A Game of Thrones discussion

What are everyone's thoughts regarding this theory?

I believe it. Eddard finds her in a "Bed of Blood" I believe. I think the was dying giving birth. I also believe in the theory that L really loved R. I believe she fled from Robert.

It would also mean that Ned was never unfaithful which i desperately want to be true!

man I wish I hadn't read this, now I really want it to be true, but Im only three books in :(

I had to google like a curious person. I figured the wrong R, and now I hope it isn't true ._.! I don't want to ruin it for any others though D:

This is the most beautiful part about the "R+L=J" theory. You do not get it spoiled by reading the title, unless you curiously google it.

If it had been the R you were referring to, Ned would not have had to hide it. J being the read R's kid, he would have been in great danger, because the other R wanted the whole bloodline dead. He would not have had accepted keeping J alive.

that was my theory from the beginning XDDDD
if the R stands for the other R who isn't the R that we know from book 1.

because L said "promisse me" to the other so this might be promisse that you will protect my child

And it makes sense i think.... but I've read all the books and they never say that that theory is true...

That's kind of what theory means. Martin is a sub-textual ... lets say person. He does not spell out what is going on. He wants you to make the mental effort. The books never explicitly say, that Renley and Loras were having a relationship. The show does though ... so if that was a theory before, it is fact now.

Daniel wrote: "I believe it. Eddard finds her in a "Bed of Blood" I believe. I think the was dying giving birth. I also believe in the theory that L really loved R. I believe she fled from Robert."

Love is a powerful word. I know they were friendly and flirtatious, but I think she would've run off with anyone who was genteel. She just really didn't want to marry Robert. She knew of his pig nature and didn't want to become Cersei.

I so believe that Jon is the son of Rheagar and Lyanna based on the fact that Ned is very honorable. The "promise me, Ned" from Lyanna must have been to protect her son; Jon from I'm guessing Robert because Robert hates Rheagar and would have killed Jon just for being Rheagar's son. That is something I can believe that Ned would do. Ned was disgusted when he learned what happened to Rheagar's two children and couldn't let anything happen to his child. So he claimed him as his child.
Lyanna died in a “bed of blood” which is often linked to childbirth.
The only person alive who knows the truth is Howland Reed since he was there with Ned when Lyanna died. So he would know if Jon is really the son of Lyanna.

Kiri wrote: "I had to google like a curious person. I figured the wrong R, and now I hope it isn't true ._.! I don't want to ruin it for any others though D:"

I dont think any discussions on this theory could ruin it for anyone as its just a theory really, nothing has been confirmed yet so its not like its a spoiler. I would say discuss away!!

One of my friends told me about this theory recently and i will say that it makes sense, with the W"bed of blood" and promise that she had Ned to do.

Then, Jon would be the true heir to the throne and not a bastard, at that: a Targaryen, indeed.This would change the whole prospect on the matter.

Would he be the hair? Depends on the rule of succession really. Rhaegar was not married to Lyanna. So Jon is a bastard no matter what. Bastards cannot have a better claim than true blooded heirs.

I am not going to spoil the books for you, Maria, for these books especially, that is unforgivable :-)

Rhaegar already had his other "2 heads", right? In tha capacity, he would be a Blackfire.

Oh, i seem to remember that my friend´s theory also includes a secret marriage with Lyanna - so, that´s why she says that he would be the genuine article. That when they refer to "going to the pleasure tower" or along those lines, that could be suggesting a honeymoon of some sort, that was kept secret after the deaths of Rhaegar and his wives and children, Lyanna and the crowning of Robert.

Maria wrote: "One of my friends told me about this theory recently and i will say that it makes sense, with the W"bed of blood" and promise that she had Ned to do.

Then, Jon would be the true heir to the throne..."

He would still be a bastard. But he would be a royal bastard.

Would the bastard son of the heir to the throne have a better claim over a sibling of the heir to the throne?

There would have been a surviving septon, who would have married R+L. This would have been big news and certainly Eddard would know. This marriage should have come up by now.

Nikki wroute:"Would the bastard son of the heir to the throne have a better claim over a sibling of the heir to the throne?"

Normally to have a claim to the throne is required a legal birth, so the speak, and J birth it's not acknowledged as been a legal one, even been a royal bastard, he's still a bastard.

It's like in Monaco, our present time. Prince Albert II of Monaco have two older children, illegitimate children with no claim to the throne, so the legal heir to the throne would be those born of his marriage to his wife Charlene.

In a scenario in which he and his wife fail to have any children, the two illegitimates still have no right to the throne, his sister, princess Carolina, would be his legal heir to the throne, followed to his nephew Andrea, the first born of Carolina. As you can see, the two older children have no legal right to the throne and I believe is the same with J, if R+L=J.

For this same reason, Stannis Baratheon believes he have the right claim to the throne of the 7 kingdoms, since there isn't legitimate sons from Robert Baratheon. And the reason Eddard Stark changed Robert's last words in his will, writing: "my heir" instead of "my son Joffrey ". He believed " The throne by rights passes to Lord Stannis, the elder of Robert's two brothers." .

My question is: who have the rightful claim to the throne, Stannis or Daenerys? (since both are legal heir).

Daniel wroute: “There would have been a surviving septon, who would have married R+L. This would have been big news and certainly Eddard would know. This marriage should have come up by now.”


But don't forget that he was already married with that girl from Dorne, so the marriage hardly would be legal, even in front of a septon. So, even if R+L=J, the heir to the throne would still be Daenerys (following the family tree of R).

I think that R+L=J theory could be true,and I agree with argumentation discussed before and I can add that there are three dragons, for three Targaryen I suppose..One dragon is vacant..it could be J's one..even if it was better to give him Drogon, the black one

Mary Ann wrote: "My question is: who have the rightful claim to the throne, Stannis or Daenerys? (since both are legal heir)."

Technically Daenerys doesn't have the best claim to the throne anymore if (view spoiler)[Aegon really is Aegon. He would be the heir as he was Rheagar's son. (hide spoiler)]

Nikki wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "My question is: who have the rightful claim to the throne, Stannis or Daenerys? (since both are legal heir)."

Technically Daenerys doesn't have the best claim to the throne anymo..."

Sorry, I'm trying not to read spoilers. I'm afraid that if I start I will not be able to stop lol

I love this theory. Eddard Stark's character is designed in a way that makes his betrayal unlikely. So, to me, it's an alleged treason, until prove in concrete. The author will have to describe it in detail so I can believe it, lol.

I'm glad I hid that spoiler then :)

Which book are you on?

Nikki wrote: "I'm glad I hid that spoiler then :)

Which book are you on?"

yes, :)


I stopped reading there about five years ago, in the third book, because I wasn't liking all the bad things that happened to my favorite characters (I love the Starks :)). But this year, a friend made ​​me see the first serie, so I went back and start reading them again. I just read the first book last week and I am now in the second, I hope to get to the end of the fifth before the sixth book hit newsstands. (Excuse my English, I'm not a native)

Your English was perfect don't worry! I am totally with you about the Starks. I hated how all the good guys seemed to be losing but it does start to turn around and I enjoyed the books immensely! I hope you enjoy them as much as I did :)

Daniel wrote: "There would have been a surviving septon, who would have married R+L. This would have been big news and certainly Eddard would know. This marriage should have come up by now."

Yes, but everybody who could have knowned, is dead, at the present time...but it´s tottaly possible, isn´t it? The Dragon had 3 heads, after all - he was already married, for sure, but the Targaryens were believers in multiple marriage (spelling). And wouldn´t that be a great turn of events? The bastard that was looked down by Cat Stark, beying a legitimate and a Targaryen, no less! What a slapp with good leather gloves it would be...

Daniel wrote: "I believe it. Eddard finds her in a "Bed of Blood" I believe. I think the was dying giving birth. I also believe in the theory that L really loved R. I believe she fled from Robert."
Don't you think Robert became what he was BECAUSE Lyanna died? It's pretty obvious she was the love of his life. The murder of Ned's father and brother along with the kidnapping of Lyanna were the triggers of the rebellion. Had she not been taken by Rhaegar, she would have married Robert and become the Lady of Storm's End. The Rebellion would never have happened, and Rhaegar would have become king after his father.

There is 2 different things to consider here: The claim and the dragon riding:
For the claim it is important to to be a legal child.
I don't think the dragons are going to bother looking into legal issues. If you have Targaryen blood, you are qualified to ride ;)

@Mary Ann: the only time frame was between the Sack of King's Landing and Eddard finding L. Elia dies at the Sack of King's Landing. R is a widower.

@Gwen: I do not think your theory about Robert is true. He has bastard sons all up and down the Eyrie. Those are from way back. Robert was always promiscuous.

@Daniel would that mean that J could be proven a Targaryen if he is able to ride one if the dragons?

In the beginning I had the idea, that J could be Unburnt, too. Unfortunately that is not true, as we know from the incident at Jeor Mormont's tower.

There is another issue that makes me doubtful, as to whether or not he is going to ride a dragon. If you read ADWD, you know what I mean.

But otherwise, the dragons might be bound to House Targaryen.
But there is another person, who might be able to see the past and figure out, who J is.

Daniel wrote: "There is 2 different things to consider here: The claim and the dragon riding:
For the claim it is important to to be a legal child.
I don't think the dragons are going to bother looking into legal..."

You are forgetting that they are ALL young children. NONE of them are older that the start of the rebellion, ie before Lyanna was taken.

He was 19, when the war started and had a bastard daughter, Mya Stone. Lyanna commented, that Robert would never keep to one bed.
Game of thrones, Chapter 35 and awoiaf on Robert

She knew the kind of guy he was. Also in my experience, this is how the real world works as well. People do not change. You don't at some point wake up one morning and start sleeping with everything that moves. This is a character trait he had and he acted on it from the very beginning.

I think that Lyanna knew what a slob Robert was, and in fact must have been less than thrilled to become his wife. That is were the secret marriage theory might be inserted - in that ime frame between the Sack os Kingslanding and the kidnaping of Lyanna. My friend reckons there was a love story between them, based on that theory and the fact that he crowned her Queen of Beauty and Love, at the tournament.

Nikki wrote: "Your English was perfect don't worry! I am totally with you about the Starks. I hated how all the good guys seemed to be losing but it does start to turn around and I enjoyed the books immensely! I..."

I enjoy them also and I'm so hoping for things to start to getting better :)

I love happy ending and it makes me apprehensive all the time that it might not happen, but i enjoy them even better (it's a first for me :))

Mary Ann wrote "I love happy ending"
I'm the opposite in that regard. I think a story has more meaning to it, when it has an unhappy end. And Martin does not disappoint in that regard ;)
The "Queen of Love and Beauty" thing is a good indicator for them being in love. This I do not doubt. But married? Before wandering off to Dorne? Wouldn't Oberyn and Doran have been pissed? And again, if they did get married, that would be common knowledge. Rhaegar was heir apparent, people would talk about that.

Well I just have one point to make here. Is it even possible for this to have happened? Was Lyanna away long enough to have a baby before Ned came looking for her? I just don't know if its possible based on the amount of time that passed. Jon would have had to been born before she died for it to work.

Daniel wrote: "In the beginning I had the idea, that J could be Unburnt, too. Unfortunately that is not true, as we know from the incident at Jeor Mormont's tower.

Yeah this gives me more evidence its not true.

Mary Ann wrote: "Nikki wroute:"Would the bastard son of the heir to the throne have a better claim over a sibling of the heir to the throne?"

Normally to have a claim to the throne is required a legal birth, so t..."

I would say both Stannis and Daenerys have equal claims from different lines. But I think Daenerys is stronger because of her being a Targaryen.

Daniel wrote: "There is 2 different things to consider here: The claim and the dragon riding:
For the claim it is important to to be a legal child.
I don't think the dragons are going to bother looking into legal..."

yes, you have some valid points, but I don't think there has been time for a wedding there, but everything is possible. He was indeed a widower after the Sack of King's Landing. Now I gonna have to explore a J not quite bastard. It would be so cool if this theory come out to be true.


I agree with you, in the theory that L really loved R and that she fled from Robert, because she had no love for him.

And yes, there are things you can not change in a man, unfortunately.

The War of the Usurper took about a year. It started with R+L running of (we think). It ended with Eddard finding L. So L had 2-3 months to get pregnant.

The Unburnt thing would have been nice, but Viserys is not Unburnt and he is Targaryen all the way - meaning two Targaryen parents. And yes, the theory is, that L died giving birth.

Daniel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote "I love happy ending"
I'm the opposite in that regard. I think a story has more meaning to it, when it has an unhappy end. And Martin does not disappoint in that regard ;)
The "Queen..."

Happy ending doesn't, necessarily, make a story meaningless.

But I'll continue to enjoy the story even if it doesn't come to have a happy ending

Daniel, you have read all the published books, so far, right? Does this mean that R and L´s love or not and J´s provenance are not setled - Uncle George has left everyone to guess as they choose, while he writes the 5th book? Tip my hat to him....

He is even writing the 6th book and has not yet lost a word about this issue. I'm guessing it will all be in the 7th book. Tying all the loose ends he can.

Sorry, i always get mixed up - because of the 10 books of the portuguese version.

I agreed with this theory for a while, but now I think the R (either one) is too obvious and am voting for someone else.

I don't think Ned Stark would have hidden that from his wife. Catelyn would have obviously treated him better if that was the case and Ned would have known this. As for who has a better to claim to the Iron Throne? Stannis of Dany? Read the books and you might be surprised at what you find . . .

I think Ned Stark would have kept it a secret out of honor, because he may have promised Lyanna the secrecy (if, perhaps, we know nothing) and maybe also to just keep Catelyn out of the mess?

Laura wrote: "I think Ned Stark would have kept it a secret out of honor, because he may have promised Lyanna the secrecy (if, perhaps, we know nothing) and maybe also to just keep Catelyn out of the mess?"

Agree to that! If Ned promised Lyanna that he would keep the secret of Jon´s descent, he knew that the fewer people knew, it, the better.