Historical Fictionistas discussion

I am writing a book set in Renaissance Era France and one of my characters is a feisty Spanish woman. Since everyone is French, the only accent I think I should highlight is the Spanish woman and I am having trouble with her speech.

I tried running it through google translate to Spanish and then back to English, but all it seemed to do was change her to his.

Does anybody have any ideas where I can find how to write her?

I hate books that overdo with the different language. I'm thinking Mammy in Gone with the Wind or the Grapes of Wrath. I think they are hard to read and frustrating. I just want maybe a little broken English or maybe a few misspellings (but I don't want people to think it is a typo).

Any ideas?

This is a really tough issue, and I guess it's in part a matter of reading it aloud to yourself and seeing how it sounds. I think Georgette Heyer does brilliantly in French by having her French-speaking characters use the English-language version of familiar French expressions--like instead of saying petit chou, they say "little cabbage." But this would work better in a comic context than a dramatic one. I'm struggling with a similar issue in a novel set in England in the year 1800--how to render the slang of the rural people in Surrey without going overboard. In general, I use the slang only if its meaning is clear from the context, so it will give a flavor of the speech without slowing the reader down. Dunno if any of this helps.

I personally hate when authors do that. And usually it's something easy like "what do you call it, 'casa'? A house?" type of thing. The least you should do is to ask someone who speaks Spanish as their mother tongue, because otherwise it will probably sound fake. (There must be several regional dialects in Spain, too.) Or hope that no Spaniard (or French?) reads the book.

As someone who is writing a series with characters who speak different languages (some are bilingual, others not, a third in process), I have a lot of sympathy for you. I suggest a few principles that may be helpful.

1. Do you need to indicate a difference? That is, do you have a reason why your Spanish woman speaks less-than-native French? If not, treat them both as native English, on the grounds that you are translating everything.

2. If yes, think about which specific features differentiate Spanish from French and French from English. Which mistakes would a Spanish woman make in French, and which of those mistakes would translate into English? This requires a knowledge of the grammar and the syntax of all three languages.

Fortunately, Spanish and French are not that far apart. But you absolutely CANNOT depend on Google Translate for that information. It uses computers, not humans, and computers just do not "get" it where natural languages are concerned. Run it past a native speaker, if you can find one. If not, make your best guess. It will be better than Google's.

3. Ask yourself what the difference adds. In my case, I managed to turn the language difference into a crucial plot point (I could have gone farther, but it would have required too much exposition). If it is merely cute, forget it. Render the phrase in English or let it go.

4. If you disregard 3, supply an in-text glossary. ;-) As in

"Ené." Little brother? That was the best he could do?

Actually the Spanish woman is looked down upon because of her dark skin and accent, so that is why I wanted to change it up a bit. I trilled the R's in the first chapter where she appears a couple of times, and then I said the other character understood her accent and didn't do it any more, but a beta said some of my characters sound the same so I was trying to come up with characteristics and this was an obvious one, but I don't really know how to do it.

Do you know Spanish? Or French? If not, maybe the problem has to do with personality rather than language.

That is, characters can sound the same even if they all speak English. The author's job is to figure out what makes them distinct. Language can be a component, but if the difference isn't obvious, I would look for what else divides them.

No, unfortunately, I don't know the other languages. I have to work on the personalities, too, but since I specifically say people mistrust her because of the way she looks, I thought I should put a bit of accent in there anyway.

Janet wrote: "Actually the Spanish woman is looked down upon because of her dark skin and accent"

Is there any basis for that? French wasn't exactly modern French at the time and probably had even more and stronger dialects than now. Educated people spoke Latin.

And does "dark skin" mean black? I'm not sure I could separate French and Spanish people otherwise. There probably were some black people in Europe at the time but... Leo Africanus was welcomed into the papal court so him being probably Arabic wasn't a problem.

Can I offer a method I use that seems to work. When I use dialogue meant to be another language I use italics to show this. I will use just a few words of say Spanish in Italics and then change to English but still using italic. Readers find this easy to follow and it solves the problem of iffy translations of the kind that Google gives. One can change the grammar to suit a little but I think we must give readers credit for knowing what the author intends.
Too much poor Spanish or Latin or French just kills the flow and leaves one open to 'word-nerds' criticism.
One can give characteristic speech patterns and use a few dialect words that are obvious from context and we must beware of modern idioms creeping in. Avoid contractions too - such as 'did not' rather than 'didn't.
I'd say keep it simple and don't get to hung up on demonstrating the depth of your research or historical language niceties.

Tytti wrote: "Janet wrote: "Actually the Spanish woman is looked down upon because of her dark skin and accent"

Is there any basis for that? French wasn't exactly modern French at the time and probably had even..."

As a reader, I have patience with dialect or unusual speech if it's consistent. You're writing in English, so though your characters are speaking French, we're reading their dialogue in English. therefore, in order for a character to stick out in terms of dialogue for me, they would need to make consistent and believable small errors. Somewhat tangentially, I'm reminded of a discussion about the difference between Quebec French, and the French spoken in other parts of Canada. Modern Quebec French is closer to modern Parisian, but French spoken in other parts of Canada roles its r's more at the front of the tongue. This is because, in the 16th/17th centuries when the French began settling Canada, French had this rolling r's at the front of the tongue thing in common with Spanish. In Europe, The role moved further back making more of a glottal sound. This shift was mirrored in Quebec, but not in the rest of French speaking Canada; a noticeable difference that persists today. I don't think this helps you at all, but I found it really interesting.

I find it's enough if the character just occasionally lapses in small phrases or words, like "Sì" or "Que?" or "Muy bueno," or if once in a while she pauses on some uncommon word with "...What is the word...compromise?" Just an occasional reminder.

Or since she is a bit fiery, she can always "explode into a tirade of incomprehensible spanish oaths." :)

Thank you. These are great suggestions!

You might also keep in mind that what trips us up the most are phrases that are similar. The dissimilar phrases we learn; the similar ones we (that is, our brains) make assumptions about. I think of my Italian vet, who spoke excellent English but said "ah-nee-mahl" and "pair-fect." Because there is only so much attention to go around, so we have to focus on the essentials, at least until the language becomes second nature.

Particularly treacherous are words that sound the same but mean different things in related languages. For example, "ostorozhno" in Russian means "dangerous" and, by extension, "take care." In Czech, it means (I think—it's been a while) "careful, cautious." Which is similar in some ways, but not in others, and just dissimilar enough to get a character in trouble....

I am considering using only words that an English speaking person would know. "Diablo", "Amigo", "Si", "Padre" and such, and I think she will explode into a tirade of incomprehensible Spanish oaths, too.

Or do you think that would sound dumb?

I think it sounds dumb only if you get it wrong. What you propose sounds like an acceptable solution to me.

But do think about what makes this person unique—if you have not already. What does she want, and why? That is the essence of character.

Also, it helps me to remember (not my insight) that every character is the hero(ine) of his/her own story.

Sometimes it disturbs the story too much if different characters are speaking with accents, or in dialect form. Used Devon dialect in my first novel. Tricky. Sometimes people think you are not writing grammatically, if they've not encountered it before.

What is Devon dialect?

That's what I was afraid of, it would just look like typos or grammatical errors.

Pronunciation also changes over time. So something that seems simple and obvious, like writing an 18th-century character saying bein' or goin' ignores the fact that everyone then dropped their final g's, so being and going are just as accurate (and less annoying).

In fact, I do exactly that in The Not Exactly Scarlet Pimpernel, but only because it acts as a subtle clue that Character A is talking rather than Character B, even though they look exactly the same. As a general rule, I avoid dialect like the proverbial plague.

What is useful is to reproduce speech rhythms and unique phrasing, which every regional speech has.

Janet wrote: "What is Devon dialect?

That's what I was afraid of, it would just look like typos or grammatical errors."
Devon is a county in England and it has many words which are different to English. For instance, drumbledrone is a bee, and appledrane is a wasp,(this is also a term used in Cornwall, I believe). It is also somewhat ungrammatical. In my current novel I have characters who are French, Alsatian(from Alsace in France)Jewish and Devonian, and I have let them all speak English. A whole lot easier, I think.

That is exactly what I did, but how are you differentiating them?

I occasionally suggest that one character has a French accent, or say that they are speaking together in Alsatian. I must confess I have put a slight bit of Devon dialect in,(could not resist it) but have really toned it down, so that it is more like normal English.

Thanks.

It is clearly not an easy issue to resolve, but if the use of dialect or language gets in the way of the story, then it seems better just to use English, even if not correct.

I'm working with a unique angle on this subject. My current novel is set so far back in the past that there's no record at all of the language, and the culture is so different that there are concepts English doesn't have words for. I'm trying to do what Anthony Burgess did so brilliantly in A Clockwork Orange which is to essentially create a language. Of course I'm only using 1 or 2 dozen nouns. I recognize this is a risky strategy, that some readers may be alienated, but the challenge is to "show don't tell," which is to say never define the words outright, but make their meaning clear through context. As a reader, I like to be challenged by an inventive and skillful author, and I try not to be afraid to challenge readers in this way. If we're clear, consistent and deft, I don't think we need to aim towards the lowest common denominator.

Good Luck Christine. That sounds like some undertaking. I'll be interested in reading it when you are finished.

Good luck, Christine as well. It sounds very interesting and I also look forward to reading it.
It sounds sci-fi to me, as well as historical, both of which are my interests.

Janet wrote: "Good Luck Christine. That sounds like some undertaking. I'll be interested in reading it when you are finished."

Thanks, me too! I'm suffering through writer's malaise. The thing to do is probably just to sit down in front of the computer and force out a few paragraphs and see if it starts to flow.

Yes, that's what I do. It always seems better to write something, than nothing, and then things often start to move again.

As Michele mentioned above, throwing in a familiar foreign word here and there would be a good indication. But may I suggest changing the way the character phrases some of their sentences. For example, in French they'd say, 'I have something to YOU TELL,' rather than 'I have something to tell you.' It sounds a little off but if you find a combination that isn't jarring it may work.

Barbara, a good example of what you mention is How Green Was My Valley. The word order and some of the phrases are different from what we use in English, but you get a good flavor, if it's not COMPLETELY accurate, about how Welsh might sound.

I find some use of accents is important, but you have to be careful not to go too far, otherwise the book can become almost unreadable. As my first effort is set in the 14th century, the accents and speech patterns need to reflect the both the different regions of England, plus Scotland and Wales and the different classes of person. For example, it would be utterly wrong to have a Cumberland hobelar speaking in the same style as a major English baron. And it all has to be understandable to today's reader.

In fact the nobility of England were still speaking to each other in French at the time, but I have avoided that entirely in any fictional conversations between them. I do refer to the fact that most messages were written in French, when one of my leading characters admits he sometimes has problems understanding them, and has to ask the bishop or the abbot for a second opinion.

I have used occasional Cumberland dialect words where I think they can be easily understood - just yance or twice if you ken my meaning. I often use the word "bairn" instead of child or baby whenever one of my Cumberlanders is speaking, or a Scot as the word is widespread on both sides of the border. No aristocrat would ever use that word. But I feel it helps to reinforce a sense of place in the book.

I am happy with the balance I have achieved, and some of those who have listened to my efforts seem equally happy with it. The trouble is, they are all fellow Cumbrians!

Jane wrote: "Barbara, a good example of what you mention is How Green Was My Valley. The word order and some of the phrases are different from what we use in English, but you get a good flavor, if..."

I agree! The language is poetic in that book. The author rearranges the structure of the sentences a bit and uses the phrase "there is" to suggest Welsh speech.

I have been told many, many times that I write great accents.

The funny thing about that is that I do not write accents.

The only time I ever write accents is if one character is making fun of how another character talks.

But yet, my readers hear the accents I intend for them to hear. This is because every single character I ever write has a set of speech rules I follow when I write their dialog. This includes the rhythm of their speech, slang, syntax, and speech habits. Letting a reader know who the character is and how other characters see him or her, coupled with reliable speech patterns makes the reader hear an accent that I am not spelling out for them.

I cannot stand when a writer spells out an accent phonetically. There's a few instances I feel that's permissible, but generally, I think there's more effective ways to do that.