their belief be perfect? Or full? Or theologically over 51% correct?

Any thoughts. This concern is what caused me to passionately pursue Biblical truth.

When Jesus says "You must believe" --- how far must this belief go? Are Mormons close enough? Are Charismatics mostly close? Are liberals way too far out when they reduce Jesus to a nice idea?

Any thoughts?

Belief is not the same as perfect understanding. We all go wrong on some interpretations of biblical teachings. There are central truths, mere Christianity, that we must defend.

I have never figured out what gives JW or mormons salvation or how they want us to respond to their appeals. I have less exposure to Mormon theology than JW. I have read through the JW watchtower pamphlets, but it does not seem to have any appeal or call to respond. So what do they preach?

But with them as with anyone else, salvation is through Jesus Christ alone.

YES, I have never come across any two historical theologians that are in total agreement with each other. We are human after all.

When a Mormon /J.W. first says they love and depend on Jesus for salvation: Are they saved? Do they lose their salvation when they gain more cultic knowledge? (Some christians actually believe this).

I say: they were never saved. But to what degree?

Glad you're here Brit. This will be a tricky conversation.

Mark 13:22 - "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

Only the TRUE Jesus of the Bible offers TRUE salvation. Followers of FALSE christs are not saved.
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There is ONLY ONE WAY of salvation... the TRUE Jesus of the Bible!

John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
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FALSE christ = FALSE salvation

Matthew 24:4 - "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."

Rod, Brit - I'm not quite sure what gives JWs salvation, either, but Mormons appear a little more transparent to me. If they mind their Ps and Qs and adhere strictly to Latter Day Saint doctrine they can (eventually and with much time and money spent in a Mormon Temple) become little Jesus' with a certain (unclear) amount of divinity attached.

Hello Rod...great topic for discussion...have been chewing on this for a few days now.

The baseline for salvation would appear to be the thief alongside Jesus on an adjacent cross...one of the two thieves that were crucified that day with Jesus.

He expresses salvation quality faith...attested by no less a Person than Jesus Himself...yet this one thief is saved by grace alone...he has absolutely no opportunity going forward to come down off his cross and do some good works...although his testimony from the cross about the innocence of Jesus...and his new found faith... has influenced untold millions down through the centuries.

But it seems from the gospels that Jesus is drawing some definite lines between saving faith and hypocritical confessions of faith that miss the mark so badly as to fall outside of saving faith.

John chapters 4-15 are filled with dialogue between Jesus and the religious elite in Jerusalem that establish some definite lines in the mind of God...ending in the very powerful John 15:21-25 that reveal in what should be a very convicting message to the world that the Holy Spirit is very capable of differentiating what is and what is not saving faith...even when we have trouble discerning between good fruit and bad fruit.

I also think that Hebrews 11:1 and 11:6 have something important to say on this matter...in that it also appears that it is very important in the mind and heart of God to enable people to enter into a risky adventure of faith...as described in Hebrews 11 and throughout the entire Bible.

I do not think that any of the pseudo-Christian "religions" like Mormonism or JW's have even the slightest possibility for their adherents to ever experience a biblical-quality journey of faith where Jesus sits at the helm.

These are all based on self-sovereignty according to our good works...which if broken down...reveal deceptions and counterfeits that attempt to displace God's higher ways for our lives...with man-made, self-rulership instead...human beings still sitting atop the thrones of our lives.

This then should/might be the central issue that Spirit-born and Spirit-led Christians should be raising to create a demarcation between saving faith and non-saving, man-made religion.

I have more to say...but want to think about it some more. Also want to hear more opinions.

Thanks, Barton.

Good comments Barton. I always bring up the thief on the cross when chatting with Christian cults.
The thief had Great theology.

I ask Mormons if the Thief should have been a Mormon. The answers are hilarious and disturbing.
If the Thief made it to eternity at Jesus side: then so will I.

I say that this is a perfect example of God's election and the inner work of the Holy Spirit. Cults hate that.

No cult would let the thief into THEIR paradise.

I think we need to be careful in judging whether individual persons are saved or not. Only God can be the judge of that. However, it is our duty to evaluate and judge doctrines and that is where JW and Mormons fail.

Rod wrote: "I say that this is a perfect example of God's election and the inner work of the Holy Spirit. Cults hate that..."

My response: A perfect example indeed!

John 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe , and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, “ For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Observations...
* Jesus KNEW
* From the BEGINNING
* Who BELIEVED
* For this REASON Jesus said
* NO ONE can come
* UNLESS granted by the FATHER

1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

Yes Robert - in the beginning, God the father Grants election. He knows fully who will be saved for Christ's Kingdom. His foreknowledge is that He fore-chose.

Nobody comes unless He grants it. And He already did. This is what the angels and demons work for and against. Spiritually dead people don't get to make spiritual choices --// they are dead.

Yes Brit - we judge and discipline and possibly correct. (And we hope and Love) But only God can Condemn.

Election IS Jesus knowing from the beginning who will not believe. All those verses prove Calvinism. Fun eh?

Rod wrote: "Election IS Jesus knowing from the beginning who will not believe. All those verses prove Calvinism. Fun eh?"

My response: VERY ODD Calvinism. Jesus KNOWS who would believe, and because of THAT KNOWLEDGE He says that the Father grants them to come.

NOT Calvinism... just Bible!

Rod wrote: "Yes Robert - in the beginning, God the father Grants election. He knows fully who will be saved for Christ's Kingdom. His foreknowledge is that He fore-chose.

Nobody comes unless He grants it. And..."

My response: The Bible says GOD FOREKNOWS...
Rod says God FORE-CHOSE...

I am sticking with the Word of God... and staying away from the word of Rod!

Rod wrote: "Yes Brit - we judge and discipline and possibly correct. (And we hope and Love) But only God can Condemn."

Actually, God tells us that we are CONDEMNED ALREADY.

John 3:18-19

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already , because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Somehow the discussion has veered off course.

Rod...what do you think of the notion that God wants to actualize an Abraham-like adventure of faith to a greater or lesser degree in each of the lives of Spirit-born Christians...and that this is an element included in the cross and the resurrection...that Jesus suffered, died, and rose for as part of the free gift of salvation...obviously not an option open to the thief on the cross.

Not as a requirement or condition to earn salvation on our part...but as an unselfish desire out of the mind and heart of God to make a way for Christians to experience divine love through a God-composed life-script like we see in Abraham through Paul...and all of the positive characters of faith in between.

And is this notion an almost inarguable evidence for the divine origin of the Bible...and therefore part (but not a pre-condition)...an important part...of what false pseudo-Christian religions rob people from experiencing through a counterfeit religion?

Is this part of the disappointment that Jesus seems to be expressing in John 15:21-25...which I think argues for a mystery between the blend of God's sovereignty in election with man's free-will choice...which both come together in a way that only an incredibly ingenious God could and would pull-off?

When we throw in Paul versus the Judaizers in Galatians, 1 John, James, Jude, and Peter's epistles (can't take the time now to note each verse)...the interesting topic you raised deserves further discussion.

We are certainly supposed to discern where people are...and the writers of the New Testament do not seem reluctant to strongly voice their discernment.

I value your insights...Rod, Brit, Robert, and Robert.

Rod wrote: "All mormon's and J.W.'s that I meet insist they love Jesus --- many even assume it's the same Jesus of historic Christianity. At first they know little. Are they saved? Do they then learn more and ..."


I am rather an expert on specifically Mormonism and I can tell you that they would claim that Jesus Christ saved us from sin, death, and the power of the Devil. However this is not a full salvation rather a salvation so long as you fulfill other requirements, ie. Baptism for the dead, Baptism, sealing dead relatives to one another, being sealed for time and eternity in a temple, doing family history work, tithing, and the list goes on and on. Firstly Christ cannot be a partial Savior it takes away from the Archetype. Secondly Mormons self admittedly do not believe the atonement of Christ will stay sufficient.

“In the restoration of all things, these ancient practices which were given in the beginning—not the carnal law—and which had a bearing on the coming of Jesus Christ, will be restored. That sacrifice by blood should continue to be necessary forever, we need not suppose to be the case.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:59.

“The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fullness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 3:94.)

This isn't a Mormon Theologian with a PhD from Joe Blo University, this is one of the Mormon prophets I directly quoted. In other words Hebrews 7 is wrong according to them in Hebrews 7 and following it is written the the Old Law of atonement, under the Levitical and Aaronic priesthood is now and forever irrelevant. Namely because with the Melchizedek Priesthood of the new Covenant which supersedes the Aaronic and Levitical Priesthood of the Old Covenant, with Christ as the sacrificial lamb its one sacrifice for all infinitely covering a multitude of sins juxtaposed to the Levitical sacrifices which required lamb after lamb to be slaughtered which was ineffective and not possible for salvation. Hebrews 10:4. Comparing this with the aforementioned Mormon belief that Christs blood will only cover our sins until their interpretation of the Millennium when Christ will rule for 1000 years and the New Covenant will be abolished and animal sacrifice for our sins once again restored because Christs sacrifice is no longer sufficient. Rod I would say not only is this a load of bollocks regarding Mormonism but it is very dangerous to think that Christ is at best a partial Savior and secondly, at worst, a sacrificial lamb who's blood is not infinite therefor animals blood will be sacrificed instead, this is palpable blasphemy in my book. Sorry I am FAR less educated about J.W's and their beliefs but I wanted to share with you my thoughts about Mormonism and why I think those who truly believe it are in trouble, please let me know what you think. -D.K Alinizi

Derrick wrote: "Rod wrote: "All mormon's and J.W.'s that I meet insist they love Jesus --- many even assume it's the same Jesus of historic Christianity. At first they know little. Are they saved? Do they then lea..."

Interesting stuff Derrick. I live a couple of hours away from Palmyra, NY and have done many evangelism outreaches at the Hill Cummorah pageant. I have friends who started counter-cult ministries.

One of the authors of the book "Mormons Answered Verse by Verse" is a friend of mine.

Robert wrote: "Derrick wrote: "Rod wrote: "All mormon's and J.W.'s that I meet insist they love Jesus --- many even assume it's the same Jesus of historic Christianity. At first they know little. Are they saved? ..."

That's awesome I've been to almost every Mormon hub except for Palmyra thanks for sharing that with me.

Derrick wrote: "That's awesome I've been to almost every Mormon hub except for Palmyra thanks for sharing that with me..."

You're welcome. I spent 6 or 7 summers evangelizing at the Hill Cummorah pageant. The ministry I volunteered with published an 8 page newspaper with many articles exposing Mormon doctrines.

Roughly 10,000 come annually and about 40% are not Mormons. It is a huge outreach for them.

We also had a large table 100% published by the Mormon church to PROVE the things that we shared with people. Many Mormons have NO IDEA of the "odd" doctrines their church teaches... so we would send the sincere ones over to the table... where they would be shown from their own writings.

Fun stuff guys. I hope people learn from this conversation. This is some heavy theology.

Barton what do you mean "was not an option available to the thief on the cross".?

Indeed, we must believe on Jesus. But how MUCH?

Rod wrote: "Indeed, we must believe on Jesus. But how MUCH? ..."

I think the correct question Rod is NOT " How much? " but is rather " Which Jesus? "

The Jesus of the Bible is eternally God past, present, and future. The second member of the Trinity.

The Mormon Jesus got His physical body via physical intercourse between Elohim and Mary (one of Elohim's wives). The Mormon Jesus evolved and became a god via adherence to Mormon doctrines.

FACT - the Mormon Jesus is one of the FALSE christs that the True Jesus WARNED us about.

Matthew 24:24 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Jesus is very specific - yet I meet a lot of ignorant confused church goers. Are they not saved? Must they embrace the Trinity properly?

Rod wrote: "Jesus is very specific - yet I meet a lot of ignorant confused church goers. Are they not saved? Must they embrace the Trinity properly?"

God is the only One with the final judgment. I will not take His job.

I will say this though, a FALSE Jesus cannot offer TRUE salvation.

Otherwise, why would the TRUE Jesus WARN us about them?

I agree: no unbiblical Jesus is useful for salvation.

I also think the elect are guided into truth since birth.

Rod wrote: "I agree: no unbiblical Jesus is useful for salvation.

I also think the elect are guided into truth since birth."

My response: I agree that God orchestrates circumstances in our lives to guide us to Him.

My problem is with the end result of that which says He does not draw some people unto Himself... but Jesus told us that He DOES...

John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

I also find the notion that the Gospel is NOT powerful enough to save people unbiblical.

That is not in my area to decide. When Jesus says "I have sheep in other folds" I take that as meaning Jesus knows who are His, despite where they may be found. I just leave and trust He knows.

Christopher wrote: "That is not in my area to decide. When Jesus says "I have sheep in other folds" I take that as meaning Jesus knows who are His, despite where they may be found. I just leave and trust He knows."

Jesus also said... John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

No false christs can offer true salvation...

Rod wrote: "I agree: no unbiblical Jesus is useful for salvation.

I also think the elect are guided into truth since birth."

Robert, would you care too define for me exactly what you mean by elect with reasoning and scripture to back up your argument? I guess I don't quit get what you mean by "elect" if it's the same thing I'm thinking and if it isn't I'd like you to elaborate on your belief.

Derrick wrote: "Robert, would you care too define for me exactly what you mean by elect with reasoning and scripture to back up your argument? I guess I don't quit get what you mean by "elect" if it's the same thing I'm thinking and if it isn't I'd like you to elaborate on your belief. ..."

My response: To me, what I mean by "elect" is that I believe a plain reading of what God's Word says...

1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

God knows everything ...
...based on this foreknowledge ...
...God chooses His elect.
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Moses and Pharaoh...

My understanding of election is that the omniscient and True God of the Bible foreknew that Moses would follow Him and Pharaoh would harden his heart...

One other understanding (which I do not hold to) is that God FORCED Moses to be a good guy and Pharaoh to be a bad guy.

I hope that clarifies what I believe... again, it is well summarized by this...

1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

God's chosen children. A gift from the Father to the Son for Jesus Kingdom. The purpose behind all of creation.

Read all of the uses of elect in scripture. God kills some people, disciples others. Some are chosen to be disciples (Peter denied Christ 3x... yet never was he rejected. Judas was always to be the betrayer)

...to the elect lady and...

I believe that's 2nd Peter.

Robert wrote: "Derrick wrote: "Robert, would you care too define for me exactly what you mean by elect with reasoning and scripture to back up your argument? I guess I don't quit get what you mean by "elect" if i..."

I agree more with Roberts line of thinking of course the omniscient God foreknew who and who would not accept the gospel. To say that he for chose viz. the Calvinistic definition of Pre-Destination that God created some to be destined for salvation and others for eternal damnation why bother is my question? Rod, I will study the word elect, election, and elected in the Scriptures and keep an open mind I guess I feel that you are wrong though. Countless Scriptures say that everyone has a chance to hear truth by the Holy Spirit at some point in their lives, I'm of course paraphrasing. How they respond to the Holy Spirits invitation is the question of salvation to say that they were predestined as to whom they would accept is a fallacy in my book.

Matthew 22: 1-14

22 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven can be compared to a king who gave a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his slaves to summon those who had been invited to the banquet, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other slaves, saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Look! The feast I have prepared for you is ready. My oxen and fattened cattle have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.”’ 5 But they were indifferent and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his slaves, insolently mistreated them, and killed them. 7 The king was furious! He sent his soldiers, and they put those murderers to death and set their city on fire. 8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but the ones who had been invited were not worthy. 9 So go into the main streets and invite everyone you find to the wedding banquet.’ 10 And those slaves went out into the streets and gathered all they found, both bad and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 But when the king came in to see the wedding guests, he saw a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ But he had nothing to say. 13 Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Tie him up hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

This parable is talking about the wedding banquet ie. those who get to enter paradise through God's good graces with an invitation from the Holy Spirit as you see everyone was invited. The first group are the Jews, the second the Gentiles. However go to street corners it says and invite. In verse 14 it says many are invited but few are chosen. Doesn't this contradict the Calvinistic view of election Rod? They were invited to the banquet as we are to believe and free too reject the invitation accordingly, rather in the allegoric parable, or in real life through rejecting the Holy Spirits witness, and one will reap their rewards respectively. That last verse is very important it differentiates between invited and chosen. "For many are called, but few are chosen” you could be invited but not chosen, if you were chosen you were invited. So we can conclude according to this parable that all are witnessed too, but only some are "Chosen" what ever that means. Why would God invite people who were elected for eternal damnation? I don't think he would, there would be no point, therefor I think its safe to say that chosen here means those who God foreknew would accept the invitation to believe on his name.

To say that the Holy Spirit doesn't just witness but that people were chosen, by God to choose the Holy Spirit before they were sent to earth, is tantamount to saying that God sent an invitation in which he implored people to come and follow him, to everyone on earth but made sure some of them rejected it because _ you fill in the blank, I guess Rod I just don't feel this is a good cohesive argument for what you interpret as election.

-Derrick

Derrick wrote: "I agree more with Roberts line of thinking of course the omniscient God foreknew who and who would not accept the gospel..."

My response: What you said (quoted above) perfectly matches what Jesus said...
________________

John 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe , and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, “ For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Couldn't it be possible that "chosen" refers to the chosen people and has nothing to do with the individual decision?

Annette wrote: "Couldn't it be possible that "chosen" refers to the chosen people and has nothing to do with the individual decision?"

Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

My response: Do a word study on the Greek word translated "shall call upon" it is completely a volitional word... it is definitely an individual "decision" (or action).

And How died a spiritually dead person call on the Lord?

Whosoever? Yes, whosoever God chooses to give a portion of faith too.

God kills many many people in scripture: must assume they didn't live a long free life to be a whosoever?
Don't put the cart before the horse- God knows exactly who His whosoever is. Earthly Jesus and angels do not (necessarily?)

Good quest Annette: elect seems rather specific and refers to Saints. At no time is Israel elect for salvation. And Gentiles is too large and generic.

Elect is shown from Genesis to Revelation. From Lot to the 144,000 witnesses. Enoch and Abraham too of course. Noah also of course.

Hi Rod...wow...this post really took off. What I ment about the thief was that he was pinned to his cross and was not coming down...therefore his salvation is a good baseline for salvation by grace through faith alone...without works...because his option for works is removed.

"The baseline for salvation would appear to be the thief alongside Jesus on an adjacent cross...one of the two thieves that were crucified that day with Jesus.

He expresses salvation quality faith...attested by no less a Person than Jesus Himself...yet this one thief is saved by grace alone...he has absolutely no opportunity going forward to come down off his cross and do some good works...although his testimony from the cross about the innocence of Jesus...and his new found faith... has influenced untold millions down through the centuries."

Don't have time now but there are three verses in Isaiah around chapters 45-60 where God says He is timeless...outside of time..."knows the beginning from the end"...I read somewhere that that is how He can answer millions of prayers everyday...He has unlimited time to work on them.

I think the same concept can be applied to this issue of election and foreknowledge...in the dimension of time we have free-will choice...God is not in time.

The blend of the two seemingly incompatible realities is a supernatural divine creation...He probably invented time for this very reason...to spread out human experience so that choices can be made while He guides everything...but I think it is best described now as a mystery.

As I think about my salvation 47 years ago...I would say that at precisely the time I was making my positive decision for Christ God was at that moment also giving me the faith I needed to close the deal...but that is just me...I think I read in a previous post by Robert D. he had scripture for this concept that even our faith is a gift from God.

Anyway...good thread.

Rod wrote: "And How died a spiritually dead person call on the Lord?.."

My response: The GOSPEL. So, you believe that the Gospel is NOT POWERFUL enough to bring the DEAD to LIFE?

You believe that the Gospel is only powerful enough to bring the SLIGHTLY ALIVE to FULLY ALIVE????
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Rod wrote: "Whosoever? Yes, whosoever God chooses to give a portion of faith too."

My response: I agree...

Romans 12:3 - "...according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

You're almost a Calvinist Robert. So close. God is even specifically handing out faith TO the elect.

Barton the 2 sentences spoken by the thief on the cross are a work of theology and ministry that I gave cherished for decades. Does that count?
Everything I know about salvation and theology get filtered through the thiefs short opus. Holy Spirit gets the credit of course.

When God applies the Gospel of Christ it is 100% effective and works everytime.

Why do some think it fails 90%? My God doesn't fail when adopting His children.

Rod wrote: "You're almost a Calvinist Robert. So close. God is even specifically handing out faith TO the elect..."

Uh, I will gladly agree with the Bible. When Calvinists are in line with the Word... I agree with them... When Arminianists are in line with the Word... I agree with them...

To me, it is all about what the Bible actually says... NOT what I WANT it to say!

Rod wrote: "When God applies the Gospel of Christ it is 100% effective and works everytime.

Why do some think it fails 90%? My God doesn't fail when adopting His children."

My response: Absolutely! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is 100% effective... for the entire world... the Blood of Jesus NEVER FAILS!

1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

There is NO DEFECT in the Sacrifice... the problem is SOME WILL and SOME WON'T call upon the Lord.

Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Rod, if a bank opens its doors and says whoever wants $10,000 come in a get it.

Did the bank FAIL if you walk by and REJECT the offer?

Dead people can't come into a spiritual bank and get money.

Rod wrote: "Dead people can't come into a spiritual bank and get money."

The TRUE Gospel of Jesus Christ can bring the DEAD TO LIFE!

Apparently you believe the Gospel is TOO IMPOTENT to do so!

:-(
',
',
',

Rod wrote: "You're almost a Calvinist Robert. So close. God is even specifically handing out faith TO the elect.

Barton the 2 sentences spoken by the thief on the cross are a work of theology and ministry th..."

How it Robert almost a Calvinist Rod? From what I am understanding your views on Predestination as well as the Elect are far more aligned with Calvinism than Roberts.