Our Shared Shelf discussion

Meelie wrote: "Because Venus and Serena Williams are less athletic as Tim Henman or Roger Federer...? I really don’t think so!

This ‘athletic’ debate between the sexes becomes redundant when you categorise peopl..."

There's a history of women beating men in tennis. And in soccer female players are generally more technically better than the men.

Jasmine wrote: "Meelie wrote: "Because Venus and Serena Williams are less athletic as Tim Henman or Roger Federer...? I really don’t think so!

This ‘athletic’ debate between the sexes becomes redundant when you c..."

On this point, I'm totally agree with you Jasmine.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2...

Go Scotland! :-)

Laure wrote: "https://www.theguardian.com/society/2...

Go Scotland! :-)"

Domestic abuse to include 'controlling behavior' of men over women? That's almost all relationships ever! Scotland is going to have to send millions of men to prison.

Jasmine wrote: "Laure wrote: "https://www.theguardian.com/society/2...

Go Scotland! :-)"

Domestic abuse to include 'controlling behavior' of men over ..."

Hm, maybe you experienced some really shitty relationships. But at least here (i'm not in Scotland, but i can't imagine that it's that different around western Europe) most relationships do not include controlling behavior that any reasonable person would find strange (like controlling their bank accounts, moving their car when asleep or prescribing her meal times, which the article quotes). Only if you think of controlling behavior in a very very general way, but then most women will also exhibit this controlling behavior too.

Michaela wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Laure wrote: "https://www.theguardian.com/society/2...

Go Scotland! :-)"

Domestic abuse to include 'controlling behavi..."

Everyday things like the man not looking after the kids as much as the mother is controlling behavior which perpetuates the patriarchy and the oppression of womanhood.

I would never define "not looking after something" as any sort of controlling behavior. There are mothers who do not look after their children too. There are parents where both don't or both do. But it's neglect, not controlling behavior in my eyes.

So let's discuss what is controlling behavior.

Controlling behavior can begin innocently as with childhood friends laying down the "ground rules" of being friends. And even they sometimes led to ultimatums "If you befriend Person Y, we won't be friends anymore." So when does it move from being an acceptable ways of interacting with people into something that sends off a "RED Flag" warning?

What are some signs that your partner is controlling? Be this male, female, trans, straight, queer, gay, lesbian. What are the signs that your family members or friends are controlling?

Why do people control? Or feel the need to control?

When thinking about controlling behavior, i'll always end up with the psychological thinking. Every relationship is also a power relationship, where partners/friends/family show dominance/submission to certain degrees. In a good relationship they tend to find a healthy balance, where everyone gets to dominate in some aspects and submit in others (like i get to choose which brand of toothpaste we buy, my boyfriend gets to choose which mustard). And even if it's not 50/50 it can be okay, because some people are more dominant/submissive than others and if they find a partner who complements that need they are happy.

That's why i like the idea of a "reasonable person" test. Because i think it's bad to condemn every little example of controlling behavior, as long as it's not against the persons beliefs/will and not harmful. Then we would start to regulate normal interaction, which i can't see as a good thing at all.

The Canada's national anthem is gender neutral now. : )

The BBC Article :

http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-42977...

Lewis wrote: "Even if I'm not a fan of soccer, I broadly prefer to watch a women soccer match because their game are more "smart" than men. I find their tactic more elaborate."

The difference between men soccer and women soccer is:

A man player who was not even hit by anything is simulating a horrible wound whereas a woman who is bleeding due to a real accident is like "No I'm fine, let's do it." ^^

I am exaggerating but professional men soccer has the tendancy to be more show than sport while it is the opposite for women.

Great comment Florian.

Could you add it to the Women in Sports thread? We don't want to take away more from the Progress thread.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Sure ;)

Lewis wrote: "The Canada's national anthem is gender neutral now. : )

The BBC Article :

http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-42977......"

I am Canadian, and very happy about the change!! :)

So th 2nd OII Europe Community Event just took place in the last couple of days (and this being the reason I wasn't online). It was also the biggest human rights based intersex gathering in history to this date, with about 50 intersex people participating:)

Folks, it as amazing;)

Awesome!

MeerderWörter wrote: "So th 2nd OII Europe Community Event just took place in the last couple of days (and this being the reason I wasn't online). It was also the biggest human rights based intersex gathering in history..."

Welcome back @Meerder ! : )

It's a good thing these kind of event gather more and more people along the years.

Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for environment and Equality.

Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for environment and Equality."

Good move! It got me thinking on ways we can improve the hiring system, for big companies and the public sector, what if everytime an interview board chose a white male for a job or promotion - it first had to go to an Equality commission - where the recruiters would have to justify why they could not fill the position with a woman or ethnic minority person?

Perhaps it would make them think twice of opting for male, stale and pale and instead look more closely at diverse alternatives?

Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for environment and Equality."

Yes, it's a very good thing to make people aware that if they buy in a clever way, they can change everything.

Jasmine wrote: "Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for environment and Equality."

Good move! It got me thinking on ways we can impr..."

I'm agree, the hiring system in our modern countries must be reviewed to be more equal on every points of view.

Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for environment and Equality."

Good move! It got me thinking on ..."

It doesn't need to be reviewed it simple. Just stop hiring white men to well-paid roles. You can get round employment equality law by still 'interviewing' white men for the job but effectively have no intent on hiring or promoting them.

Hello Jasmine,

I am not sure to follow your reasoning. Are you suggesting to not hire a specific type of person based on characteristics they cannot control? I guess I mean characteristic they got when they were borned.
Also I would like to ask you, what are the final objectives to do so and maybe the consequences of those actions?

Have a good one! ;)

Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for environment and Equality."

Good move! It got m..."

This solution is not fair @Jasmine.

In my previous comment, I talk about an equal hiring system. In an equal system, white men can have their place for well paid jobs.

Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for environment and Equality."

Goo..."

Not quite. We agreed on a system where any white male promotion or hiring would be viewed with suspicion and sent to an equality commission who would do all in their power to see if that white male appointment could be voided.

You were on page with me then. Now you pretend that white men should have equal access?

Florian wrote: "Hello Jasmine,

I am not sure to follow your reasoning. Are you suggesting to not hire a specific type of person based on characteristics they cannot control? I guess I mean characteristic they got..."

We already do it we gender quota's for boards etc. And many companies have mentoring leadership schemes only for female employees.

It's perfectly acceptable, progressive and desirable to use affirmative action against white males.

Jasmine, what you are suggesting is not the aim of affirmative action. As its aim is to promote women and people of color to gain equal access to positions in politcs, economy and society.

But you are talking about something very different because you seem to suggest that white men should be prevented from having any access to politics, economy and society which is not what affirmative action is about. It's not about discriminating the ones who have privileges now as you suggest but it's about discriminating nobody and giving better chances to people who have few or no privilege now.

So yes, affirmative actions is absolutely acceptable, progressive and desirable. But you don't seem to understand what affirmative action is about and I think your idea of what you believe that affirmative action means is not acceptable, progressive and desirable.

Sascha wrote: "Jasmine, what you are suggesting is not the aim of affirmative action. As its aim is to promote women and people of color to gain equal access to positions in politcs, economy and society.

But you..."

Thanks for the patronizing attitude but I run my own business, so I know what are the smart ways to screen candidates thanks.

"you seem to suggest that white men should be prevented from having any access to politics, economy and society"

I did not say any. I implied severely reduced. Which IS what affirmative action is about. Less white men. Many of you seem unwilling to say that. Just be honest. There are too many white men in good positions and they need to be cut down to size. That means affirmative action against them. Why are so many people scared of stating that?

Jasmine wrote: "Florian wrote: "Hello Jasmine,

I am not sure to follow your reasoning. Are you suggesting to not hire a specific type of person based on characteristics they cannot control? I guess I mean charact..."

Hello Jasmine! :)

So if I a m not wrong, what you are saying is "They did something wrong to me, so I will reproduce it to people who look like them since they will probably do the same wrong thing to other people." is that what you meant?

About affirmative actions, are suggesting that they should be used against a specific type of people or to help to balance the world? For example: for high positions with high paychekcs we should have X% of females, Z% of males, A% of brown people, B% of black people, D% of asian type people etc... the aim being to have a balance or are you suggesting that white men should be totally wiped out from those positions in the futur? (PS: english is not my main language so I am not sure about the intensity of "wipe out" so be indulgent ;))

Also, you did not really reply to my questions:
"Are you suggesting to not hire a specific type of person based on characteristics they cannot control?" In the specific example you are talking about, I guess the criteria would be being born male and white.
"Also I would like to ask you, what are the final objectives to do so and maybe the consequences of those actions? "

Do you mind to answer? It would help me to fully understand your point of view :)

Have a good one!

Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for environment and E..."

I see the reality as it is. I know if we put in place a equal hiring system, white men will have less opportunities. We can't avoid that, it's mathematical.

I think your idea of an equality commission is good and can be a part of a solution but, as I said in another topic, make a real fair hiring system is a tough task and can trigger headache at everyone who try to reflect on. : )

By real fair system I mean an intersectional fair system caring about all forms of inequalities which can happen in the hiring process.

Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step forward for e..."

Well done on using so many words to say absolutely nothing at all.

Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Ross wrote: "Australian Vogue has appointed a new sustainability features editor, and its a woman. Big step..."

I really like your honesty @Jasmine, thank you. : )

I think what Lewis is trying to say is that what you, Jasmine, are purposing is taking things a bit further than where people want to go.

I think most people here think that putting in quotas or working to make sure that more businesses are hiring more poc/women, but they draw the line at specifically bringing in candidates knowing that you're just trying to hit a number.

Which... I know... that's what some people do currently with quotas helping to advance their chosen person. Got a quota to make sure you bring in X number of women, and you will get some people who do it, knowing full well that they will hire the male candidate they want. HR be darned.

But as we are seeing changes, I do not think we can say that everyone is out smarting screens.

Nor do I think we should continue the practice of discriminating people based on their race or gender. As a small business leader you will continue to do what you want. You just won't have my assistance in helping further that agenda past your own practices.

Pam wrote: "I think what Lewis is trying to say is that what you, Jasmine, are purposing is taking things a bit further than where people want to go.

I think most people here think that putting in quotas or ..."

I employ 23 people, 18 of which are women, all senior positions are held by women. That's a good thing for women, how is it bad?

Jasmine wrote: "Pam wrote: "I think what Lewis is trying to say is that what you, Jasmine, are purposing is taking things a bit further than where people want to go.

I think most people here think that putting i..."

It's such a very good thing for gender equality in your country.

I think as long as gender equality in hiring isn't reached in a country, I have no problem with the fact that 100% of a company's positions are taken by women.

Hello!

Lewis, you are making a really good point by saying in "your country" since each system is different. Maybe there are no linear solutions, plausibly this issue is interconnected with other situations and cannot be resolved while neglecting the other points.

Jasmine, I do not think this is bad. However, your example is a small scale example, even if "small" is of course relative. Potentially, the system you are describing is working well and everyone involved in that system is fairly pleased (not sure "be fairly pleased" is correct, hopefully it means something).
The more people/parameters, the more difficult the system becomes since sometime the benefit of one person decreases while the number of people grows. Are people willing to give up a part of their "good fortune" to the benefit of others (especially for those who got unlucky)?
Of course I do not mean that nothing should be done at small scale, some people (me included) cannot act at large scale on their own since they do not have the influence to do so.
Fortunatly, some people evolve and get a larger influence or already have it and they choose to use it to do what, in their opinion, is right while opening their mind and questioning themselves.

The good point is 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 and sometime 1 + 1 + 1 = way more than 3. It is mathematically incorrect ( @Lewis: ;) ^^) but I like the idea of synergy.

PS: by system I mean the environment or the sociecty, things that surround us etc... well I hope you got the idea.

Jasmine wrote: "Pam wrote: " I employ 23 people, 18 of which are women, all senior positions are held by women. That's a good thing for women, how is it bad thing "
Everybody on this forum would agree that more women working is a good thing. Where we differ is on the value we place on it and what it took to get there. The trade-offs.

If we ask everyone here a series of questions we would get to understand more of what each individual prioritizes to get to the end result of more women working.

If we were to take the following either or statements

Men vs Women.
Justice vs Fairness
Quickly vs Conservatively
Years vs Generations
Do anything to get the job done vs Do anything to not hurt anyone
Etc etc..

And put them on some sort of scale, all of us on this forum would potentially have a different priority map. Some of us value speed - making sure to get the job done now before more suffer - whereas some of us think that lasting change takes time. Some would prefer that men are fired to get more women in place whereas others would not prefer it.

It's all a spectrum.

And my map is more cautious and slow going than yours.

So while I can respect your capabilities as a small businesses owner with 23 direct hires, I put more value on equality than doing anything to hire more women such as out smarting quotas.

DC comics Supergirl 19, story of Supergirl helping a friend called Lee at high school dealing with being intersex. Mainstream comic sending such an open and positive message would have been Impossible not long ago.

Mmmmm Maybe about Intersex.

Comics though always taken on these issues: X-Men being a prime example of it.

DC's Geen Arrow also had a good spread on work on drugs, addiction, and AIDS was big the 90s. As well as the creation of Wonder Woman in general.

Ross wrote: "DC comics Supergirl 19, story of Supergirl helping a friend called Lee at high school dealing with being intersex. Mainstream comic sending such an open and positive message would have been Impossi..."

I need to check that one out:D

Pam wrote: "Mmmmm Maybe about Intersex.

Comics though always taken on these issues: X-Men being a prime example of it.

DC's Geen Arrow also had a good spread on work on drugs, addiction, and AIDS was big t..."

Well, superhero are usually depressed people either because of tough experiences or just because they feel powerless compared to the great causes they are fighting for.

And because to sell books on a weekly/biweekly schedule you need to do something besides hitting the flavor of the week.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/12...

trinidad and tobago has just legalised gay sex Brilliant :)

Ross wrote: "https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/12...

trinidad and tobago has just legalised gay sex Brilliant :)"

"Wie kann man nur hassen was Menschen lieben, Realität ist."
~ Sookee - Spuck auf Rechts

Seriously, how can one hate what humans love, that is reality...

Very glad to hear that.

https://www.reuters.com/article/portu...

And they keep coming. portugal approves law to boost transgender-rights protect intersex infants

That is really good news.

@MeederWörter: I am tempted to say that some people think their moral are above everyone and sentenced people who do not obey to that rigid moral. They try to contain life and order it but the most ordered system is a frozen system where life does not exist. That is the reason why those people will at the end always fail ;) life is not stagnation and order but motion and evolution! :)

We have been subjegating what love is for a very long time. Marriage, divorce, sexual revolution, etc.

Indeed, very good news to hear. : )

@Florian :

Very brilliant analysis! : )

I also think the most ordered system is the void.

Ok, not sure if it is really related to a "progress" but I randomly found this while I was looking for random scientific articles for work.
Hopefully you can access it, if you cannot I'll try to copy past or screenshot the webpage.

https://www.frontiersin.org/research-...

To quickly summerize, this scientific journal created a section "Women in Science" where the future scientific articles made by women scientists will be posted. I am guessing that this is provocative since science is known to be a sexist world.

@Lewis: I would have said that death is the most ordered system :) but I got your idea and the meaning is the same :)

Ross wrote: "https://www.reuters.com/article/portu...

And they keep coming. portugal approves law to boos..."

Yeah, it's cool and everything, the only thing is:

"Parents could circumvent the legislation and have surgeries performed on their children by claiming they were confident of their gender identity, said Kitty Anderson, co-chair of OII.

“The law . . . doesn’t explicitly prohibit intersex genital mutilation (IGM), nor criminalize or adequately sanction IGM, nor address obstacles to access to justice and redress for IGM survivors,” said Daniela Truffer, co-founder of StopIGM.org."

It's not a win on the full line, but it's a win.