Support for Indie Authors discussion

Do you come up with a plot first or characters?
I've tried both and find they both have advantages but I love the writing I produce far more when I'm working off of detailed character outlines instead of detailed plot outlines.
Thoughts?

I come up with the bones of a plot first, but once I get rolling it's all about the characters. Plot is very much secondary to me both as a reader and a writer.

Chris wrote: "I come up with the bones of a plot first, but once I get rolling it's all about the characters. Plot is very much secondary to me both as a reader and a writer."

I agree, I'd much rather read about an interesting character getting a cup of coffee than read a well thought out plot using shallow characters as nothing more than instruments to move it forward.

I don't really consciously come up with either first. Sometimes a character will pop into my head, sometimes a plot will, and I'll explore either. However, since characters are the most important thing there is in fiction (from where I sit, anyway), I'll eventually focus solely on characterization for quite some time, whether I start with plot or not.

Learning the ins and outs of any and every character and putting that knowledge to good use is vitally important to making a plot resonate, after all. If you don't have characters, you don't really have a plot.

Dan wrote: "I don't really consciously come up with either first. Sometimes a character will pop into my head, sometimes a plot will, and I'll explore either. However, since characters are the most important t..."

So what do you do to accomplish this? Does it happen on its own or do you actively work on a character sheet

For me I come up with an idea for a plot, mainly the starting point and ending point of the entire story. While thinking through this plot characters naturally start to develop. As I write I focus on character development and let it flow naturally as I move through the plot. In my first book I actually have a character that as I was writing part of his story I ended up changing the entire direction his character was going because he started to transform in to someone new. You need a plot, even if it's just having a cup of coffee, in order to make a story for your characters but I think in the end it's the characters that make the journey worth reading.

T. wrote: "For me I come up with an idea for a plot, mainly the starting point and ending point of the entire story. While thinking through this plot characters naturally start to develop. As I write I focus ..."

Definitely, definitely.

I'd say it's simultaneous. If I 'see' something taking place there is always the character or a character there; something is happening to someone.

Either one! And sometimes I'll combine a separate plot idea and character idea and see what happens...

R.K. wrote: "Do you come up with a plot first or characters?
I've tried both and find they both have advantages but I love the writing I produce far more when I'm working off of detailed character outlines instead of detailed plot outlines.
Thoughts?"

What I usually come up with first is... setting.

As far as plot and character, it's kind of a chicken or the egg question. They both seem to happen at the same time.

It might go a little something a-like this:

I see a bowling alley.

I want to write a story about a hip dude who hangs out in a bowling alley often. Maybe he doesn't really ever bowl, but he's often in there.

Maybe some thugs confuse my dude with some other guy who happens to have the same name and the thugs destroy some of my dude's property.

This guy needs some friends, so I come up with some characters for him to hang out with at the bowling alley. He spends a great deal of time talking about this item that was destroyed by the thugs.

Eventually, my guy is going to confront the guy with the same name and demand that he replace the item. Even though this new character seems wealthy enough, I will make him self-important and smug. He won't help my main character as he feels the main character is a loser.

And so it goes until I realize I'm ripping off The Big Lebowski and I scrap it for some other idea.

My characters come first. I have an idea a plot--how to get from A to B to C--but it's my characters that mostly drive the story. A lot of times they come into my head almost fully fleshed out; other times, I have to think about them a bit. But it's definitely the characters for me.

Dwayne wrote: "R.K. wrote: "Do you come up with a plot first or characters?
I've tried both and find they both have advantages but I love the writing I produce far more when I'm working off of detailed character ..."

I'm glad you said it at the end lol I had a feeling you were writing the story of the Dude on purpose but I couldnt be too sure online

R.K. wrote: "Do you come up with a plot first or characters?
I've tried both and find they both have advantages but I love the writing I produce far more when I'm working off of detailed character outlines inst..."

This is probably no surprise, since I'm a character-over-plot guy, but I almost always come up with a character first. On the occasion I think up a plot before the character(s), I have a harder time actually writing the story. If I have a character I know and have fleshed out a little already, I have an easier time thinking up stories revolving around them.

I started with my two MC's and the conflict between them, and then established the plot from the playing out of their conflict.

I think of a plot just enough for me to think I can make a story out of it and then I dive right into making the characters. For me, having interesting characters is my top priority and it is my absolute favorite thing to do. I love to think about the fact that I created them and how they choose to pop in and out of my head. Just recently, I was writing my story when all of a sudden this character came out of nowhere and decided she wanted to be part of the book. In my stories, I like to think the characters make up more of the story than the plot does.

for me it's worldbuilding first. Then the world suggests characters, for example a recently-colonised planet will produce strong, resourceful men and women, a university town will have some deep tinkers who may be slow to react and so on. Then I see how they interact and at once I have a plot.

For me, it is the idea of what and where something is going to happen. From there I'll build my characters and the plot. I need to know what, where, who, when and then how, usually in that order.

An idea I'm working on: a murder in a bakery tied to a biker bar where the sign is only partially lit in northern Arizona. I'm still working on the who as it may be a second book for some characters I like.

There is no real plot or characters yet, just an idea of an event, but I'm working on logistics, and building the villain now that I have where and what. I'll come up with a McGuffin for the leads to track down or a good reason for the murder which will drive the plot. I'll build characters to suit what they are to do based on why the murder happened.

If that all made sense, let me know....my brain is currently jumping from one idea to another (ie, the female dragon shifter where the character came to me first and now I have to put her into the setting with a decent plot, but that isn't my normal way of doing a book)

I've only written one published novel, but I remember it coming to me first as more like a cause. Meaning, I knew why I wanted to write my book and what the overall mission was I wanted to be saying about love. My two lead characters then followed, immediately fashioning in my head, to the point of hijacking my every thought. A plot line then followed, which developed more and more as I pursued research on my historical topic.

So for me it's like a Why/Who/What.

I've never thought of it before, but I realize now that my plot always revolves around my characters or my main character. It’s everything he/she does, thinks, feels that drives the plot.

For the pieces that I've published, it seems to split about 50/50 as to which suggests itself first: the plot, or the primary character(s). If it is the plot that comes to me in the first instance, I spend a considerable time working on character notes before I start writing.

I tend to start with an intensely felt scene and work my way backwards and forwards from there with both plot and character.

On the plot side: How did this scene come about? What happens next? Is this scene important to a larger story?

On the character side: what do I know about this character based on this one scene? What's her backstory and does it account for her behavior here? What would she logically do next?

I don't do character sheets ticking off preset categories. Loathe them.

Margaret wrote: "I tend to start with an intensely felt scene and work my way backwards and forwards from there with both plot and character.

On the plot side: How did this scene come about? What happens next? Is..."

Why do you loathe them?

R.K. wrote: "Why do you loathe them? "

I can't speak for Margaret and maybe I'm a little ignorant of how they really work, but I'm not a fan of them myself. The ones I've seen resemble character sheets from Dungeons & Dragons. That's okay, I suppose, but a character in my stories needs to be a bit more than just "he has blue eyes" or "he's really good at climbing things". It would be time consuming to put everything that truly makes a character shine or makes them interesting into a character sheet. Also, as I work a story, the character gains new dimensions and more depth, pretty soon growing out of whatever I had originally thought they would be. So, whatever I put on the character sheet before the rough draft would be null and void, therefore a waste of time.

If others gain something from character sheets and find them useful, great. There's no one way to do this thing. I just find them too much of a bother.

I generally either begin with an idea (how about a trans-dimensional alien vampire that doesn't eat your blood, but rather consumes your soul?) which then suggests an opening scene ... or I just have a scene pop into my head which I then have to work out what the rest of the plot is about. Both of which naturally spawn characters.

I'm definitely plot/idea/world building over characters. I mean, sure, flat characters won't work in a story like that either (looking at you Asimov, baby) but looking back at what I've read in the past it's almost always the plots/ideas I remember, not the specific characters. Vonnegut, Philip K. Dick, Alastair Reynolds, Iain Banks, Greg Bear, Joe Haldeman ... all of them I remember plot/idea, not so much characters.

The only time I think character is more important than plot/idea is in some very formulaic writing like police procedurals, murder mysteries, courtroom fiction ... basically where the author writes a lot of stories with the same main character, same kind of plot structure, etc. For example John Mortimer's Rumpole series, or Georges Simenon's Maigret books, or indeed Agatha Christie's works, or P. G. Wodehouse. These are all works of character fiction focusing more on the MC's personality, methods and quirks than on plot.

Dwayne wrote: "R.K. wrote: "Why do you loathe them? "

I can't speak for Margaret and maybe I'm a little ignorant of how they really work, but I'm not a fan of them myself. The ones I've seen resemble character s..."

Agreed. Character sheets to me are way more work than they're worth for the style of writing I do. They're worse than outlines. For starters I don't solidly know who my characters are until maybe 2/3rds of the way through some books. Writing down all their specs beforehand would be a total waste of time because as the writing progresses they would evolve into something completely different from what I imagined at the beginning. And what would be the point of taking the time to document it all when I'm nearly done the book?

Like outlines, they may work for some people, but not for me. I like my characters to surprise me as I write. I like to get them into situations where they let me know who they are rather than me forcing them into some preconceived sketch. And like outlines when I've used them, I'd likely find myself changing the character sheets to fit what I've written more then I would write the character to fit the sheet.

Yeah, I like to "intuit" my characters too. I enjoy learning about them as I write. Just personally I think I'd feel limited by a character sheet. I will keep a description as to what they look like though, especially for minutiae, in case I contradict some detail. Wouldn't want someone's eyes changing color halfway through!

Chris wrote: "Yeah, I like to "intuit" my characters too. I enjoy learning about them as I write. Just personally I think I'd feel limited by a character sheet. I will keep a description as to what they look lik..."

Interesting, sounds like the reason some people dislike character sheets are similar to why others dislike detailed plot outlines

I can't seem to complete a character sheet. I find that most of my characters develop as I write the story. I don't do anything really detailed until I start to write. My "outline" contains the main plot points and scenes I have to include, although the actual scenes may change some as I write. I have a general idea about my characters and how they will develop and interact. My main character is pretty well developed before I put my hand on a keyboard due to my daydreaming or imagining the book prior to putting it into words. Now if I could actually write what I 'see' when I imagine a scene,..lol.

It's about fifty/fifty. No. Who am I trying to kid. I think it's going to be all about the plot then the characters take over. And quite often shove the story in a completely different direction....

I don't outline what the characters will look like. It comes as I write. I keep a sheet with the details as they pop, to insure there is no disparity and that's it.

I once made a character a washed blonde. In the end I had to change it all because it feels like the character disapproved of my choice. Yeah sound stupid I know but that's how it is. So outlining before hand? Never has worked for me.

Plus ... I never know who my characters are going to meet. I'll be writing a scene with two characters moving from point A to point B and when they arrive I suddenly realize there would be half a dozen people at the destination who I've not created or thought about; and one or two of them are going to have to interact with my MCs ... Time to invent new characters. No way I could anticipate all that from the start.

Dwayne wrote: "R.K. wrote: "Why do you loathe them? "

I can't speak for Margaret and maybe I'm a little ignorant of how they really work, but I'm not a fan of them myself. The ones I've seen resemble character s..."

For what it's worth, a character that has "blue eyes" and is "really good at climbing things" sounds like a great start at an interesting character to me. I don't know why--it's just a specific detail that's kind of unexpected.

I have found that doing a character sheet of mine does ring a little more hollow--it's almost like you second guess yourself, talk yourself out of it, deflate the usefulness of the exercise before it can even yield fruit.

I've come to find that a good formula for producing writing that pleases me involves tricking myself, disguising myself, games, obfuscation, difficult prompts, etc. It's like I need to be misdirected from self-criticism; little exercises like that can take you out of your own head, buying you enough time to get momentum.

Depends on the book. My two contemporary romances were pantsed. I had a basic idea of both the plot and the characters, but they developed as I wrote. I didn't do either an outline or character sheets for one. For the one I'm polishing now, I did an outline but no character sheets. Both of these were fairly straightforward plots and character development just happened as part of the story. Contemporary settings are pretty easy because we know our own world and I don't have to think through all the details as much as my historicals.

Historical fiction requires much more attention to detail because you can't just pull the details off so easily. Mine is a trilogy and is much more complicated. I have mega detailed character sheets. It's a Civil War-era piece and I have the exact weapons carried by each character because some reader will know if I make a mistake. I have recreated the muster sheet of an entire company of cavalry including type of horse, tack, and horses name. It is a small town and there are many family relationships so I have family trees for not only my main characters but most of the town, the soldiers, slave families...

I'm working on my plot outline in Aeon Timeline (I write in Scrivener and these two programs work together). I have multiple plot timelines. One is for the real events, each of the three main characters has their own character arc timelines, and then I have timelines for the major themes.

Something with this level of complication I just can't let develop. There is far too much risk of getting something wrong and I would waste a ton of time on tangents. I need the focus. With that said I developed these characters and the story in my head for a year before I ever committed anything to paper (or computer as the case may be).

So what I'm saying, I guess, is it is what the writer is comfortable with and what the story requires since I've done it both ways.

I usually plan out a blueprint of the plot then the characters however for my next book I'm currently working on I'm doing the characters first. Seeing at it's going to be a series I feel it's best to get a strong work on the characters and really get their motives and characteristics written and planned out. I have an idea for the plot but I also feel that since the characters are intricate to the series that the plot will revolve around their choices and their fate. So the solid plot is in my mind but I think the rest will unravel as I start writing it.

I'd say characters come first because I'm all about characters, but they are usually born with the plot attached, like Siamese twins...

Hola Justin,

Estoy totalmente de acuerdo con Pamela. Y generar los personajes en primer lugar con la trama de cada uno de ellos, es una buena idea. He visto recientemente el blog de una escritora que nos enseña como hacer pequeños esquemas, tal vez si haces uno, te resulte algo más sencillo el proceso. Es una idea que te doy. Un saludo

I've done both. I think the worlds are more interesting when I plot/worldbuild first.
But the characters are much better and the inter-personal lives are better when I create characters first.
I usually do worlds because I've had several times where I've created characters that were great, but didn't fit into my world/story. :-)

A skeletal plot for it to be driven by my characters. I believe that in the end, your characters are what sticks to the ribs of readers long after the last page has been turned.

I believe character-driven writing is the best; but ideas come to you by various avenues: sometimes plot, sometimes, character, sometimes theme.

I think having a theme makes everything easier. Plots and characters are notorious for going where they want to go. But when you establish your theme it becomes easier to establish metaphor, allegory, and exactly what your character will do.

For instance: If you have two characters with blue eyes and no theme, you will be lost trying to think of a unique description of their eyes. If, for simplicity sake, your theme dictates one character represents nature and the other non-nature, then the natural character will have sky/sea/robin's eggs, etc. blue eyes; while the other will have steel, gun metal, cobalt, etc blue eyes.

I find pinning down and limiting your metaphors actually allows you freer range, and more creative options. The theme also limits where the plot can go and what the characters can do; again making the choices easier.

If the plot is well thought enough, the characters will end up developing themselves. It does help to draw out a character and set up their identity when you have a story in mind.

Graeme wrote: "I started with my two MC's and the conflict between them, and then established the plot from the playing out of their conflict."

I like this.

Ariel wrote: "If the plot is well thought enough, the characters will end up developing themselves. It does help to draw out a character and set up their identity when you have a story in mind."

Ariel- I agree with you. If the plot is thought out (including the sub-plots essentially meaning the plot each character goes through, then the character will develop within that. I think plot is absolutely most important.

For me, I'm still editing a book I pantsed because it's so chaotic it was total junk.

I like to outline so I don't spend 20 passes on editing. I can't come up with a clean pantsed novel for the life of me.

Dan wrote: "I don't really consciously come up with either first. Sometimes a character will pop into my head, sometimes a plot will, and I'll explore either. However, since characters are the most important t..."

Well put Dan, like I wrote it myself.

I suppose plot. Everything I've written began with an idea. Usually I will come up with the bare bones of a plot, or even just a starting point. Then I will add some characters, develop the plot a little more, add some more characters. My characters grow with the story, and my story grows as my characters further it. One change prompts another.

The character many times allows the writer to weave a plot ... there are times too that the plot dictates the character that is best suited...its just what works best for the writer in that situation. It's a case of: what is first the chicken or the egg.

R.K. wrote: "So what do you do to accomplish this? Does it happen on its own or do you actively work on a character sheet"

Sorry for the incredibly delayed response to this, R.K.! I got wrapped up in finishing a big project, leaving most things that weren't it to fall by the wayside.

Anyway, it's a little bit of both. Depending on how realized a character starts out (sometimes I'll just know everything I need about them at the start) I might never have a character sheet or anything like that. However, for those that require more planning, usually repeat/focal characters, I'll start thinking of the type of person said character is and associate a bunch of real world things with them - music, books, movies, etc. - that I think would fit their personality.

From there (again, depending on the character's importance), I'll maybe fill out questionnaires in character or something like that, then I'll use those things to learn what doesn't come to me naturally, if that makes sense.

Nat wrote: "I like to outline so I don't spend 20 passes on editing..."

OTOH, The only book I ever fully outlined has been in edits now for 22 years.

20 passes? Pfft!

I usually come up with a character who sort of tells me what they are going to be doing. The plot comes once I figure out who my character is. Yes, I do have a general idea of the plot or where the story will go, but nothing becomes final until I can solidify the hero/heroine.
Outlining or putting down the chapter scenes is a must. If I don't, I end up wandering all over the place and write thousands of words which go nowhere.
Micah....there comes a time when you have to either scrap it or publish. After 22 years...let that poor baby out!...lol

Usually plot. I always vision the story with 'faceless' characters at first. As I write stories up to around 350-400 pages, I believe the plot matters quite a bit. Then I create the characters.