Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

"In the beginning, Elohim/Theos/God created the heaven and the earth."

How can we independently verify that the Heaven and the Earth were created by the Elohim? Most cultures claim that their version of "God" did the creating. And they do so with just as much faith and absence of evidence as the followers of Yahweh.

When was the Beginning?

What is meant by the Heaven?

What is meant by the Earth?

What do the writers mean by Elohim?

and, once again, how can we move beyond "faith" and independently verify any claim made for this verse.

Faith is required by both believers and non-believers. The latter group have zero explanation for the first cause, and they never will. Believers are led by Hebrews 11:6, which tells us "and without faith it is impossible to please God."

Zeus, the spaghetti monster, et. al. didn't die for your sins. Jesus did. Repent and trust alone in Him and you will have everlasting life.

What do other religions state about this origin? Fighting Demi-gods? Giant turtles? Chaotic meaningless explosions producing order?

I'll go with the Bible until proven otherwise.

Stuart wrote: ""How can we independently verify that the Heaven and the Earth were created by the Elohim?..."

Trust the EYE WITNESS ! God!

Keep going Stewie - my God even explains the order and purpose of His creating.

Stuart wrote: ""In the beginning, Elohim/Theos/God created the heaven and the earth."

How can we independently verify that the Heaven and the Earth were created by the Elohim? Most cultures claim that their vers..."

1.) The resurrection of Christ, arguably a historical fact, is the grounding for the Scripture and its truth. Since Christ Himself is an authority (which came from His resurrection), and Christ Himself quotes the Scripture as His authority, we can trust on the authority of the Bible.

2.) As far as if Genesis is the actual creation account or if it's a story which seeks to forge Israel's identity as a nation by paralleling the structure of the temple with the creation order to tell a story about God's holiness and His dwelling, that's up for debate.

If Genesis isn't the creation account - then God owes us an apology. He basically has no right to judge us then.
But I'm sure it is.

Excellent point on the temple allegory ...!!!

Can you post links to this hypothesis?

It's something I've picked up on myself and I'd be very interested to read what others say.

The Elohim were the pre-Yahweh plural Cannanite concept of God. The Israelites were Cannanites and not a distinct ethnic monotheistic group.

Yahweh is very new as a mythological deity and these myths look to me like adaptations of older Sumerian Akkadian Babylonian Egyptian and Greek mythologies and appear to me to be allegories of social structure and layers of genuine history.

No version of God was eyewitness to the events in these myths and we insult the human writers by insisting they be taken literally

Stuart wrote: "No version of God was eyewitness to the events in these myths and we insult the human writers by insisting they be taken literally..."

My response: LOL!!!! Thanks for your OPINONS... but God was there when He created ALL things and He was the eye witness.

I will TRUST God WAY BEFORE I trust your self-aggrandizing OPINIONS.

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "No version of God was eyewitness to the events in these myths and we insult the human writers by insisting they be taken literally..."

My response: LOL!!!! Thanks for your OPINONS....."

Robert, your argument is a non sequitur since it assumes the answer before the argument.

Q: How do I know God created the world?
A: Because I trust God's Word
Q2: How can you trust God's Word?
A2: Because God was there and He wrote it.
Q3: How do you know He was there and that He wrote it?
A3: Because I trust God's Word

Stuart, if you are interested, check out John Walton's The Lost World of Genesis 1 and Peter Enns' The Evolution of Adam. While I agree with you that the Ancient Near Eastern context is important in discerning Genesis, I would say that Genesis was written to reflect ancient near eastern Canaanite deities on purpose as a polemical (&theological) statement which declares that YHWH is the one and only God.

Ben wrote: "Robert, your argument is a non sequitur since it assumes the answer before the argument..."

My response: Your comments are completely inane. In that they assume that God HAS TO PROVE HIMSELF.

Imagine thinking that the Creator of ALL and the Judge of ALL is in bondage to ANSWER to ALL!

Good science agrees perfectly with the Bible.

If no science agreed with the Bible - that would be a problem.

Rod wrote: "Good science agrees perfectly with the Bible.

If no science agreed with the Bible - that would be a problem."

Yes indeed Rod. All good science is in agreement with the Word of God.

The funny part is: it's not hard to spot bad science. Even Stewie should be able to do that. Yet most skeptics aren't skeptical of that for some reason???

I've read quite a few science books lately that are filled with Maybe's, We assumes, Most likely, it appears, must Haves, Since... yet people gullibly swallow it up.

At least Christians Know that a talking donkey is a comical miracle and defies nature.

Ben wrote: "Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "No version of God was eyewitness to the events in these myths and we insult the human writers by insisting they be taken literally..."

My response: LOL!!!! Thanks for..."

Thanks for the references, Ben.

These ones I will follow, as I think you have given them for genuine didactic purposes.

It's almost pointless debating childish egoists like Robert.

They usually lack the intellectual capacity to absorb and analyse a range of viewpoints.

Noise is a standard response when they are face to face.

Stuart wrote: "They usually lack the intellectual capacity to absorb and analyse a range of viewpoints...."

My response: Or we are too wise to QUESTION the Word of God.

One day you will KNOW the truth... I pray that you bow the knee to God before it is too late.

Ben wrote: "Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "No version of God was eyewitness to the events in these myths and we insult the human writers by insisting they be taken literally..."

My response: LOL!!!! Thanks for..."

And I too suspect polemical overtones in the Elohim creation myth.

It's quite a different theology than that found in the newer Yahweh Elohim re-creation myth.

Fanciful notions of "God" being behind the mythography aside, I see the possibility that they are very cleverly-written historical allegory.

I seriously doubt that the Yahwist priests who redacted the allegories pretended they were writing the word of their ethnic deities. A literal understanding was for the simple folk only.

I rather think they would laugh if they heard that people from supposedly advanced societies still believed that their stories of mud-men and rib-women were the word of the capital G God of the entire universe.

Robert wrote: "Rod wrote: "Good science agrees perfectly with the Bible.

If no science agreed with the Bible - that would be a problem."

Yes indeed Rod. All good science is in agreement with the Word of God."

And BAD science says the first human male was not created from mud by the mythological Jewish deity Yahweh, 4,004 years before Jesus - the co-creator of the entire universe and co-flooder of this planet - plonked himself into the uterus of a Jewish virgin - after the archangel Gabriel fluttered down from Heaven to give her the news.

And BAD science says the sun, moon, and stars were not created after vegetation appeared on the earth.

Stuart wrote: "I rather think they would laugh if they heard that people from supposedly advanced societies still believed that their stories of mud-men and rib-women were the word of the capital G God of the entire universe..."

My response: I know one person who will NOT be laughing when the final judgment comes... YOU!

Why do you even care? Why are you trying to TRASH a God you deny? Why are you DESPERATE to make the Bible NOT His Word?

I do NOT care one little bit about UFOs... and I don't join UFO discussion groups and TRASH them...

But you... you must be TERRIFIED of the JUDGMENT of the ONE TRUE and HOLY God!

Why else would you spend so much time in a group like this?

Stuart doesn't your science boast that man came from dirt (or a pond?) then magically sprouted legs and lungs, then mystically divided into male and female, and fairytale morality developed out of a magic hat with an ever evolving bunny rabbit into a non-chaotic universe that Father Cosmic time sorted out with the help of the deities of chance???

And you say Christianity has a desperation blind faith.?!??? Funny.

Stewie's science assumes we had a dead planet for ages until the magical sunbeams traveled here and then veggies grew out of rocks and lava. And then pixies sprinkled magic nature dust and out popped Stewie's ancestors.

My God IS light and creation. Weird, but it works.

Unless of course Stewie believes in space Aliens flinging life dust from planet to planet: like quite a few atheists I've chatted with. And they dare to mock ME??? Very entertaining indeed.

Robert, I understand your commitment to the inerrancy of Scripture. But this is the Christian Philosophical/Theological book club. The whole point of this club is to debate Scripture, its meaning, its relevance, and its questionable parts. To simply just reply to everyone with cherry-picked verses and saying "The Bible says so!" or "I believe God, so you're wrong!" is to betray the entire premise of this page.

Ben wrote: "Robert, I understand your commitment to the inerrancy of Scripture. But this is the Christian Philosophical/Theological book club. The whole point of this club is to debate Scripture, its meaning, ..."

Well said ...

Intriguing to note that the KJV says "the heaven", and most (or all) later versions say "heavens".

Anyone else noticed this ...?

What's the difference ...?

Why the change ...?

Thanks for grin up all these fun issues Stuart. I love them.

We both know not to get caught up in the English definitions of Heaven. The term is used throughout scripture. I say hold onto them loosely... see how they fit with the theme. Heaven: atmosphere, space, outer realm, beyond the sky...

The KJV was a work in progress with limited resources.

Rod wrote: "Thanks for grin up all these fun issues Stuart. I love them.

We both know not to get caught up in the English definitions of Heaven. The term is used throughout scripture. I say hold onto them loo..."

Ah yes, but we do find that Christians do appear to change the bits of the unchangeable "Word of God" they don't like anymore.

And sometimes they have the words mean just whatever they choose them to mean.

And insist that their chosen meaning is precisely what "God" meant when he/she/they inscribed the words on tablets of stone ... that we don't have anymore.

Ben wrote: " To simply just reply to everyone with cherry-picked verses and saying "The Bible says so!" or "I believe God, so you're wrong!" is to betray the entire premise of this page..."

My response: To reply with anything LESS than the TRUTH ... just because people give their OPINIONS and say it is NOT the TRUTH ... is to betray good sense!

Why would a true Christian do such a thing?

Stuart wrote: "Intriguing to note that the KJV says "the heaven", and most (or all) later versions say "heavens" ...?"

My response: Are you aware that the Bible was not originally written in English? The original language words all say the same thing.

Therefore, any point you might be trying to make based on translations... is pointless!

But do we really know what the Bible says?

For God's purposes YES. Us confusing some stuff is probably very entertaining to Him - and it says a fair bit about us.

Rod wrote: "But do we really know what the Bible says?

For God's purposes YES. Us confusing some stuff is probably very entertaining to Him - and it says a fair bit about us."

My response: True, but DIRECT quotes with NO personal commentary or private interpretations are not at all confusing. God says clearly what He meant... often we don't like it... and then we conduct mental gymnastics to make what God said mean something else.

I believe some revelations and meanings appear in different ages. For example: we had almost 1900 years with no State of Israel. We read the Bible in that light. But when it was reborn ----- we had to read much of scripture all over again. People are still failing at this.

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Intriguing to note that the KJV says "the heaven", and most (or all) later versions say "heavens" ...?"

My response: Are you aware that the Bible was not originally written in Engli..."

Now it's my turn to laugh ....

Your level of comprehension doesn't reach above bombastic Sunday-school fundamentalism.

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמוֹ, בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתוֹ: זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה, בָּרָא אֹתָם.

וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם, עָפָר מִן-הָאֲדָמָה, וַיִּפַּח בְּאַפָּיו, נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים; וַיְהִי הָאָדָם, לְנֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה.

You may care to comment on the clear contradiction ....

I don't have time to read the original languages and study what conclusions experts have come to over the last 1900 years.

But I do enjoy reading 25 different translations and realizing they are very very similar.

If we only had one Bible translated by ONE organization of scholars (like J.W.'s and their Watchtower gang) then I would be worried. But scholars are only as good as their teachers...
occasionally I come across atheists who claim ONLY THEY have the proper translation and I should blindly trust their 1900 years LATE scholarship.

Rod wrote: "I believe some revelations and meanings appear in different ages. For example: we had almost 1900 years with no State of Israel. We read the Bible in that light. But when it was reborn ----- we had..."

True... but things that are crystal clear ought not to have opinions and eisegetical notions read into them.

Stuart wrote: "Your level of comprehension doesn't reach above bombastic Sunday-school fundamentalism..."

My response: Nice job copying and pasting. Of course you have NO CLUE what it says (except for reading it in English from the source you grabbed it from.)

You of course do realize, that this is NOT a direct quote from the Bible. Don't you?

Robert wrote: "True, but DIRECT quotes with NO personal commentary or private interpretations are not at all confusing. God says clearly what He meant... often we don't like it... and then we conduct mental gymnastics to make what God said mean something else. "

Robert, direct quotes from the Bible without proper context is the fastest way to eisegesis. Words can only mean what they mean in proper context. Take, for instance, if I were to say "I love this course!"
This sentence would mean different things in different settings. If I were to say that after a university-level lecture, it should be assumed that I am talking about the university-level course.
But if I were to say "I love this course!" while playing a game of golf with my buddies, they would assume that I am talking about the golf course.

The same thing happens with Bible verses. In the other thread you claim that the Psalm has given you the authority to be a moderator, and that God will appoint another moderator when He sees fit: "6 For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.
7 But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another. " When obviously, the context is not about group moderators.

If so, then you must also obey the Psalmist who says that "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." (Ps. 137:9)

Now, taking into account the context of the Babylonian captivity, this verse makes much more sense as the Israelites are calling justice from God by being hyperbolic (according to ancient near eastern culture) in their lament. Since there weren't any police around, the only way to ask for justice is to ask it from above. How do I know this? Commentaries that reveal to me the context of the Scripture.

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Your level of comprehension doesn't reach above bombastic Sunday-school fundamentalism..."

My response: Nice job copying and pasting. Of course you have NO CLUE what it says (except..."

There is no such thing as THE Bible.

And it's several quotes.

One of which is Gen 1:1

The topic in question here.

And you still haven't answered where the missing 1,000 years have gone in your 1,600 years of biblical scripture ...?

Rod wrote: "I don't have time to read the original languages and study what conclusions experts have come to over the last 1900 years.

But I do enjoy reading 25 different translations and realizing they are ..."

Can you hazard a guess as to why 24 newer translations now see "the heaven" as "the heavens" ...?

It's only one little word.

And it's on topic.

Ben wrote: "Robert, direct quotes from the Bible without proper context is the fastest way to eisegesis. Words can only mean what they mean in proper context. Take, for instance, if..."

My response: Please quote where I stated to take the Bible out of context .

You seem to be in the majority today of those who believe that God has great difficulty in clearly communicating what He means . You seem to think that God NEEDS your help .

Stuart wrote: "There is no such thing as THE Bible...."

My response: You have never been in a book store have you?

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "There is no such thing as THE Bible...."

My response: You have never been in a book store have you?"

Where did the 1,000 years of "scripture" go Robert ...?

I'm sure lying by omission is a sin ....

Stuart wrote: "Where did the 1,000 years of "scripture" go Robert ...? I'm sure lying by omission is a sin ......."

My response: I already showed you...

...I am really glad that you are NOT my judge. All you do is offer your FALSE OPINIONS and claim they are facts.

The heaven/heavens issue.

Stewie, jump up to verse 8. How do the two uses of heaven fit together? Rather easily.

Scripture often simply AND perfectly interprets scripture. The best way to solve a Bible challenge is usually to just keep reading.

Well picked Roddie. The dome of air the Elohim opened in the water of the universe is called Heaven.

We're actually living in Heaven right now.

That's how Yahweh was able to flutter down from the clouds and speak with Adam and Abraham and God only knows who else.

And that's howvthe ever-loving Yahweh was able to open the windows and drown all the kiddies who weren't old enough to be brainwashed into accepting this creation mythology as reality.

Heaven is a rather loose term. Like most words in an English dictionary: it has a few meanings. Why does this upset you Stewie?

Am I brainwashed? Hmmm... I spend a great deal of my life reading and researching things that critique my belief system. Do you critique yours? Most don't. It's my favorite hobby.

Who says there were any kiddies for Yahweh to drown? Unless their pagan parents had some leftovers that they failed to burn in sacrifice to their demon gods.

I'd rather drown too.

Rod wrote: "Who says there were any kiddies for Yahweh to drown? Unless their pagan parents had some leftovers that they failed to burn in sacrifice to their demon gods.

I'd rather drown too."

Come on Roddie - you know that wasn't a very grown up response ....

Stuart wrote: "We're actually living in Heaven right now...."

If this is "Heaven"... you serve a PITIFUL god... the Bible calls him the god of this world.

If there is another religion that claims its "version of god" spoke the universe into existence ex nihilo, I'd like to know what it is. Science resisted this narrative, until one day the evidence became so incontrovertible it had to agree with scripture.

Robert Jastrow, astronomer, physicist and cosmologist:

For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.
God and the Astronomers (1978), p. 116; (p. 107 in 1992 edition).

My emphasis. More evidence that Stuart can flippantly declare "non evidence."

Herbert Spencer, a non-Christian scientist, hailed as one worthy of many prizes in science, died in 1903. His greatest achievement, Herbert Spencer, was that he discovered the categories of the knowable. That is to say he determined that everything that exists fits into one of five categories. This was hailed as a massive, massive cataloging of realities. Spencer said, “Everything fits into one of these categories, time, force, action, space, matter,” and was hailed by the scientific community.

Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning,” that’s time, “God,” that’s force, “created,” that’s action, “the heavens,” that’s space, “the earth,” that’s matter. Everything that Herbert Spencer discovered in 1903, or before that, was in the first verse of Scripture. The Bible says that God created everything, and in saying that, the Bible gives us all the categories that exist. And He did this out of and from nothing, that is with no preexisting material, and He did it in six days. -- John Macarthur