Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

This is something I've been thinking about the last couple of days - what is the difference, if there is a difference, between "High" Fantasy and "Epic" Fantasy? In my mind, I have an idea of what the distinction is, but it doesn't always apply.

For instance - Stormlight Archive, to me, is Epic Fantasy.

High Fantasy is a little bit harder to define, as many of the things I would consider high fantasy would also fit into the "Epic" category. LOTR is one of these, as is Wheel of Time.

I know we talked about defining urban fantasy a month or two ago, so I figured I'd put this out there =].

I think Epic Fantasy is a matter of scale... global vs local

I would recommend watching this video Liam as he talks about high and low fantasy yes there is a low and it is interesting sinc he says a song of ice and fire is low fantasy but I would give the video a watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyfxR...

You need to remember is that books are very difficult to define into genres as they could be a mixture of genres and subgenres for example if we go by what the guy in the video said Stormlight archive cold be considered epic because of the huge scale it has but also high fantasy because the magic is important in the story as well the wildlife present and its the same for wheel of time and lord of the rings

At least that's what I think like I said when you start to label it becomes really difficult and I would probably watch all of this guys video because they are interesting

I've always thought the difference is scale where high fantasy focuses on a few characters whereas epic is many.

The Licanius Trilogy for instance is epic in the span of years but we're only seeing a few POVs and nearly all the events focus on those few. Still there's overlap because the story is dealing with thousands of year.

Malazan is the epitome of epic. Hundreds of thousands of years and hundreds of POVs. Granted some of those POVs are a paragraph but there's still over a hundred repeat POVs. Still some would put this in Grimdark, which is it.

Most are going to cover several branches. My last books was a Noir, Grimdark and Dystopian. It's hard to really lock most down to one.

I've wondered this distinction too. I've always used: if it feels epic, it's epic. lol

Scale is a good differentiator.

Epic definition:
A long poem, typically one derived from ancient oral tradition, narrating the deeds and adventures of heroic or legendary figures or the history of a nation.

So maybe in that context epic deals more with the type of story as well.

I always felt that the difference is the focus. High fantasy focusing on world building and plot, while Epic fantasy focuses on world building and characters.

Take for example ASOIAF compared to LOTR. In ASOIAF there are 1000 characters (maybe a slight exaggeration here) all with their own sub-plots that may or may not converge with the overarching plot. In LOTR there is a distinct and singular (though complex) plot that all of our characters are a part of. Using my definition I see ASOIAF as an Epic fantasy while LOTR is a High fantasy.

At least that's how I define them....

In my understanding, epic from Latin and Greek épos (speech, tale, song) is mainly about the forces of good and the forces of evil.

"You know the genre (it has heroes, it has magic, it has good resisting the evil and it is long) and I know the genre. What is more, I LOVE the genre and I do not live by bread alone but by the many words that proceed from the pens (keyboards) of epic fantasy writers. But what makes the fantasy epic? Not the settings, not the props I listed earlier, but the deeds of the main protagonists, their struggles, and journeys that the tale recounts, their choices that reshape the face of the world. It is not so much about pitched battles and flashing swords, constant action and cliffhangers of the many-layered and multi-stranded plot - these are merely derivatives of worlds and ages dying and being born."

What I thought was that High Fantasy is pretty much any and all fantasy that takes place in an imaginary world: LOTR, WoT, ASOIAF, Codex Alera, Memory Sorrow and Thorn, Corum, Elric, Shadowmarch, Narnia... All these have a completely fictional world in them and rely upon this world to tell their story.

Epic Fantasy is a subsection of Fantasy as a whole that overlaps quite considerably with High Fantasy. Usually, epic fantasy takes place in a made up world, though it really has no need. Epic Fantasy, I believe, is the subset of Fantasy that focuses on the highly heroic, think Iliad, Odyssey and Aeneid. The heroes are all larger-than-life and the villains could well be gods. Additionally, the scale tends to be much grander, where not just one country or region but nearly the entire world is at stake.

Just my thoughts. This definition has worked for me so far. Hope it helps :)

The scale of the story is the definition point that makes the most sense to me =]. I've just never been able to articulate it in that way.

Kingkiller would be High for sure, because it doesn't have the Epic, global scale of another book. It's mainly just telling the story of Kvothe. In that same sense, the Hobbit could be High fantasy, while the LOTR trilogy could fit into the Epic category.

Thanks guys!

According to http://bestfantasybooks.com/fantasy-g...

Epic Fantasy: The most popular type of fantasy today. Usually associated with High Fantasy. Epic fantasy usually includes a life or death struggle between good and evil, a large cast of characters, and multiple books. Most modern fantasy books are considered epic fantasy.
Some of the more recent popular epic fantasy books include Jordan's The Eye of the World , Martin's A Game of Thrones , and Brandon Sanderson's The Final Empire. Epic fantasy has been around for decades in the form of Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.

High Fantasy: A broad classification for fantasy. High fantasy sometimes refers to epic fantasy, but it can be it's own subgenre.
The classic definition for High Fantasy is a story that includes a well drawn world where magic follows a very specific set of rules. Those rules may be different from the real world, but they are consistent.
High Fantasy can include many themes like Coming of Age, Quests, and may be serious in tone or epic in scale.
Because High Fantasy is such a broad definition. Lord of the Rings would be considered the classic definition, but other works such as The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe are also High Fantasy.

According to these definitions, they're compatible within the same story which probably ads to the confusion.

Yanique wrote: "I always felt that the difference is the focus. High fantasy focusing on world building and plot, while Epic fantasy focuses on world building and characters.

Take for example ASOIAF compared to ..."

Yanique makes a good and clearly defined point.

We need a term for non-epic fantasy. Like cozy fantasy.

I always thought that high fantasy was what people who read YA call adult fantasy whereas people primarily in the adult based genres use terms like epic fantasy, urban, sword & sorcery, etc

@idiffer I like the idea of cozy fantasy. The ty0e that tells you about some magic world while the main character is sitting by the fire smoking a pipe. I'd say Bilbo narrating his adventures instead of living them.

Margret wrote: "I always thought that high fantasy was what people who read YA call adult fantasy whereas people primarily in the adult based genres use terms like epic fantasy, urban, sword & sorcery, etc"

This is what I always think too because I never call it high fantasy. Interesting to see different people's take on it.

idiffer wrote: "We need a term for non-epic fantasy. Like cozy fantasy."

This is great. We should have a cozy fantasy related challenge ;)

Jenna wrote: "idiffer wrote: "We need a term for non-epic fantasy. Like cozy fantasy."

This is great. We should have a cozy fantasy related challenge ;)"

What do you call The Lies of Locke Lamora and The Name of the Wind?

@Beste
You were quoting Jenna, but I'll put in my 2 cents + I sorta wanted to explain cozy fantasy anyway.
So dunno about Lamora, but Name of the wind fits into my category because it's from one POV and the action takes place in one location for large amounts of time. Um, I sorta wanted my category to be character-driven more than plot-driven, but right now I have a hard time judging this title in this regard, my bad memory.

Beste wrote: "Jenna wrote: "idiffer wrote: "We need a term for non-epic fantasy. Like cozy fantasy."

This is great. We should have a cozy fantasy related challenge ;)"

What do you call [book:The Lies of Locke ..."

I'd probably call both Epic Fantasy, but the first book in Gentleman Bastards has less of the magic of the later novels.. I don't really get picky about categorizing books, though.

I am just reading The Summer Tree and on the cover it says that it's the essence of high fantasy. ;)

I’ll be glad to see what you think of Fionavar Mayim. I loved it

Margret it totally sucked me in! I planned to do a chapter today and I'm already 5 chapters into the novel and it is hard to stop.

I just remember this one most breathtaking scene in book three. I still get chills thinking about it years after reading....

Or was it Book 2? Gah!

My distinction between the two is fairly simple and I think has been mentioned here. For me, high fantasy is anything that is not set on earth and involves some kind of magic. And epic fantasy is similar but larger in scope, usually with more povs and spanning a longer time frame. It also has to do with the way the world is built.

Epic fantasy is high fantasy in most cases, just on a large scale.

I've thought of it the same way, C.P.

Agree with Tammie too..

Yeah, I agree with Tammie as well.

Margret wrote: "I just remember this one most breathtaking scene in book three. I still get chills thinking about it years after reading...."

I don't want to hijack the thread, but Margret, Fionavar made to my most coveted shelf.