On the Southern Literary Trail discussion

is iowa part of south

No, Erica. Iowa is officially in the midwest.

You can't get much more Midwestern than Iowa :)

Went to school there. I agree. Iowa is the Midwest.

It's part of the South - of Canada!

Someone was not paying attention in geography class. ;-)

well, since you went there Patrick... I'll say it's 'East coast.. if you consider the Mississippi one of the coasts'... lol

In a couple of his books ( from the 30s) Sherwood Anderson argued that the people through rural midwestern towns had more similar sensibilities with the south, because of their shared agrarian lifestyles. Lives shaped by the cruel realities of the power of nature versus agriculture. Unlike the more industrial north.

I think is is also a fair question considering all of the fine American writing muscle that has been trained and flexed in Iowa- so much of if it heavily influenced by incredible southern literature.

Can Iowa be a first cousin to the south?

Yes! The Bridges is Madison County is almost
a Southern novel, right?

Okay, peeps. Give the girl a break. I, too, was disappointed to learn that I couldn't nominate Shoeless Joe as a group read on the Trail.

I fear that these days, Iowans are indeed regarded as racist, because of Steve King. An Iowan friend of mine is beside herself about this.

Patrick wrote: "I fear that these days, Iowans are indeed regarded as racist, because of Steve King. An Iowan friend of mine is beside herself about this."

Unfortunately, we are coming to realize lately that racism is not confined to geographical boundaries.

LeAnne wrote: "Was Iowa the site of bloody Civil War battles where entire cities were burnt to the ground?
Is there a belief by many that most Iowans of the past supported slavery?
What percentage of Iowans are A..."

I'm totally with you until this: "Have television series or movies or books characterized Iowans as backward?" Really, a yes answer to this one, without more, can't be the criteria, else it would apply to every rural area from Maine to Montana, and Peoria, IL to Deep Creek, Maryland.

More generally, I'm entirely in agreement that Iowa isn't the south because otherwise 90% of Pennsylvania (oft referred to accurately as Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Georgia around and between them) and 98% of New York (If you haven't lived upstate, you might not understand, but trust me) would qualify. It's geography, not a state of mind, at least for purposes of assembling a group of readers. Just sayin.'

Dustincecil wrote: "In a couple of his books ( from the 30s) Sherwood Anderson argued that the people through rural midwestern towns had more similar sensibilities with the south, because of their shared agrarian life..."


There's always room at a Southern potluck or reunion to acknowledge another cousin. Isn't there?

Speaking of identity crises, I live in Missouri. The northern part of the state is in the north (just like Iowa; ok, if you insist, midwestern, whatever that means), the eastern part of the state is in the east (just like Illinois), the western part of the state is in the west (just like Kansas), and the southern part of the state is in the south (just like Arkansas).

No Shoeless Joe, what a bummer. One of my favorite books ever. I know it's not southern, but it is the quintessential Iowa book.

Howard wrote: "Speaking of identity crises, I live in Missouri. The northern part of the state is in the north (just like Iowa; ok, if you insist, midwestern, whatever that means), the eastern part of the state i..."

You can visit the whole country with a Sunday afternoon drive, lol!

Carol wrote: "Howard wrote: "Speaking of identity crises, I live in Missouri. The northern part of the state is in the north (just like Iowa; ok, if you insist, midwestern, whatever that means), the eastern part..."

Well, a weekend, anyway.

LeAnne wrote: "Carol wrote: "LeAnne wrote: "Was Iowa the site of bloody Civil War battles where entire cities were burnt to the ground?
Is there a belief by many that most Iowans of the past supported slavery?
Wh..."

Indeed.

Wow! What a map! I had no idea ? I think we really should have a more accurate Census taken . Some of those states are just clear and that is not right!
Why is it that people hate to fill out census forms but could care less if a hacker may or may not have all of their identification to steal their identity? My ex did the last census and he said people would hide rather than fill out those forms. That is how states are federally funded!

Dawn wrote: "Wow! What a map! I had no idea ? I think we really should have a more accurate Census taken . Some of those states are just clear and that is not right!
Why is it that people hate to fill out cens..."

According to the map, those "clear" areas COULD have up to 5.3% black populations.

LeAnne wrote: "Howard wrote: "Dawn wrote: "Wow! What a map! I had no idea ? I think we really should have a more accurate Census taken . Some of those states are just clear and that is not right!
Why is it that ..."

You make some excellent points, LeAnne. And one can get a clearer idea of the racial and ethnic make-up of a state by clicking on that state on the map.

Regarding racial make-up of the U.S.military, I was surprised by the percentage of Black Women.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/2...

I just read this thread and spent a lot of time laughing out loud.
LeAnne, you rock.

Morning, Y'all. I'm late to the party on this thread. I've had my nose buried in the novels of Lee Smith, thanks to our "Miss Scarlett," Diane Barnes.

It's interesting that this discussion is occurring at this particular time. Has anyone mentioned we've just passed the Fifty-Second Anniversary of the Voting Rights March from Selma to Montgomery?

The South had far to come and has come a long way in learning racial tolerance and harmony. Yet, in my travels, nationally and abroad, I have learned that racism knows no geographical boundaries. Diversity is a word easily spoken. Practicing it is a different process.

I noticed this thread originally arose from Erika's question of whether Iowa is a part of the South. There were some responses I'm sure that were meant in good humor. A few may have gone a little bit too far.

To be direct, there is no such thing as an ignorant question. I'd ask that we think with courtesy before responding in a manner that might be considered insensitive to anyone who asks a question. Feelings can be hurt. Enough said.

I appreciated Tom's comment regarding Shoeless Joe by W.P. Kinsella. Well, Shoeless Joe Jackson was certainly a Southerner, born in Pickens County, South Carolina. Died in Greenville, South Carolina. But he's right. Kinsella's wonderful novel is not Southern literature.

I cannot speak for any member of "The Trail." However, I can sure see someone asking whether Iowa was Southern, when W.P. Kinsella also wrote The Iowa Baseball Confederacy. AHEM... I'm a baseball literature junkie, just as much as I love Southern literature. This is a fine read, by the way.

I digress. After all, I'm a Southerner. I enjoy telling a story and in the manner of some storytellers from the South, the point of a story is the journey, the ramble, before you get to the destination, the reason you told the story.

On the Fiftieth Anniversary of the Selma to Montgomery Voters' Rights March, March 7, 2015, I posted the following on FB:

A Quote For the Day: "We must come to see that the end we seek is a society at peace with itself, a society that can live with its conscience."--Martin Luther King Jr.

March 7, 1965: The first civil rights march from Selma to Montgomery began 50 years ago today. Demonstrators met with brutal force from state and local lawmen and footage of the violent clashes finally shifted public opinion.

I ask my friends to be patient with me today. Perhaps a better word would be tolerant.

It's important to note this is the anniversary of the FIRST Selma March. It was done to commemorate the death of Jimmie Lee Jackson, a Deacon of his Baptist Church in Marion, Alabama, in Perry County. Jackson had been inspired by Martin Luther King, Jr. to seek the registration of black voters in his county. He had tried to accomplish that for four years. On the night of February 18, 1965, he and other marchers, including his mother and his eighty-two year old grandmother went to the jail in Marion, singing hymns. They were attacked by local law enforcement and State Troopers. Jackson and his family fled into a little cafe called Mack's where they were chased by the Troopers. All were clubbed by the Troopers. Jackson attempted to shield his mother and grandmother.

Trooper James Bonard Fowler shot Jimmie Lee Jackson twice in the stomach. Jackson did not die immediately, but lingered until his death on February 26, 1965 in a hospital in Selma. Records at the hospital showed gun powder marks around the two wounds on Jackson's stomach, indicating the gunshots had been fired at close range.

Jackson's death sparked the first Selma March. The march was done to commemorate his death and to achieve the registration of black voters which had been prevented by discriminatory voting laws. Alabama was only one place where these laws existed.

That first March, led by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. became known as Bloody Sunday. The violence used against blacks and other races of all creeds, including whites who joined in that March is a mark of shame on the people who inflicted that violence and those that ordered the use of that violence at the time.

What is probably forgotten today is this. That night, ABC television was showing Judgment at Nuremberg, the monumental film about the Nazi War Criminal Trials following World War II. ABC interrupted the showing of the film with fifteen minutes of live coverage of the violence used against those marchers in Selma, Alabama. Ironic, isn't it?

The results of that violence and the two subsequent marches including the one from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama, led to the passage of the 1965 Voting Rights Act, changing forever, the discriminatory voting practices of the past.

Whenever any nation uses violence against its own people it is an act of intolerance. It is a failure to understand the basic rights of the fundamental documents that are the underpinnings of our own country, our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

Today, Selma is being compared to Ferguson, Missouri. Jimmie Lee Jackson of yesterday has been said to be the Michael Brown of today. Everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they may form. Freedom of Speech is one of the bedrocks of our Nation.

In fact, James Bonard Fowler, was not originally indicted for the murder of Jimmie Lee Jackson in 1965. He was not indicted until 2007. He was convicted of the lesser charge of Manslaughter in the Second Degree and received a sentence of six months. That came forty-two years after the death of Jimmie Lee Jackson.

However, what happened in Selma concerned voting rights. In saying that, I do not mean to diminish the death of Michael Brown in any degree. I only want to point out why Selma occurred. I go further to say what was fought for so hard those many years ago is one of the least exercised rights today. Andrew Young and John Lewis, who were followers of Dr. King have said that if people do not exercise their right to vote, then Selma means nothing today. I have to agree with that.

At times I despair for our Country and for many who live here. We have become a dissatisfied people. We complain much. We accomplish little by complaining or pointing fingers.

I am a man deeply influenced by individuals of previous generations. My grandfather stands high among those. His pantheon of heroes included FDR and Harry Truman. He carried quotes by them in his bill fold. He was not shy in pulling them out and reading those when he felt them appropriate in a discussion.

I have friends who are liberals. I have friends who are conservatives. I have values that are common to each of those philosophies. I am of an era when men having values unique to each of those philosophies were able to work across the aisles to accomplish what was right for the good of all. In other words, they set aside ego, pride, self interest for the better good of all.

We live in a state of gridlock and dissension. Men and women no longer seem to have a sense of working across the aisles. Ego and pride, pandering to a select constituency, a knee jerk political party policy seem to guide the dictates of government. That leads to no government and the production of no good for anybody.

It is also an indication that those we elect have lost a tolerance for the rights of those whom they are to serve. That is all the people.

And, at home, in our churches, we also see division, a lack of understanding. A willingness to name things a "sin." A moral pointing of fingers. I often wonder whether congregations recognize a "New" covenant between God and humanity created by the New Testament.

I would be the last to say I am a church going man. I have teetered off and on the road of faith all my life. Once upon a time, I had a beloved minister who called me his own "personal heathen," because of my challenging questions. We had many enjoyable discussions. When he moved to another larger church, I missed him. I still do. I still have questions. He would find me unchanged in having challenging questions. I ascribe to the theory that faith is always challenged by doubt.

As human beings, we are born with certain circumstances beyond our control. Who our parents are. The color of our skin. Whether we are male or female. The color of our eyes and hair. Then as we grow, we are also a child of our environment. We are children of our genetics and our environment.

A controversial element I will throw out, again on the issue of tolerance is this. People do not choose their sexuality. It is a complex identity formed genetically and environmentally. For my good church going friends, and I have many of them, I ask that you please not point fingers and say, "Sinners." Remember the nature of those with whom Christ mingled and to whom he ministered. Remember, "Let he who is among you without sin cast the first stone." Remember that no one picked up a stone. I cannot pick up a stone. Can you?

John Steinbeck has always been one of my favorite authors. He once wrote in his journal, "Try to understand men, if you understand each other you will be kind to each other. Knowing a man well never leads to hate and nearly always leads to love."

If we could only do that, try to understand one another, think how much better our world, our country, our lives would be. We might achieve a society at peace with itself and a conscience it can live with.

We have reached my destination. I love the diversity of this group. Let us practice moderation in all things we write here. May we be conscious of the effects our words may have on the sensitivities of another before we post them. May we always discuss in such a way to avoid divisiveness. And may we always simply be kind to one another.

Everyone have a good day. As always, happy reading.

Mike

I came into the thread late, but I found it all good humor. I absolutely agree that there is no such thing as a question that shouldn't be asked. Erika, this is a very friendly group, so I hope you were not offended in any way. I remember when I "came north" as I always refer to my move to Maryland and had to adjust to a region that wasn't like the one I came from. Sensibilities can suffer from misunderstanding. I'm sending positive Southern vibes out to everyone!

Here's a great article about the subject of Where Exactly Is the South?

Yep, the South is a place in the mind and one I am always excited to go to.

That's a good definition. "A place where southerners argue about who's really southern". Barbecue, cornbread and slaw are always sources of argument too. And the thing is, all of us are right!

Just catching this thread for the first time. How enlightening!
I've missed out on much culture being a native Southern Californian on the West Coast. It's always been geography from our POV.
I think I'm having a wee bit of identity crisis. My maternal ancestors settled in Iowa farming life after coming through Ellis Island. I've only visited once but fondly remember seeing my first fireflies one summer evening.

I very much appreciated your post Mr. Lawyer. I may share it on another private political thread with your permission?

Cathrine ☯️ wrote: "Just catching this thread for the first time. How enlightening!
I've missed out on much culture being a native Southern Californian on the West Coast. It's always been geography from our POV.
I thi..."

Yes, Tom, you're welcome to use the post.

Mike

Patrick wrote: "It's part of the South - of Canada!"

LOL!

Isn't it the culture of the people more than it is geography? I live in Texas....West of IH 35 is definitely Western culture. East of IH 35 is Southern and south of Hwy 90 is Tejano.

Yes, Zorro. Southern is as much a state of mind as a state of occupancy.

That being the case Sara, since I grew up in southern California does that make me Southern?

Nope, but if you wrote a book with Southern sensibilities, it would be Southern even if you are a Californian. :)

Zorro wrote: "Isn't it the culture of the people more than it is geography? I live in Texas....West of IH 35 is definitely Western culture. East of IH 35 is Southern and south of Hwy 90 is Tejano."

Hi Zorro! I am an Air Force brat with Southern roots since my mother was born in MS. I lived all over Texas and sure agree with you. Texas could be 5 different states. I graduated from college in Wichita Falls and Larry McMurtry sort of defines that area I guess. People may try to label me one thing or another but its impossible. Newfoundlanders used to call me a Yankee which made my blood boil. I explained to them a thousand times that I am Southern but they never had a clue. Most of them were Irish Catholic but I never called them Irish.

My sister lived in VT for about ten years and people would ask her where she was from so she just said "Southern Vermont!" LOL!

Dustincecil wrote: "In a couple of his books ( from the 30s) Sherwood Anderson argued that the people through rural midwestern towns had more similar sensibilities with the south, because of their shared agrarian life..."

I disagree with that as I know people very well from both those areas. They are extremely different.

Diane wrote: "That's a good definition. "A place where southerners argue about who's really southern". Barbecue, cornbread and slaw are always sources of argument too. And the thing is, all of us are right!"

A good biscuit is extremely critical point. Only a Southerner can make a really good one but I do have a friend in England who can make a Southern biscuit!!! This morning my husband who is from the Midwest offered to take me to The Denver Biscuit Company. I will do anything for a good biscuit.

grits. You know immediately when you have crossed into the North, the grits are awful. Another give away, they look at you strange when you order grits in the first place.

The best biscuit I’ve eaten was in pacific grove, CA. Just saying, I still think about that biscuit. But it wasn’t a complimentary biscuit either.

Laura wrote: "The best biscuit I’ve eaten was in pacific grove, CA. Just saying, I still think about that biscuit. But it wasn’t a complimentary biscuit either."

I find it hard to believe you could find a real Southern Biscuit there but strange things do happen. Lots of people from the South do move to CA. I did myself for a short time. I can believe you still think about it. There is nothing so good.

I also sometimes think about some snails (escargot) that I had in London done by a French chef. They were heavenly but I will probably never get anything like that again.

Going back to the title subject, and pardon if I re-tread trodden ground: I do not believe Iowa is in the American South, but the southern part of Missouri is --Branson, e.g.

It's not below the Mason-Dixon line.

My question: can a Yankee become Southern by sleeping with a Southern gal . . . for 50 years? I eat grits, cook Black-eyed Peas, Ham and Hush Puppies for New Years dinner, and even watch Steel Magnolias with her. I love the slave market in Charleston, tip the basket weavers when I take their picture, and eat at the same table (Judge Wapner’s) at Hyman’s Seafood Restaurant on Meeting Street whenever we are in town.

And I sleep with a Southern gal!

Southern is an attitude, John, and it sounds like you're already there!

lol. I'd say yes, John. Southern conversion is a real thing.

Having been born and raised in Iowa, it most definitely is NOT part of the south. Although my husband (who is from Pennsylvania) does not get the Midwest part, even though I try relentlessly to explain it to him. Now living in Mississippi, people call me a Yankee, which I most definitely am not since I am not from one of the 13 original states, which my husband technically is. But that does not matter here, so we are technically considered Damn Yankee's because we have lived here for 15+ years now. There are some similarities I guess to southern culture and Iowa culture - family, hospitality, to name a couple. But beyond that we are totally different creatures. My husband has gotten to where he does like Southern food (seafood, black-eyed peas, greens) but I stick to my Midwest fare. Grits are very Southern (even though we have tons of corn in Iowa), but Iowa is oatmeal and cream of wheat. I don't touch grits with a ten foot pole, but those down here would rather starve than eat oatmeal. Now, as far as history, this is the place to be. Even though it is the complete opposite of what my husband and I were taught when we were in school. So having kids in school here during history class was quite educational to us because it was SO different. I like living here, but I miss crisp spring mornings, the smell of the soil when it gets turned that first time after winter, having 4 separate seasons instead of two weeks of spring and fall, and seeing the leaves change in the fall - it is green to brown here. But I cannot wait until I retire (years to come) and I can hopefully talk my husband into moving back North.

Missy is quite right. Iowa was never part of the South, but southern Missouri is.

This map is from the book American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America. Note that Iowa belongs almost entirely to "The Midlands" (and partly to "Yankeedom"), but southern Missouri belongs to "Greater Appalachia":

John wrote: "My question: can a Yankee become Southern by sleeping with a Southern gal . . . for 50 years? I eat grits, cook Black-eyed Peas, Ham and Hush Puppies for New Years dinner, and even watch Steel Magn..."

The slave market is Charleston is the place to visit. My 7 year old son could spend the whole day in there. He also loved Boone's Plantation for the same reason. And yes, my husband was mesmerized with the basket weavers as well. We loved the whole city when we went and cannot wait to visit again.