On the Southern Literary Trail discussion

Spoilers allowed here. Post a review or any feelings you have about the novel.

I have finished, but will not post my review here just yet, as I don't want to influence others who may have different opinions.

I have finished, and here are my final impressions, for whatever they're worth: This book was about death. It wasn't about the South. For starters, the name of the town. Milan??? And Sherman felt like a throw-in to me. He was not believable, but she needed a person of color. Verily could have been at least one-fourth of this book and been interesting. But McCullers took a strange path here. The pompous, bombastic "Judge." The conflicted teenager. The dying pharmacist. I believe her state of mind was jumbled while writing this, due to her own issues, and it showed. I feel she'd been abroad and in NY for so long during the writing of this, and dealt with so many personal issues, that she just wanted to reconnect with her roots, however inexpertly. I didn't enjoy this book, but I'm glad I read it. One of the more thought-provoking reads I've experienced, so thank you Doug.

Also, every one of these main characters were liars. They lied to themselves mainly, but the Judge and Sherman lied to everyone to increase their status with others. The only character that could be absolved for the things he did and thought was Jester, because he was 17 and stupid and naive. But a 17 year old kid who took flying lessons without his grandfather knowing about it? A black youth in the deep south in 1953 who talked and acted like Sherman? Where would he have had any role models to emulate? And where would he have gotten money to rent a house and fill it with expensive furniture like a grand piano, which he couldn't play, but apparently did at the end of the book? Too much here just didn't make sense, and maybe McCuller's physical condition was responsible for that, but her publisher should have intervened. O'Connor may have been catty, but she was right about this one. Still, like Chandler, I'm happy I read it, just to complete my reading of her novels.

a novel about the lonely desperation for validation.

...and lynching a dog too ??? Sure didn't see that coming.

I'm with you, glad I read this- but didn't love it.

by the end I wanted to treat it like a drinking game, taking a shot everytime those damned coca-cola stocks were mentioned.

It was difficult for me to believe the judge would have waited so long to cry and mourn the death of his son- when he seems like such a bratty manchild at every other turn. He didn't strike me as the type to deny himself anything, muchless a chance for any sort of outburst. ( he loved the scent of his own feces??)

Like Diane, I sort of don't know what to think of this now that it's over.

also... do you think it was McCullers intention to explore a homosexual bi-racial relationship and she got censored? Or was Jester just having a youthful "boycrush" on Sherman?

I think your drinking game would have helped this one. The sexual confusion of Jester was only implied, so maybe the publisher did quash that. His visit to the whorehouse was a strange scene though. His need to prove he could do it with a woman, even tho he felt nothing?

And if we'd played the drinking game every time the Judge used the word 'amanuensis,' we'd all have alcohol poisoning! That word's been ringing in my head all day.

My take on Jester is that he was confused about love and how to show it. His grandfather had called him 'darling' and 'Lambones' his whole life, but Jester wanted him to stop. He acknowledges that he loves Ted and buys him the golden football, but says he just wants to give Ted a gift and "impress himself upon him." When he kisses Sherman on the cheek, Sherman had just shared his horrible molestation experience, and Jester tells him "I only did that because I felt sorry for you." This line makes me think Jester never consciously considered himself homosexual: "If it turned out he was homosexual like men in the 'Kinsey Report,' Jester had vowed that he would kill himself." Jester desperately needed a friend, and I think that's what he wanted from Ted and Sherman: friendship and respect and attention.

And the dog scene certainly came out of left field. Sherman was a very strange character.

I’m not sure how to enter a conversation about this novel because I seem to have a completely different take on it. I think the most important and therefore most developed characters are J.T. Malone, Judge Clane and Jester Clane and that Sherman is purposefully left ambiguous by McCullers in order to serve as a foil for those other characters - much like The Mute was in The Heart is a Lonely Hunter.

Is Jester a gay character? Maybe it takes one to know one, but it seems clear as day to me that he is - just young and typically still in denial. Running to a woman to prove himself a man even though he feels nothing emotionally? Happens all the time with gay men who can’t deal with their true orientation. Some never face their truth. I think McCullers has Jester choose a prostitute instead of a girl-next-door character in order to emphasize the complete lack of emotional connection for Jester. That rang true for me.

Is Sherman a gay character? I don’t know too many heterosexual men who are into classical German Leider music and fancy home furnishings (his roomate’s, not his own), but I’m sure there are at least some out there in the world. I don’t think we’re supposed to be certain of Sherman’s sexuality at any rate. Again, I think he’s a foil for the other characters.

I don’t think McCullers was censored by anyone here and I think this novel is very much about The South.

I actually got quite a lot out of it and have more to say but I’m running late this morning. Will check in again another day...

I love these threads and conversations because sometimes they make me rethink my opinions. Sherman as a foil is a strange thought, because he was so over the top that he seemed to consume the story, but on the other hand, his death was handled almost as an afterthought, blow him up and get him out of the way, but no remorse or grief by the Judge or Jester. I do agree that Jester was a gay man (boy) in denial. My own opinion is that Malone was the character that didn't belong, a character inserted to move the plot along, except that the first and last chapters were about his coming death and his actual death. Maybe J.T. Malone represented the dying of the old south. The Judge was the past still kicking, and Jester and Sherman and Malone's wife were the new wave.

Diane wrote: "I love these threads and conversations because sometimes they make me rethink my opinions. Sherman as a foil is a strange thought, because he was so over the top that he seemed to consume the story..."

An over-the-top character for sure, Diane. When I describe him as a foil, I mean that the various other characters’ reactions to him seemed more important than his own presence as a character in the story - but that’s just my take on it. For Jester, he was a magnetic physical love interest (initially, anyhow). For Judge Clane he was nothing more than a good servant (even though he knew the story of his biological origin and either ignored or didn’t know what an awful servant he was). For Malone, he was something threatening/frightening (A new breed of man? Someone who could see inside his unsettled self and read his mind?).

Let me get back to you on Malone. I think he served a stronger purpose, but can’t quite figure out how to verbalize it. I do think you’re onto something there with his representing the dying of the Old South. Agree that Judge Clane is the Reactionary Conservative clinging desperately (simultaneously hilariously and sadly) to the past. As some still do....

Chandler, I didn’t mean to dismiss your point of view and hope it didn’t come across that way. I agree that it’s a strong meditation on death, but I also think it’s a strong exploration of and statement on Southern sensibilities. I also agree that it’s a bit jumbled and reflects McCullers’ own jumbled state at the end of her life, but I was forewarned and it didn’t bother me as much as it might have if I wasn’t expecting it. And yeah, I know: “amanuensis” and “phantasy” me to death why don’t you Miss Carson?

Dustin, I totally get your gripes too. I have other ones that I might get into later after others have finished reading, but they didn’t ruin it for me for some reason. Also, from your review, I’m glad I’m not a horny teenager anymore either!

Would love to hear Lawyer Mike’s insights at some point. Pretty please?

I still haven’t written a review or even rated this, but I will eventually. Cheers, all.

I've had to play hostess for the past 36 hours to folks looking for a free place to stay so they could hit the Carolina Panthers game last night, so I haven't been able to get back to this thread. Doug, put me in your hip pocket as 'a person not easily offended.' I'm in this group because these conversations expand my thinking. What I really meant to say, though, is that I felt this book was more about a theme - death - than about a place - the South. I just didn't put it very well. I much appreciate your personal take on Jester and Sherman. Diane, I love your thought about J.T. representing the death of the old South - brilliant! And yes, please weigh in on this one Lawyer Mike - we need your voice!

Lawyer Mike here, slowly tapping on a tablet. Green tea spilling on a laptop is disastrous. Sigh. Although I have begun a review it is not finished. But will be when my computer is repaired or replaced.

Doug, you and I have much the same opinion of CWH. Sherman serves as a foil to each of the central characters. For me, very clearly in regard to Jester and the old Judge. I actually didn't find Sherman too over the top. Raised in the Mullins home he could have acquired an education providing him with the skills he demonstrated. I was not surprised at his knowledge of the growing Civil Rights Movement. Consider the number of juvenile arrests made in lunch counter sit-ins during the time in which the novel is set. A reliable narrator? No. However, I cut him slack for so much of the truth about his identity has been withheld from him. Sherman is a classic McCullers Outcast who brought Faulkner's Joe Christmas to my mind. Just as Christmas' race was subject to debate, so was the question of who were Sherman's parents? He is cursed by those curiously blue gray eyes in body to dark for them.


Sexuality of Sherman and Jester: Oh, McCullers. How modern you had become. Having Jester reading Kinsey's study on sexual behavior in men. I'm inclined to think Jester was struggling with his sexual identity. He resists the possibility of being gay. However, his attraction to Sherman is clearly more than platonic. Sherman physically resisted Jester's kiss, striking him. He told Jester on more than one occasion he had been sodomized or "buggered." I tend to think Sherman was an asexual. He was more interested in finding a mother than a lover.

The South as Setting: Although begun in 1953, by the time CWH was published the South was torn apart by violence committed by white Southerners against Civil Rights Workers. That is the South portrayed by McCullers. It is a fierce, unrepentant South. Emmett Till is dead. The Montgomery Bus Boycott has occurred. And the principle of "separate but equal" has been held unconstitutional in Brown v. Board of Education.. Judge Clance is a valid portrayal of white supremacy of the era. His rhetoric was repeated by Wallace, Lester Maddox and others. And don't tell me racism is dead in this country today. Nor is it limited to the South. The tone of this novel is bleak and unrelenting, offering little hope for change. But there is some. Although this is certainly not McCullers' masterpiece, it is well deserving of a read

LIVING WITH A CLOCK WITHOUT HANDS: Each of our main characters are living as though their clocks are without hands. Sherman has no past, no identity. He is incapable of finding a place in the world when he has no origin. When he attempts to violate the white code of conduct he goes largely unnoticed. Only by committing the most flagrant act of moving into a house on a white street can he gain recognition. Similarly, Jester is unmindful of time, having no idea what he will do with his life. Essentially, he has no future. J.W. Stone faces certain death from leukemia. And soon. For him, time will literally stop. For him time no longer has purpose. Finally, for Judge Clance, time has stood still for his wilfull failure to accept change, though bound by oath as an attorney to support the Constitution. And it is Judge Clance who foments the mob to bomb Sherman's house. If there is any redemption gained by anyone, it is Malone who, having drawn the lot to throw the bomb refuses to. I loved this novel.

Lawyer wrote: "Lawyer Mike here, slowly tapping on a tablet. Green tea spilling on a laptop is disastrous. Sigh. Although I have begun a review it is not finished. But will be when my computer is repaired or repl..."

Thank you, Mike. Very eloquently put. My knowledge of American History is sketchy (we moved a lot when I was young and I never had those classes) so I especially appreciate your insights into the temporal setting.

Malone was the character who made the novel work for me: more complex than the others, the most relatable for me personally, the most directly related to McCullers herself as well I think. Redemption gained, growth attained (however abruptly). I think we see some of that in Jester’s character too, but it was Malone who left me a bit teary-eyed. Beautiful stuff there at the end with him and his wife.

so Doug... was this your last McCullers? When I went back to see who nominated this, I noticed you mentioned being a completist.

Don't know about Doug, but it was my last McCullers, and the reason I finished the book despite not liking it. However this this discussion has made me see I missed a few things, or ignored them. I'm with Chandler in feeling like Malone's wife Martha got short shift in this novel. The Judge only had a few years to live because of his age, but Jester and Martha were the future. Jester decided he would be a lawyer like his father, and you can see him becoming a champion for the downtrodden in the future. And Martha was going to be fine whether her husband lived or died. She had a cake business, she owned 3 rental houses, and had Coca Cola stock! I know Martha wasn't a main character, but I think she was important enough as a harbinger of what was coming. J. T. was certainly worried about her independence, since he mentioned it over and over.

Dustincecil wrote: "so Doug... was this your last McCullers? When I went back to see who nominated this, I noticed you mentioned being a completist."

I’ve read all her novels now but not all of her short stories.

Diane, I agree that Martha represented the new wave with her independence. She reminded me a bit of Mildred Pierce with her thriving cake business. (You’d probably enjoy that novel, if you haven’t already read it.) It moved me that Malone finally appreciated and relied on Martha’s strength in the end. Verily (Truth?) was part of the new wave too. “Take this job and shove it!”

Mildred Pierce is on my shelf. And Verily was a favorite character. I especially liked the way she held Sherman in very low esteem. Couldn't fool that lady!

Sorry to hear about your laptop, Mike, but thank you for persevering on your tablet to weigh in. Astute comments, as always. I particularly enjoyed your thoughts on Living With A Clock Without Hands. I still believe this book needed a central female character, and McCullers had options for this in Martha or Verily, even Ellen (? next generation). I'd love to ask her why she limited this one to an all-male cast.

We've all ignored the elephant in the room, Jester's father, the Judges son, his love for Sherman's mother, and the reason for his suicide. That whole story seemed to me like an afterthought thrown in to explain Sherman's origin. In that place and time, a white father and black mother was not unusual, but a white woman who chose to have sex with a black man would have been explosive. How could no one in that town remember her pregnancy and the baby? That was one of the false notes for me, it did not make sense and seemed to muddy the story.

I'm with you Chandler, still want a female voice. I kept wanting the girl from the heart is a lonely hunter to make an appearance.

Diane, all that stuff with jester's father, and Sherman's parentage was confusing to me. It seemed like he was going to be a grandson, for the first half, and half brothers to jester, but then didn't... I just lost interest in it, seemed unfocused to me. Also like you said, small town, everyone would have known.

Dustincecil wrote: "I'm with you Chandler, still want a female voice. I kept wanting the girl from the heart is a lonely hunter to make an appearance.

Diane, all that stuff with jester's father, and Sherman's parenta..."

Oh, I don't think it mattered that everyone knew. That Sherman Jones had consensual sex with a white woman put him in the electric chair, even though Jones acted in self defense. There's little difference between Sherman's mother and Mayella Ewell. Except Mayella lied to put Tom Robinson in the chair. But Tom just ran like a crazy man. That everyone in Milan knew of Sherman's parentage just points to the prejudice that existed.

Chandler wrote: "I still believe this book needed a central female character, and McCullers had options for this in Martha or Verily, even Ellen (? next generation). I'd love to ask her why she limited this one to an all-male cast. ..."

The lack of central female characters wasn't an issue for me. Sometimes I read novels with no central male characters and that's never an issue for me either. Maybe McCullers chose to focus more on her male characters in this novel in order to more clearly focus her political views re our patriarchal society.

Diane wrote: "We've all ignored the elephant in the room, Jester's father, the Judges son, his love for Sherman's mother, and the reason for his suicide. That whole story seemed to me like an afterthought thrown..."

I thought that and the trial were at the heart of the story and without it the novel would have been lifeless.

Dustin, I wondered if Sherman was Jester's half-brother at one point too but I appreciated that red herring because the mystery helped pull my interest.

Sorry, a bit late to finishing this one, but just thought I'd weigh in. I see the "clock without hands" metaphor raging through, and see various characters and situations in allegorical terms and the symbolism present, but, to me, the whole novel just wasn't as solid as some of her other works. I thought it was a bit too overdone in many ways (the Judge stands out as an example). I'll reflect on the whole book further, though.

As a side note, I really enjoyed McCullers' short stories immensely, especially ones in The Ballad of the Sad Cafe, much better than this one. "Wunderkind" was quite a story, probably my favorite of the bunch. I have read and also enjoyed The Heart is a Lonely Hunter and thought it handled the theme of isolation/death a bit better than this work.

That being said, I see how McCullers tries to tie everything together in some ways in symbolic form at the end, and I do enjoy her writing as a whole. She has a strong sense of understanding and empathizing with the human condition, which she presents quite often in her writing.

Agree with everything you said, Frankie. I don't think anyone believes this to be her best work, but I have loved her other books and short stories.

Diane wrote: "Agree with everything you said, Frankie. I don't think anyone believes this to be her best work, but I have loved her other books and short stories."

I'm not sure how much she was in a hurry to finish, but it seems like she was trying too hard with some of the characterizations and themes. And yet, the final parts of the novel have these powerfully amazing descriptions that are so typical of her.

Franky wrote: "I'm not sure how much she was in a hurry to finish, but it seems like she was trying too hard with some of the characterizations and themes. And yet, the final parts of the novel have these powerfully amazing descriptions that are so typical of her. "

Too conscious of her themes, I think. I read an article somewhere where she was quoted as saying she was writing in a trance-like state when she wrote the initial drafts for The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter. In this one, she had years to think it all through and too much conscious tinkering can be bad for art.

On one hand, I liked it because it was like being fed a crash course in her social/political views and this helped me to understand her head better. On the other hand, I prefer to feed myself.

The dialogue between Jester and Sherman was the weakest element for me and I thought their childish mispronunciation of words sounded prepubescent. I agree that the writing soared at times - especially toward the end. My favorite moment was that description of the land as viewed from Jester's plane.