Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

Interesting discussion between Niki, Margret and I.

I have a very liberal definition of UF. If it has modern cities and things like cars to me it's UF even if it applies to other sub genres.

So The Reckoners is a UF/YA/Sci-Fi\Dystopian blend to me. I think Niki would define this quite differently.

Devine Cities (City of Stairs/Blades/Miracle) starts out steampunk but by the last book is UF in my mind. Again cars, modern machinery......this world is very different than our own and I think I'm in the vast minority defining these books as UF.

Books like these I really like. The traditional UF has the modern setting but I think people define it with the romantic themes. Now these books I struggle with.

Daughter of Smoke and Bone
Raven Boys

Things of that nature I think are more defined as traditional UF.

What is your definition and what series so you like from this sub genre?

I've always struggled with defining this sub-genre. It's one of those things I've where always felt a book was UF or it was not.

By the letter of the definition, we might could call Harry Potter UF. It's modern(ish), set occasionally in the city of London, has magic and other fantasy elements. But nobody I've ever talked to about it calls it UF. I don't think of it as UF.

My first example when asked is The Dresden Files. I know it's a popular answer, but it fits so well.

Others I like are

Kitty Norville - Carrie Vaughn
Black Sun's Daughter - MLN Hanover (aka Daniel Abraham)
Neverwhere & American Gods - Neil Gaiman

Chris wrote: "My first example when asked is The Dresden Files. I know it's a popular answer, but it fits so well.

So why would Dresdan be UF but The Reckoners isn't?

Harry Potter is an excellent point. I think although there are UF elements because 99% of the action takes place in the magical world and it has a feel of antiquity none of us consider this UF.

I'm looking forward to Black Sun's Daughter. I simply love DA's writing style.

When I mention my first UF, I say Dresden Files, with the caveat that Harry Potter is technically a pre-cursor...

I call UF and PNR a sliding scale, where UF has an ongoing romance spread across a series (and maybe even some breakups like in The Hollows), and PNR has a different couple and HEA each book... some series like Women of the Otherworld or Guild Hunters change it up, with some characters getting multiple books and others being one-offs...

In general, Scott's rules for what makes a UF seem pretty accurate...

I've read a wide variety of the genre... my favorites would be:

Others -- Anne Bishop (very much an alt-history)
October Daye -- Seanan McGuire
Mercy Thompson and Alpha & Omega -- Patricia Briggs
Kate Daniels -- Ilona Andrews

I liked Chicagoland Vampires (Chloe Neill) for the characters more than the slow plot

I can see the argument where Reckoners could be UF. I mean, it literally has cities (urban) and fantasy elements.

But its whole post-apocalyptic superhero (villain) feel has it someplace else, to me.

Dresden/Black Sun's/October Daye, those all "feel" UF without question to me. I listed the Gaiman's as they fit, but they don't as easily represent the genre. They bleed into other areas....

Like I said, it's a tough call. A lot of the PNF romance would technically fit but doesn't have that same feel, to me.

Well my two cents in genres is that there a bitch to label because there is really no straight answer to this because of how branched out these genres are like I remember watching a comic con panel with rothfuss Brett hobb and other people and they were talking about how difficult labelling genre is because of different things such as what's the difference between grimdark or dark fantasy or urban fantasy and dystopian and so on and one of my film lecturers talked to me about making an experimental film for a new camera that we shouldn't focus on genre because people have different ways of defining it and your just gonna restrict yourselves in a way and I hear a lot of authors of how publishers market them because in there eyes it's not considered that genre and I think it's a problem with all mediums of different genres

Now as to urban fantasy I see it as being set in a modern world like Harry Potter or Dresden although I may count fantasy worlds which have the same technology as our world like sabriel and I think mistborn in a couple of years as urban fantasy as well in a way

Although I find it funny because urban usually means cities and if we go literally then every book that is set in a city is urban fantasy or so

If you want to simplify the genres as much as possible (which I generally do, I don't want a million genre shelves) I'd put Reckoners into UF (which I think I did actually)... but when describing the series I say its about superheroes/supervillains...

Similar to how Grimnoir Chronicles by Larry Correia is called Dieselpunk since its in the 1920s/1930s with Tommy guns and airships, but is really also about people with superpowers from another dimension...

Urban Fantasy has always had a negative connotation in my mind, because for whatever reason, the first thing I think of is Twilight and all of the ridiculous Vampire Romances that are out there.

*shrugs*. I don't know to be honest. It seems like kind of a fluid thing. Hard to define precisely.

Liam wrote: "Urban Fantasy has always had a negative connotation in my mind, because for whatever reason, the first thing I think of is Twilight and all of the ridiculous Vampire Romances that are out there.

..."

That falls into the "YA Problem"... my definition doesn't work as well with YA, because PNR Happily Ever Afters tend to get drawn out with angst and love triangles a lot more there to avoid/delay (graphic) sex scenes...

It's also why I tend to avoid YA... those are the 2 things I can't stand...

I'd agree with Scott's perception of UF. It's a genre that I've read a lot of books/series in. Some of my faves are: The Hollows, October Daye, Mercy Thompson, Nathaniel Cade (if Jack Bauer were a vampire).

Older shows like Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie were examples of UF.

PNR, although it can be set in modern day and have the same supernatural characters as straight up UF, is different IMO in it's focus. Whereas UF can have a romantic relationship develop between main characters, it's a sub-plot (sometimes the C or D sub-plot) and if you could remove it from the story it would all still make sense. PNR, on the other hand, has the romance as the main drive and focus of the big plot and if you took it out you'd be left with a skeletal outline of a story. Also, as Iain pointed out, if it's a series the main couple usually changes with each book.

For all these reasons, PNR doesn't interest me at all but UF does. :-)

Liam wrote: "Urban Fantasy has always had a negative connotation in my mind, because for whatever reason, the first thing I think of is Twilight and all of the ridiculous Vampire Romances that are out there.

..."

YA UF is not a good gauge of the genre, lol. I avoid it like the plague. Emo teens, love triangles galore.....I'd rather have an ice pick shoved through my eyeball.

Now some adult UF series can also have love triangles but I avoid those as well.

I categorized The Reckoners as UF. It has some dystopian elements to it, but with the super powers it feels more UF to me.

Harry Potter is low fantasy - set in the real world with traditional fantasy elements to it.

Twilight is PNR because the romance is the main focus of the story. That's the difference between PNR and UF. There may be romance in an UF but it is a part of a bigger story and isn't the focus of the story. UF is grittier in general as well.

Dresden and Kate Daniels are both UF. Mercy Thompson is closer to PNR but I think it still ends up on the UF side.

Wax and Wayne is UF to me, even though it's not set in modern times. It has an UF feel.

Mercy Thompson had a small love triangle in the first 3-4 books, but I never took it very seriously, and it resolved rather than dragging out...

Some of my UF series

Broken Earth The Fifth Season is very dystopian and sci-fi but there's clearly a past with giant cities and technology.

Reckoners Steelheart as discussed super-hero, dystopian, sci-fi but set in a modern world with buildings, electricity, cars, etc.

Menagerie is an alternative history set in the US. I think this is UF by anybody's definition. I like the series.

Dresden I DNF'd but clearly UF.

The Rook Checqey Files is a Secret Service version of Dresden.

Devine Cites (stairs/blades/miracle) is a different world but cars, etc by book three and large cities.

Monsters of verity This Savage Song is dystopian/UF with known modern cities.

Raven Boys is a set modern setting. YA/UF/Romance that I struggle with.

Daughter of Smoke and Bone would be epic if it was written by a Grimdark author. Loved the worlds merging, hated the gushing teen angst romance.

Lockwood and Co is ghost hunters and grade school. Love the cheeky British humor.

Iain wrote: "Mercy Thompson had a small love triangle in the first 3-4 books, but I never took it very seriously, and it resolved rather than dragging out..."

Yeah it wasn't bad. It still has a heavier focus on the romantic relationship than some of the other UFs I've read.

@Tammie: Yea... romance and pack dynamics play a much larger role in Mercy Thompson series...

@Scott: I wouldn't consider Broken Earth as UF... the world has clearly regressed back to medieval times... your typical fantasy setting...

Ever played Final Fantasy X... kinda like that really... unless some tech is revealed in Stone Sky I don't know about...

Iain wrote: "
@Scott: I wouldn't consider Broken Earth as UF... the world has clearly regressed back to medieval tim..."

Yes and no. There's still modern medicine, corepoint and the fulcrum have advanced facilities. Station Eleven which is dystopian not fantasy things are pushed back in many ways to medieval times but coming out of modern society.

I'd put Reckoners as a low fantasy rather than an urban fantasy. I'd also agree that superhero stuff deserves its own sub-category.

Scott, I put Raven Boys as PNR, but it was close. It was kind of hard to categorize it. It's kind of in between UF and PNR, but it fell on the PNR side for me because of the whole theme of her causing her true love to die that's even in the book's description.

Niki Hawkes wrote: "I'd put Reckoners as a low fantasy rather than an urban fantasy. I'd also agree that superhero stuff deserves its own sub-category."

I guess I just didn't think there were enough traditional fantasy elements to it to categorize it as low fantasy. It's definitely one of those series that are hard to categorize.

Tammie wrote: "Scott, I put Raven Boys as PNR, but it was close. It was kind of hard to categorize it. It's kind of in between UF and PNR, but it fell on the PNR side for me because of the whole theme of her caus..."

I agree. I think you've helped me define my UF issue. PNR/UF I struggle with. UF/Sci-FI, UF/Magic, UF/Dystopian and others I actually like.

Niki Hawkes wrote: "I'd put Reckoners as a low fantasy rather than an urban fantasy. I'd also agree that superhero stuff deserves its own sub-category."

I think it comes down to super powers vs. magic system. For me super powers tend to fit in UF better. Magic system would fit better into low fantasy.

I think the fact that it's a Sanderson and his magic system manifests in different ways for each cosmere book is what makes me think "magic system" for that one. There's also a distinct lack of paranormal, which is typically how I make the distinction between the two. Reckoners really was a one of a kind trilogy that I'd definitely create a new "YA Superhero" category for. Zeroes by Westerfeld also fits into that.

Reckoners isn't part of the Cosmere... I don't think any of his YA stuff is part of the Cosmere (yet... I think I heard plans for 1 YA Cosmere series)

Reckoners has a spinoff coming next year tho: ... seems more solidly sci-fi

Niki Hawkes wrote: "I think the fact that it's a Sanderson and his magic system manifests in different ways for each cosmere book is what makes me think "magic system" for that one. There's also a distinct lack of par..."

Hi my name is Niki and I'm a catagorioholic.

Hi Niki!

Niki Hawkes wrote: "I think the fact that it's a Sanderson and his magic system manifests in different ways for each cosmere book is what makes me think "magic system" for that one. There's also a distinct lack of par..."

I did also add it to my "super heroes and villains" bookshelf.

Iain wrote: "Reckoners isn't part of the Cosmere... I don't think any of his YA stuff is part of the Cosmere (yet... I think I heard plans for 1 YA Cosmere series)

Reckoners has a spinoff coming next year tho:..."

Interesting. I thought it was a part of the Cosmere too. On a related note, have you read his short story Snapshot? It is set in the same world as the Reckoners, but is a completely different story, and is not YA.

Afaik urban fantasy is really wide in its spectrum...It is any fantasy set in urban setting, contemporary or not, fiction or not, does not matter.

But I tend to be more specific. If there is a fiction about the lives in King's Landing I would not call it UF. Harry Potter, while he often travels to London, is still not UF since most of the times are spent elsewhere. So, for me personally it is fantasy set in modern urban setting in our world (which makes it part of low fantasy). Like The Peter Grant series. It often crosses with paranormal fantasy even though not always the case.

Scott wrote: "Niki Hawkes wrote: "I think the fact that it's a Sanderson and his magic system manifests in different ways for each cosmere book is what makes me think "magic system" for that one. There's also a ..."

I'd been clean for almost 10 hrs before this conversation.

Iain wrote: "Reckoners isn't part of the Cosmere... I don't think any of his YA stuff is part of the Cosmere (yet... I think I heard plans for 1 YA Cosmere series)

Reckoners has a spinoff coming next year tho:..."

Yes, you're right. What I was getting at was that his magic systems always seem to function similarly, and Calamity has the same properites as shard, imo.

I'm going off my observations from my bookselling years on where publishers typically market and categorize different kinds of books for this, but here is how I define each type of uf/PNR/low fantasy/etc. Many books can arguably fit in more than one category, but in my mind they always seem to fit better into one or the other.

UF elements: supernatural, urban setting, plot-driven (a.k.a. romance is not the main focus), and often a mystery.

examples:
Dead Witch Walking
Storm Front
Hounded
Moon Called

PNR elements: supernatural, urban setting, romance/character driven (they read much more like romance novels with paranormal, rather than paranormal with romance elements, if that makes sense), and "will they get together?" is usually the endgame.

Stray
Dark Lover
Night Embrace

Low Fantasy elements: magic systems, fantasy elements, can be either plot or character driven, but romance is secondary, urban setting (not necessarily in our world). It's easier to pick these out by analyzing what they're not (epic, high fantasy, etc).

The Magicians
Jhereg

YA PNR: Urban setting, paranormal/supernatural elements, relationship-driven. Since YA are almost always character and romance heavy I don't typically consider them uf. They're more their own distinct category because they usually have elements from both worlds.

There's no right way to define it, though. Every single source or list online has the books in different categories with different genres. I'm just going off how they're marketed in B&N and how I've come to define them, personally.

Niki Hawkes wrote: "Prince of Thorns"

Prince of Thorns would be either Grimdark, Epic or High not Low. It's set in a kingdom with knights, horses, villages, kings, princesses...........

Scott wrote: "Niki Hawkes wrote: "Prince of Thorns"

Prince of Thorns would be either Grimdark, Epic or High not Low. It's set in a kingdom with knights, horses, villages, kings, princesses.........."

You're probably right. I pulled that one off of an online list because I was having a brain fart on examples. I haven't actually read it lol.

Could PNR be in a non-UF setting? It could easily be a steampunk setting for instance. I like being able to label different things that cross platforms each item.

Scott wrote: "Niki Hawkes wrote: "Prince of Thorns"

Prince of Thorns would be either Grimdark, Epic or High not Low. It's set in a kingdom with knights, horses, villages, kings, princesses.........."

And actually, I'd love a new thread that discusses the distinction between the different types of fantasy (non urban/paranormal) because that's something I've only recently become aware of differentiating. I knew about high and low, but I'd never heard grimdark before joining GR. I'd love to get insight on how to categorize those as I'm reading them.

Niki Hawkes wrote: "You're probably right. I pulled that one off of an online list because I was having a brain fart on examples. I haven't actually read it lol. ."

Ok, I was wondering. It's definitely a cross of the ones I named.

Scott wrote: "Could PNR be in a non-UF setting? It could easily be a steampunk setting for instance. I like being able to label different things that cross platforms each item."

I'm interpreting PNR as paranormal romance. did you mean just straightforward paranormal?

Assuming you meant the former: If it's non-uf, then that makes me think its also non-paranormal, so then it becomes a fantasy romance (shelved in romance) instead of a pnr. I've read a few like this, and the distinction between fantasy and romance fantasy is what's driving the plot. Steampunk is a sub-genre in its own right, but definitely picks up more of a fantasy vibe than an uf one in my eyes (based entirely on just the ones I've read).

Niki Hawkes wrote: "Scott wrote: "Could PNR be in a non-UF setting? It could easily be a steampunk setting for instance. I like being able to label different things that cross platforms each item."

If it's non-uf, th..."

So a vampire story told in Victorian era England where the princess of England falls for Svenn the Nordic Vampire wouldn't be PNR? That makes no sense to me. It would fit into both Steampunk and PNR.

Almost all Grimdark is a subcategory of Epic.

Niki Hawkes wrote: "And actually, I'd love a new thread that discusses the distinction between the different types of fantasy (non urban/paranormal) because that's something I've only recently become aware of differentiating. I knew about high and low, but I'd never heard grimdark before joining GR. I'd love to get insight on how to categorize those as I'm reading them.."

Actually that's my plan but I don't want a dozen of these starting at once. I was going to introduce a bunch slowly. Every day or every other depending upon activity.

Scott wrote: "Niki Hawkes wrote: "And actually, I'd love a new thread that discusses the distinction between the different types of fantasy (non urban/paranormal) because that's something I've only recently beco..."

That makes sense. I'm looking forward to it. :) I need another categorization fix. I'm starting to get twitchy.

I've also started hearing about flintlock fantasy...just to throw another label into the mix. GR lists as examples:

Promise of Blood

The Thousand Names

I know the Tales of the Ketty Jay series doesn't fall into the categories we are discussing here, but I really want to know what category everyone would put it in. It seems very steampunk like, but really it isn't because it's more advanced than that. I'm having a hard time deciding where to put it.

Scott wrote: "Niki Hawkes wrote: "Scott wrote: "Could PNR be in a non-UF setting? It could easily be a steampunk setting for instance. I like being able to label different things that cross platforms each item."..."

I don't know that it would necessarily be a paranormal ROMANCE (that would depend on what's driving the plot) but that example is definitely either paranormal or urban fantasy. To me it would be either uf or pnr, not fantasy. The vampire is the deciding factor - a supernatural element.

While we're on the subject, I've always thought of steampunk as a historical (usually 1920s era) with clockwork elements. Even fantasy with a 1920s feel with mechanics and black powder devices. What in your "Victorian era England where the princess of England falls for Svenn the Nordic Vampire" says steampunk to you?

Tammie wrote: "I know the Tales of the Ketty Jay series doesn't fall into the categories we are discussing here, but I really want to know what category everyone would put it in. It seems very steampunk like, but..."

fantasy with steampunk elements? kind of like waking fire?

I changed my comment about to clarify, but you were probably already reasponding to it. I wanted to ask are you defining PNR as paranormal romance or just paranormal? I've been interpreting it as the former. I think this might be where our confusion is.

There are a lot of steampunk fantasies that are set in Victorian England.

Tammie wrote: "There are a lot of steampunk fantasies that are set in Victorian England."

Ah, okay. Do they have the clockwork element?

Veronica wrote: "I've also started hearing about flintlock fantasy...just to throw another label into the mix. GR lists as examples:

Promise of Blood

[book:Th..."

flintlock fantasy is a category I most definitely haven't explored yet lol.

Niki Hawkes wrote: "Tammie wrote: "I know the Tales of the Ketty Jay series doesn't fall into the categories we are discussing here, but I really want to know what category everyone would put it in. It seems very stea..."

I suppose that works. It feels more advanced than The Waking Fire. The Waking Fire feels more like flintlock to me, although its more advanced that flintlock with the types of guns it incorporates. Good grief it can get confusing when you start trying to include all the subcategories!

Tammie wrote: "Niki Hawkes wrote: "Tammie wrote: "I know the Tales of the Ketty Jay series doesn't fall into the categories we are discussing here, but I really want to know what category everyone would put it in..."

lol, you know you've hit superfandom when the distinctions start to matter haha.

You know, maybe waking fire is a fantasy with both steampunk and flintlock.

So, Ketty Jay: a fantasy with leveled-up steampunk? lol