Reading the 20th Century discussion

I don't remember any lists of clothes or food. What sticks in my mind is the politics and the historical drama. Just a wonderful book.

I would like to try Wolf Hall - I've been meaning to do so for ages, so a group read would spur me on to finally do it.

Nigeyb wrote: "I don't remember any lists of clothes or food. What sticks in my mind is the politics and the historical drama. Just a wonderful book."

it obviously didn't get you down then.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "What does "a marmite read" mean?"


Marmite is a British food spread produced by Unilever. Marmite is made from yeast extract, a by-product of beer brewing. Marmite is a sticky, dark brown food paste with a distinctive, powerful flavour, which is extremely salty. This distinctive taste is represented in the marketing slogan: "Love it or hate it."

Such is its prominence in British popular culture that the product's name is often used as a metaphor for something that is an acquired taste or tends to polarise opinions.

Nigeyb wrote: "Such is its prominence in British popular culture that the product's name is often used as a metaphor for something that is an acquired taste or tends to polarise opinions. "

Thanks. I thought it might have something to do with a lack of reality and I didn't want that to be the case in the context where it was used. I first came across the item in the Cazalet Chronicles, where rationing made this a substitute for butter.

I believe the Australians call it Vegemite

Vegemite is distinct from Marmite - similar, but nowhere near as tasty

I much preferred the books to the TV series - a series can just touch on the novel, but it doesn't have the depth.

Susan wrote: "I much preferred the books to the TV series - a series can just touch on the novel, but it doesn't have the depth."

I would agree in general, but we will have to agree to differ in this case.

Fair enough. I don't often watch TV - I thought Wolf Hall was good, but it condensed two books into one, so, obviously, much was lost.

I read Bring Up the Bodies a month or so ago but might be up for a buddy (re)read by Feb before the final part of the trilogy.

Hurrah! I will certainly re-read, but there is a long while to go yet. Still, good to have the book, finally come up for pre-order. Now, if Mark Lewisohn could, finally, publish the second part of his Beatles trilogy, my cup would be full...

I will read the new one, but I'm not sure about reading the other two again. It will depend what my TBR pile is looking like at the time.

Well, I will run a thread anyway - as a reminder and because I wish to re-read them before getting to the new one. I know the Tudor's are well out of our time frame, but never mind :)

The first one was published in our time frame and the second was mostly written in it.

We have added a new book to our Buddy Read list, which was suggested on the Len Deighton favourite authors thread.

Mid-October - Berlin Game by Len Deighton (Buddy Read)

Berlin Game

Long-awaited reissue of the first part of the classic spy trilogy, GAME, SET and MATCH, when the Berlin Wall divided not just a city but a world.

East is East and West is West – and they meet in Berlin…

He was the best source the Department ever had, but now he desperately wanted to come over the Wall. ‘Brahms Four’ was certain a high-ranking mole was set to betray him. There was only one Englishman he trusted any more: someone from the old days.

So they decided to put Bernard Samson back into the field after five sedentary years of flying a desk.

The field is Berlin.

The game is as baffling, treacherous and lethal as ever…

Everyone is welcome.

Susan wrote: "We have added a new book to our Buddy Read list, which was suggested on the Len Deighton favourite authors thread.

Mid-October - Berlin Game by Len Deighton (Buddy Read)"

My copy of Berlin Game has just arrived, and in plenty of time for mid-October

It's the first book of....
The Bernard Samson triple trilogy

These ten novels - three trilogies and a single prequel of sorts - are Deighton's magnum opus, a spy fiction classic which updated the genre at the height of the Cold War and perfectly replicated the tensions and uncertainties of the Cold War in the 'eighties in the relationship between top field agent Bernard Samson and his wife, Fiona. What follows ia a story on an epic scale with numerous story arcs and hidden character flaws revealed over ten books.

http://www.deightondossier.net/Books/...

Nigeyb wrote: "Susan wrote: "We have added a new book to our Buddy Read list, which was suggested on the Len Deighton favourite authors thread.

Mid-October - Berlin Game by Len Deighton (Buddy Read)"

My copy of..."

I loved that trilogy. I even read the prequel Winter: A Novel of a Berlin Family by the same author. Did you know it was dramatized?

Looking forward to giving Len Deighton another try. I think I read Winter many years ago now, but I can't remember much about it.

Kirsten #EndGunViolence wrote: "I loved that trilogy. I even read the prequel Winter: A Novel of a Berlin Family by the same author. Did you know it was dramatized?"

That's encouraging. Thanks Kirsten.

And no, I didn't know it had been dramatised

Susan wrote: "Looking forward to giving Len Deighton another try. "

I'm also feeling enthused Susan. This will be my third Deighton and, having loved the first two, cannot wait to get stuck into this one.

That set of trilogies/series is my favorite spy story ever. I find Deighton both funny and interesting - just a good read. Not a heavy read, maybe not "important" but man - the 9 books of the story + Winter (only read Winter if you just can't get enough of this series) really made me love espionage novels. I've been chasing this high ever since.

Ella wrote: "I've been chasing this high ever since"


Wow. That's encouraging. Can't wait.

I've never read any Len Deighton - it's more Mr Sue's cup of tea than mine - but we do have a copy of Berlin Game kicking around so I might join in with you. I do like a good espionage yarn...

Splendid. This is getting better and better 😀

I’ve never read anything by Len Deighton either but this definitely sounds interesting. I might try to get a copy and join in as well.

Even better still 🥳

Ah, those internet rabbit holes... I've just been trying to find a name that had escaped me. A female writer of spy fiction. (Turned out to be Helen MacInnes!) In my search I came across this Guardian article which made me think about why I like some spy/espionage stories but not others.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

She says:
"For me, there are two abiding strengths in the genre. In those traditional capers written by John Buchan and Fleming, there is a fantasy about the possibility of individual agency, of living a life in which your own desires – for sex, for violence, for anarchic behaviour – are realised, along with almost superhuman abilities to evade capture or death. While others go about their lives in ignorance, only you can see further and escape the traps that others lay for you.

But in those darker and grittier tales, such as those told by Greene or Le Carré, the very fact of being a spy can make escape impossible. You are not only watching, you are also being watched. In these narratives, everyone’s latent sense of paranoia is made real, and far from being able to escape the traps laid for him or her, so often the spy’s own actions become the final trap. When you enter a book such as Le Carré’s The Spy Who Came in from the Cold or a film such as Francis Ford Coppola’s The Conversation (1974), you find yourself entering a spy’s life where the dream of true escape or of full knowledge is shown to be just that, a dream."

I definitely prefer the first category - I like the adventure, and the idea of our hero relying on their own intelligence and resourcefulness, but I don't like the grim pessimism of the second kind, even if it's more realistic - or perhaps exactly because it's more realistic. I can read the newspapers for realism after all - I read books to get away from all that!

In the article Natasha Walter talks about the role of women in spy fiction. It's always troubled me that women are often just 'fluff' rather than being central to the plot. That's why I was trying to remember Helen MacInnes, because she created a strong female spy character. Much as I enjoy the plotting of the James Bond novels, I cringe at the blatant sexism (and racism) of those times. As Natasha Walter says though, spy fiction is changing these days, to reflect the role of women like Stella Rimington, who headed MI5 and who incidentally has written spy fiction herself. At Risk

That's a great quote Sue, and I enjoyed your reading your post - thanks

Whilst Bond is perfectly fine, my preference is firmly in the second category, that of Greene, Le Carré etc.

I haven’t read any Bond yet but I do love Graham Greene and enjoyed the Le’ Carré I read. I think I would prefer more realism in this genre.

I think Deighton is more on the second type Sue mentioned above, but there are female spies, and for me - best of all - there is real humor in his books. But he's certainly pessimistic about the life of spies. There is little to no Bond-style glamor in his books, But there is love, friendship, breaking rules etc. I may have to reread these with you, and I was just trying to finish one of his other sets of books!

I haven't read all that many spy books overall, probably not enough to choose a type, but I do love Graham Greene, although I have read and enjoyed the Bond books in the past.

I tend to find the main problem for me with some spy novels (and films, in particular), is that I struggle to follow the plots and work out what on earth is going on!

Sue, I've only read two books by Deighton. Both are very clearly in the second category. No glamour whatsoever - but plenty of bureaucracy, boring leg work and just a bit of violence, usually of the grim and functional variety.

Ella wrote: "I may have to reread these with you, and I was just trying to finish one of his other sets of books! "

Which series are you trying to finish Ella?

I'm working my way through Len Deighton's Harry Palmer novels. Although the name of the series has been unofficially referred to as the “Harry Palmer” series, the protagonist is unnamed.

Confusingly the Deighton Dossier website does not include the final two books in the list below, so I am unsure if these really are Palmer books or not.

I think I trust the Deighton Dossier more than orderofbooks.com but I added them just in case.

I've read the first two so far - and am looking forward to continuing with the series

The Ipcress File (1962)
Horse Under Water (1963)
Funeral in Berlin (1964)
The Billion Dollar Brain (1966)
An Expensive Place to Die (1967)
Spy Story (1974)
Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Spy (1976)

Here’s my review of The Ipcress File (1962) by Len Deighton

Here’s my review of Horse under Water (1963) by Len Deighton

Plenty more Len Deighton chat on our dedicated author thread...

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Judy wrote: "I tend to find the main problem for me with some spy novels (and films, in particular), is that I struggle to follow the plots and work out what on earth is going on!"

I think we all share that reaction Judy

I was very confused by The Ipcress File however went with it and it all came together in the end, sort of. I just enjoyed the character, the wonderful writing, and the cynical perspective of the world of espionage. It's actually a bleak book which is rooted in the day to day bureaucracy of running a department which makes very different to Bond. The content, and the working class protangonist, make for a brilliant counterpoint on the page (and in the cinema, subsequently) to Ian Fleming's James Bond who represents the establishment. It is actually the anti-Bond.

I found Ipcress quite confusing. I have never liked Bond - cannot bear any of the films, but, haven't read the books admittedly. I think the Slough House series has good, female characters. I am much more on the side of reality and am interested to discover more Deighton.

I have glanced at, "Berlin Game," and have been trying not to get sucked in, as I have other books I need to finish first. Loved the introduction, where Deighton writes that authors are often pushed to emphasise action over characterisation (which transformed books into film scripts) and his comments on the way some writing is not a way to treat your readers unless, "you don't care about them; and in that case you should be writing literary novels!" Tongue in cheek, but very amusing.

Latest buddy read is The Hours Before Dawn by Celia Fremlin...


Celia Fremlin was a writer of mystery novels. Her first novel, The Hours Before Dawn, was published in 1958, won a Mystery Writers of America Edgar Allan Poe award and with it she launched her own special style of mystery and horror, combined with evocative descriptions of married women's lives in the 1950s. Why wouldn't anyone want to read and discuss it?

Remember, if there's a book you'd like to read and discuss with the group, and anyone else is interested, then we'll add it to our list and set up a discussion thread.


Here's all forthcoming buddy reads....

Mid-January - Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel
Mid-January - God is an Englishman (The Swann family saga Book 1) by R.F. Delderfield
Mid-February - Bring Up the Bodies by Hilary Mantel
Mid-February - Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian
Mid-February - Ironopolis by Glen James Brown
Mid-February - The Hours Before Dawn by Celia Fremlin
Mid-March - The Mirror & the Light by Hilary Mantel
Mid-March - Riceyman Steps by Arnold Bennett
Mid-April - The Soul of Kindness by Elizabeth Taylor
Mid-April - Friends and Relations by Elizabeth Bowen
Mid-May - Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore - or the Stalin biography of your choice

Thanks for this, Nigeyb. I think I had not noticed the discussion of adding the Elizabeth Bowen in April and have ordered a copy.

I anticipate the Bowen will be very popular - she has many admirers in this group

I am a huge fan of Elizabeth Bowen and have never tried Elizabeth Taylor, so April is, already, looking an enticing month - although there are so many great buddy reads listed already to look forward to throughout the first months of the new year.

We have some more Elizabeth Bowen listed for future buddy reads:

In July/August, we have decided to read:
The Death of the Heart

Later in the year: Sept/Oct, we plan to read Bowen's biography. The one most mentioned was:
Elizabeth Bowen
However, members can also choose whichever biography is easiest to get hold of an are welcome to join in.

In addition, to our exciting Elizabeth Bowen buddy reads, the Wolf Hall trilogy has led to myself, and Roman Clodia, decided to buddy read a biography of Katherine (Catherine?) Howard. RC is intending to read Katherine Howard: The Tragic Story of Henry VIII's Fifth Queen while I have Young and Damned and Fair: The Life and Tragedy of Catherine Howard at the Court of Henry VIII. We will be starting this next week and, should anyone wish to join in with the biography of their choice, they are very welcome.

There is an Audible Deal of the Day today - Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties

I was thinking we hadn't had a true crime buddy read in a while - any takers?

Also, RC suggested The Goldfinch by the wonderful Donna Tartt

The Goldfinch is VERY long, so just bear that in mind. However, shall we fix up a month for a nice, 'big book'?

Susan wrote:


"I was thinking we hadn't had a true crime buddy read in a while - any takers for Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties?"

I'm in Susan - I'll add this reply to the True Crime thread too. For the archive you understand

OK, sounds great.

When shall we do it?

As it's an audiobook, and so much easier to fit in, I'm totally flexible.


Perhaps July? But really whenever suits you best Susan

Works for me. July it is.

Looking forward to it.

I'll sort out the admin soon - see you in July

OK. Sounds great. Thanks, Nigeyb.

We have had a sudden spurt of new buddy read suggestions lately, so I thought I would update our forthcoming reads here:

July
Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties
The Death of the Heart


August
Ride the Pink Horse
The Queen's Necklace


September
The Portrait
Elizabeth Bowen, an Estimation (or the Bowen biography of your choice)


October
Life Among the Savages
Chanel's Riviera: Life, Love and the Struggle for Survival on the Côte d’Azur, 1930–1944


November
Look At Me
Gorky Park


December
The Long Shadow
The Goldfinch

I am sure you will agree that we have some great titles planned. As ever, everyone is very welcome to join in, whether you have read the books or just want to chat.

Exciting times Susan


There really is something for everyone

And remember, if there's something you'd like to read, then suggest it. It only takes two people for a buddy read to work - and that discussion often inspires more people to get involved too

A few of us have been discussing possibly reading a Russian novel as a buddy read early next year.

I suggested the two books below and Susan and Alwynne both said they might be interested. Is anyone else interested in a buddy read of either of these early next year, probably February or March?

Which one would you prefer to go for and what timing would work better for you?

They both look like eccentric/demanding writers, so might be best to take a peek inside before deciding which one appeals more! Petersburg is much cheaper on Kindle (the Penguin version based on the full Russian text is £2.99) but is also much longer, 600 pages plus.


: Petersburg by Andrei Bely, first published in 1913 - it's said to be a Modernist masterpiece.

Andrei Bely's Petersburg is a colourful evocation of Russia's capital during the short, turbulent period of the first socialist revolution in 1905. Considered Bely's masterpiece, the story follows Nikolai Ableukhov's journey as he is caught up in the revolutionary politics of those seminal days; exploring themes of history, identity, and family, the novel sees the young Russian chased through the misty Petersburg streets, tasked with planting a bomb intended to kill a government official - his own father. History, culture and politics are blended and juxtaposed; weather reports, current news, fashions and psychology jostle together with people from Petersburg in this literary triumph.

Another is Envy by Yury Olesha, first published in 1927. This one is a lot shorter.

One of the delights of Russian literature, a tour de force that has been compared to the best of Nabokov and Bulgakov, Yuri Olesha's novella brings together cutting social satire, slapstick humor, and a wild visionary streak. Andrei is a model Soviet citizen, a swaggeringly self-satisfied mogul of the food industry who intends to revolutionize modern life with mass-produced sausage. Nikolai is a loser. Finding him drunk in the gutter, Andrei gives him a bed for the night and a job as a gofer. Nikolai takes what he can, but that doesn't mean he's grateful.