Support for Indie Authors discussion

Do you prefer the act of creating (writing the first book, coming up with the characters & scenario) or the act of fleshing it out and expanding upon it (in sequels)? Which do you find more enjoyable? Difficult?

I enjoy the original. I find the sequels more challenging. Sure, the characters and basic world-building have been laid out, so that part's easier, but I find it difficult to make a sequel feel as "relevant" as the first. I have several sequel drafts that I've abandoned for this and other reasons.

Bonus question: for those of you who write long series', what strategy do you use to minimize diminishing returns and keep on bringing new fans into the fold?

I plot the story, then chop it into pieces, with each piece becoming a book. This gives me an idea of how many books it will take to deliver the full enchilada, and what to cover in each. Focus accelerates completion.

I'm not sure what you mean "long"... long in word count, or long in book count? A 3-book series might be longer, word-wise, than a competing 10-book series.

I'm thinking book count in this instance.

I start with a basic idea then expand. My first book was meant to be a standalone now there are two and I'm working on the 3rd.

I think it is best to design your series up front, and understand how each book will end.

As the series progresses, raise the stakes and save the best until last, so each book is delivering more drama than the one before.

Mind you, I find I'm doing a fair amount if re-design for each book in my series as I get to it. About 70% to 80% of the original design is surviving. And key turning points have remained stable.

For the first three books in my series, I was intensely focused on each individual book. The first book was solely about introducing the important characters and telling an interesting origin story for my heroine. The second book expanded on the world I established in the first book and put a bow on my heroine's origin. The third book wound up turning the entire series on its head, and the ramifications will be felt well into books 4, 5, 6... maybe even further.

For me, the most important thing is to make sure each entry is its own entity. That's not to say there aren't plot points that span from one book to the next, but I try to make sure each book contains a main standalone plot; that way, if I get readers who come in around book 3 or 4, they can still enjoy the characters and the story without having to worry about playing catch-up.

Interesting thread because I was about to ask a question connected with a series of books and it is similar to the one asked by Chris, i.e. Bonus question: for those of you who write long series, what strategy do you use to minimize diminishing returns and keep on bringing new fans into the fold?

My question is: what percentage are series writers experiencing for readers continuing through to a second and then a third book?

Here is a pie graph that shows proportions of royalties of the books in my series. I've marked each # book on the corresponding color. My book #2 is actually the best selling as I run many free promotions on book #1. The little dark blue sliver at the top of the pie graph is the prequel novella that I released in April. It's 1/2 the length of the other books, only gets 35% royalty rate, and is at a lower price.

Anna Faversham wrote: "My question is: what percentage are series writers experiencing for readers continuing through to a second and then a third book?"

The majority of readers who gave one of the books in my series a try wound up reading all the others. I've found that if I hook them with one, they're more than willing to keep coming back for the next part of the ride.

I enjoyed writing the first book the most as I was able to set up things in that for later novels in the series, which will have people thinking back to book 1 and going 'omg yeah that's why...' I love plotting and planning like that. I'm finding book 2 a lot harder to write though as there's an expectation from the existing fanbase so the pressure is more than the first book in a series.

Interesting and useful answers, thank you.

I agree

I write amateur sleuth mysteries, which lend themselves well to a series, except for one thing: how many dead bodies can a person who is not employed in a professional investigative occupation (i.e., police officer, lawyer, medical examiner) stumble across in a normal lifetime? Once is plausible. Twice? Okay, maybe.

I'm in the final touch-up of book two in my series and have the scene structure of book three banged out, but I'm feeling the strain. I set each story in a different country, so it's not quite as illogical as Miss Marple in some little British village with an apparent murder rate of Baltimore. Nonetheless, at least with respect to the Amateur Sleuth sub-genre, I agree with Chris. The original in a series is somewhat easier to write.

Chris wrote: "Do you prefer the act of creating (writing the first book, coming up with the characters & scenario) or the act of fleshing it out and expanding upon it (in sequels)? Which do you find more enjoyab..."

I do both at the same time, but I enjoy coming up with the scenarios more than the characters. When I start a series, I figure out the whole thing up to what the end of the series will be. Granted I've only done one so far, but when I do more that's how it will be. Without that ending in mind, I don't think I could write a series.

At the beginning of the series, with having an end in mind, I can space character growth/plot advancement/new developments across whatever chapters, giving it a good pace. That way the relevancy is there all throughout.

Chris - two books for you to check out for series planning.

First, Rachel Aaron's From 2,000 to 10,000. I recommend her because she has independently published some very successful series and is an extremely methodical writer. She takes you from the original notes to the final edit and all of her methods can be applied to a single book or a string of books.

Second, The Snowflake Method. I promise I have no affiliation with this book or its author, I'm just really liking what this method offers. It suggests that you alternate your plans between plot and character, going a level deeper each time. It's a method I am really excited to use for my next novel.

Please let us know when you finish book one!

I am writing book two of a three book series. One thing that I keep butting up against is that in the book that I am writing now, I find myself thinking that I should have mentioned in book one something about what is transpiring in book two. Makes me feel like I should have written all three before releasing any of them.

Personally, I rarely commit to earnest writing on something until I have a pretty solid idea on where it has to end up. I find that to be crucial when writing a series. It's important to have a good bit of flexibility, yes, but main plot points and long term character plans are vital to series creation, in my opinion. Not just for narrative cohesion, but for keeping our own passion stoked as writers.

This is actually a frequent topic of discussion between my brother and I. We're both serial fiction nuts, but we're more so fans of a well-planned/well-executed story. We'll drop TV shows we've kept up with for years without looking back, because it becomes clear that the writers had no real, solid plan and were running out of ideas on how to make it seem like they did.

Frankly, the concept of pulling the trigger on a series without having a sound plan is completely foreign to me (though, clearly, your mileage may vary). Before I committed to writing the series I'm in the thick of at the moment, I made a timeline of the main character's life, filling in one or two events each year of his existence from birth to death. Now, not all of that stuff's going to be written in the books, but in doing that, I essentially made myself quite the sandbox to play around in. I could feasibly write stories in that universe for 15, 20 years, and they'd all fit together like a puzzle, just from knowing this one character's live backward and forward. That's the level of fire I look for in a series as a consumer, and it's what I've always striven for as a writer.

I love the act of creating characters, universes and the like just as much as I love playing with them after I have. To me, there's little difference between the two.

Yes, definitely had the whole series planned out for all three books, but sometimes little things come up in the details that could have used a brief mention in the earlier book.

I understand where you are coming from, M. Ray. I'm finding also that there are details which could have been mentioned in book one, but I add it as part of the backstory which is mentioned in passing. If you are using the same main character, use it to add to the information about him and what he is doing. I like Dan's idea of making a timeline and then writing the books using that time line, focusing on specific events.
The trilogy I'm working on involves three different people, so I did need to write them all to make sure that the time they are together matches in each book but is given from each woman's point of view.

I've never really written a full fledged series but my next book is going to be. I plan on throwing everything into the first book and then maybe after I'm done I'll map out and plan the second book just like I did the first. I feel if I go all in on each book I may burn myself out or the series may not turn out as good as I want it to.

I'm just writing the second book of what may turn out to be two or three. But I had no idea when I wrote book one that there would be follow ups. Book two has arrived because readers have loved one enough to actually ask for two. And because the characters have started shouting at me again

I write each of my books in the series as a standalone but at the same time orchestrating there will be more without doing a cliffhanger. I'm working on the second book in the series, and have all of them in the series planned out. The second will be more involved in than the first. I'm thinking of doing a three book series instead of a four book series. I always plot the story and scenes as well as the characters out. The first one in the series I wasn't planning on making a series. It was supposed to be a single book but instead it will be a series.

J.N. wrote: "I plot the story, then chop it into pieces, with each piece becoming a book."

Do you find yourself trying to force your characters to go in a direction that might not make sense for where they are at that point because you need them to end up in the final scene you planned at the beginning?

I've sometimes found myself in the position where I envisioned the ending clearly, but then realized that there was no way to get there.

I usually start with an idea for a single story and things just get out of hand. Only advice is to make sure you have a clear idea of how it is going to end before you start, even if the actual ending turns out to be completely different.

Robert wrote: "J.N. wrote: "I plot the story, then chop it into pieces, with each piece becoming a book."

Do you find yourself trying to force your characters to go in a direction that might not make sense for w..."

I use Visio to plot things out. As things evolve and change, its easy to update the diagram to insert/remove/edit blocks or reconnect them to different source and end points.

Same tool works great for mapping family trees so you can keep all the family loons in order.

Chris wrote: "Do you prefer the act of creating (writing the first book, coming up with the characters & scenario) or the act of fleshing it out and expanding upon it (in sequels)? Which do you find more enjoyab..."

Oo, I like this one. Okay, so far I'm mostly a series writer and the reason is because at least from my own research, I've found reader loyalty tends to stay strong with a series. The reason being because they get attached to the characters and want to follow their stories past their initial meeting which is usually what the first book is basically for: Introductions and plot layouts.
For books following I tend to ask myself, okay, what character or characters would I (as a reader) want to know about? We all have our favorites that often aren't the MCs that we want to know more about (at least I do).
This is how I personally handle books in any series. Shifting from one POV to another character or set of characters.
I hope this helps!

J.N. wrote: "I use Visio to plot things out. As things evolve and change, its easy to update the diagram to insert/remove/edit blocks or reconnect them to different source and end points

Sounds like you're far more organized than I am! My "outline" is sometimes as terse as "they get the thing and then go south" and that'll get me through 15 chapters. I envy those who can see the ending from the prologue, but I never can.

Chris wrote: "Do you prefer the act of creating (writing the first book, coming up with the characters & scenario) or the act of fleshing it out and expanding upon it (in sequels)? Which do you find more enjoyab..."

Sequels are tricky. Especially if you have a full multi book story planned and the second book of x number of books in the series isn't well received.

Diminishing returns is inevitable in the fast paced entertainment world we live in. My suggestion is to write what you deem entertaining, and to develop your story regardless of how it is received. Rowling had the end in mind despite the fact no one even knew her name. Keep the end goal in mind, thread and weave your story together, and then let the world enjoy it.

Robert wrote: "J.N. wrote: "I use Visio to plot things out. As things evolve and change, its easy to update the diagram to insert/remove/edit blocks or reconnect them to different source and end points

Sounds li..."
Writing is strange! Sometimes I can see the whole story from start to finish, and other times the plot and characters evolve with me. Either way, it ends up a finished story, so how you get there might be irrelevant.

Blaise wrote: "Chris wrote: "Do you prefer the act of creating (writing the first book, coming up with the characters & scenario) or the act of fleshing it out and expanding upon it (in sequels)? Which do you fin..."

You pose a good point about introducing characters and plots in the first book. I must ask: how many characters is too many characters? And how do you set them apart? By chapters or by page breaks? Just started writing a series and having difficulty on these details.

I enjoy both the act of creating and expanding.

I think it boils down to how invested I am in my characters. The characters in my first novel have a life of their own. I never know what they're going to do even if I plotted out the next five books. I pour a lot of myself or my friends into these characters.

Sometimes I can clearly picture a novel from beginning to end. It just doesn't always get to the end how I pictured it would.

Justin wrote: "I've never really written a full fledged series but my next book is going to be. I plan on throwing everything into the first book and then maybe after I'm done I'll map out and plan the second boo..."

I like your idea of throwing everything into your first. Somebody once told me, "Write and hold nothing back." I think the reader appreciates a full story.

Kristofor wrote: "Blaise wrote: "Chris wrote: "Do you prefer the act of creating (writing the first book, coming up with the characters & scenario) or the act of fleshing it out and expanding upon it (in sequels)? W..."

Depends on how many characters. If I tend to have more than three that have thoughts/actions I want to explain, I break it out by chapter. If their interactions are mainly with the main character instead of behind the scenes, I keep everything from the third person point of view and introduce the characters slowly.

Nothing irks a reader more than too many characters introduced in the first five pages.

Justin wrote: "I've never really written a full fledged series but my next book is going to be. I plan on throwing everything into the first book and then maybe after I'm done I'll map out and plan the second boo..."

I like your idea of throwing everything into your first. Somebody once told me, "Write and hold nothing back." I think the reader appreciates a full story.

This is how I've done it, and I'm starting the second book in the series now, in the outlining stage. I think doing it that way, holding nothing back, essentially left me a giant collection of ideas and directions to work for this second book. I think it's a great idea if your creative works that way.

I have a four-book series. The first was written as a stand-alone with a wink at a new threat at the end. Books two through four act as a trilogy and build off each other to raise the stakes. This way readers can have a full story without the need to buy more books, but if they like my writing, the rest of the story requires the sequel books.

I have two series I am working on. Both are set up so that each books is a complete story. The sequels further develop the characters, but you could read book three and fully enjoy it without having read the others.

I am working on a coupe of sequels that would require you to follow the from book 1 to 2 to 3 and so on, but even with them I'm seeking to make each book a complete story.

Has anyone used bundles yo advertise a series.

I have failed in this one.

thanks MJ

I think writing the original would be most challenging for me. I felt like introducing the story just right, building the foundation just right, was most important, because I could lead the story where I want to, but my readers need to first understand what the story is even about. My chapters make the book feel jumbled, which is the intent because it is following the character's mind and memories. So, when I was writing, I got ideas of what could come next, which would be like building the outline in my head. I don't know what's going to happen to get to that point, but I know that point is important. So I may be able to play around with the chapters but that point needs to stay just as it is. And being able to refer to bits and pieces of previous books excites me. Because the reader would have to have read the previous books to follow it.

So, in summary:
First book - detailed and intense, so hardest for me.
Following books - easier for me.

But, I think the whole thing is exciting anyways. You're creating a whole new world. And it's like letting people have a little glimpse into your mind if done the right way.

It's also supposedly easier to market when you've written a series. I just attended a lunch where the speaker was indie author d.s.kane who appears to have had some success with his espionage/techno-thriller series. I wrote about him and his observations as to why and how a series helps marketing efforts on my GR blog this week. What he said made sense to me although must admit have not written a series myself.

I don't know. I enjoyed writing the first, but I have also enjoyed fleshing out new parts of the world.

The original is probably the most fun starting out, because there's just so much freedom. Until the story is done and published, the world I'm creating is still completely malleable. I can change whatever I want if I decide I don't like it or can do something better/cooler/more interesting. But with a sequel, you're automatically confined to whatever you've already written. However, starting from scratch can be kind of overwhelming, so in that way I prefer to process of writing sequels because I already have a plot and world to build from.

Completely upside down. Wrote the first book and then loved one of the characters so much I went back and wrote her backstory before releasing the written story. Now after two books I am back to the first, which is the third in the series. However, I now see it was not that good and ended up with a complete rewrite.

I love the creating, not the editing.

I’m writing my sequel this winter. I think it’s equally daunting. I mean, on one hand, you’ve been to the rodeo before, LOL. You’re more conscious of word count, editing, story set up, ‘show not tell’...all that great stuff. You know your characters very well, like they live in your own skin.

At the same time, it can be hard to achieve that balance you need for new readers entering the series on book 2. You have to do quick but nonetheless captivating world building, all the while, also hit the ground running and not recap too much. You want all your past readers to feel like they’re getting launched into something fresh, right out of the gate. I think once I get further in, it will be much easier.

Also, the pressure of making your readers love your characters just as much as they did when first meeting them. I want them to continue following them along, trying to make out who they are and still question their decisions and motives. Human character isn’t flat. I won’t let my characters be either. ;)

I wrote a story and had people ask me for more of one of the side characters. I had never thought about writing a series. But it ended up working out and I wrote 3 books in total with it, all standalones, but all connected.

I wrote another story recently that I'm thinking of doing something similar with, but this time, I'm going in with that as my plan. In a way, it makes writing more difficult as some of these characters already have a world and a backstory that I have to commit to. But I also end up falling in love with these characters more than I do with my traditional standalone stories. But like Amie said, in a standalone in a series, you still have to give the reader a backstory on anything they've missed from previous stories or you'll lose reader interest quickly.

When I wrote my first novel, I had no intention of it becoming a series, but an editor saw it and said it was too much for one book. She suggested I make it into two books. Many rewrites later, I ended up with three books and I'm glad I did because it allowed me to develop the characters better and close the gap between the first and the third. But I agree, writing a series is a daunting task.

They are inseperable, the grand concept is the work of a minute and then you start trying to figure out how the heck the mc is going to get away with it

My series came out of weeks of dreaming about a particular character and her story. When I sat down to outline what I remembered (after 3 weeks of the dreams) I knew there was enough for at least 2 books, if not more. As book one finished up, the dreams started back up again. The outline is long enough for 4 and that's where I'll end her story. The first one was tearing down who this person had been and building her up again into who she was meant to be. The second did more development of the other characters, as well and reached two big goals for her story. The third I'm only 70 pages into atm, but seems to be focused more on the main character and her 2 counterparts (whom those who review seem to love the most.) I love being able to develop multiple characters over a series and really get in-depth into the story instead of having to gloss over so much.