The Sword and Laser discussion

I feel like all I'm doing in the other threads is defending the book. That's boring and definitely not why I finally joined this group, so I thought it would be cool to create a thread for the many of us who already love the book and are reading it again so we can actually discuss it more in depth without worrying about spoilers or lemmers. What do you guys think? For instance, I have some theories/questions about Bast and Denna now that I'm noticing more about them on this re-read.

Please share your theories! But question, will this be spoilers for both books or just the first? I feel like a large number of people here have probably already read the second

I just started my third or fourth re-read and had a WOW/Duh moment. Not sure if it was subtle or I'm just dense.

Also just finished the Bast's Rogue short story which was fun.

I love almost all the minor characters. Bast, Elodin, the Chronicler, Devi, the Count, Arei, and Kilven? (Audiobook, Sorry.)

I haven't begun my reread yet as I wan't to finish the excellent book The Magicians which I half through but I'm hoping that NotW will be better as a second read.

Theories:

(view spoiler)[
Denna dies in book three before or shortly after her and Kvothe finally get together.

Ambrois is some how responsible and Kvothe kills him possibly due to Kvothe being a potential claimant to the throne.

Bast is bound to Kvothe by some kind of fairy law due to Kvothe stealing the moon from the fairy world.

An important plot point which send kvothe off an new adventure will occurs in a pub
(hide spoiler)]

I know that Bast is a fae of some sort, but I've noticed just how many times demons taking human hosts has been mentioned early on, usually right before or after Bast makes an appearance in the future. This may have been proven wrong in the books already and I missed it (it's been years since I listened to the audio books), but could Bast be a demon in a human host, that host being, possibly, someone like Ambrose or the "king".

I noticed that Denna can't be found. If Kvothe is looking for her, she is nowhere. Only when he stops looking does she appear. We also know that the Chandrian are real. I wonder if they aren't immortal necessarily but they each pass their essence down like Vampire Slayer lineage status and Denna is the next in line.

As far as Ambrose is concerned, it's mentioned he's like twenty second in line (or something) to become king-- I'm betting he's the king that gets killed. I could see Bast being involved in that act, possibly taking over his body when the deed is done. I don think we've seen any fae walk the normal world yet, right? Maybe possession is the only way they can exist there.

I think he must have something to do with Felurian (since she's the only connection we have to fae at this point) who in turn IMO has something to do with kvothe's broken mojo (it seems it'd be fitting if a broken promise lead to broken mojo)

Oh, and denna-- she clearly has a connection to the chandrian. If not because of anything special about her, at least her sponsor man. I don't think she's in line, just that they need a herald, someone to sing them into town, and she's the kind of person that has the right skills and, when they're done with her, they can dispose of her without anyone noticing.

That was the most frustrating thing about the second book to me. It's so obvious there's a connection, and the literal genius protagonist who is obsessed with both of those things never once puts it together.

I don't think Bast is a demon. Kvothe calls him "one of the Folk", and I think he means Fair Folk, as in Fae. Probably a satyr from the description of how his feet look like cloven hooves if you look at them right, and how he keeps himself busy with the town's young wives and daughters. The Fae also fear cold iron.

I think Skarpi, the storyteller who shakes Kvothe out of his wounded rut in Tarbean, is some kind of divine agent, maybe even Tehlu reincarnated again or more likely one of the Amyr, who Haliax claimed to keep the other Chandrian safe from. "Mercy on *my* soul.[...] You don't know how funny that sounds coming from you."

The second book was annoying to me also in that Kvothe spends what I think is too much time just trying to survive, usually because he's been reckless, and not enough time finding more about these deep secrets. I'm having trouble trusting that the third book is going to pay off all these teases to my satisfaction.

Ya I'm pretty sure from the description in the book that Bast is a satyr prince but he does have powers over lesser fae because he sends the one who possessed the bandit to attack the inn in attempt reawaken Kvothe.

It also says somewhere that there are no demons that they are all just creatures from the fae world.

I do wonder about book three as well there are a lot of threads that need to be resolved.


-Kvothe opening the door of stone and freeing whatever dark power is trapped beyond
-Kvothe breaking the world and starting the war.
-The Fae moving more freely in the human world
-Explaining the origin and significance of the spider creatures
-Finding out who Denna's sponsor
-Learning the truth behind who or what the amry and chandrian really are.
-Kvothe killing an angel.
-Kvothe finding out he's a Lucklass and that the woman who him forced to leave the city in book 2 is his aunt
-Kvothe discovering some lost knowledge hidden in the knot language with Denna's help
-Kvothe giving up part of his name
-Kvothe getting expelled from school.
-Learning that Auri is Elondin daughter
-Finding out why halifax and the chandrian are destroying all ancient records.
-Kvothe opening the box containing part of moon's name
-Denna and kvothe getting together
-Denna dying
-Ambrosis dying
-Meeting Bast and learning his story
-Consequences for kvothe not keeping his promise to fleaurian.
-Kvothe losing all his abilities and becoming a bartender


There are probably others but those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. Not sure how all of that is going to make it into one book that is shorter then the second one.

Well if he cut out the hundred or so pages of sex he might've had room in this last one...

I think it's pretty obvious why the Chandrian are destroying ancient records. So far, they've been destroying information about themselves, presumably to hide some weakness. But Haliax hints at some other purpose also, and that intrigues me greatly. Is it just attempting to thwart Tehlu and other agents of justice? Or something less obvious?

Alexander wrote: "Learning that Auri is Elodin daughter "

Where'd that one come from?

Ooo, ooo! I just today reread the part where Master Kilvin quotes "Chan Vaen edan Kote", saying it means "Expect disaster every seven years." From the dialogue there, it implies that "Kote" means "disaster". That's really quite neat.

That's a great catch, Joanna! Really shows you just how clever Kvothe is, and yet strangely modest.

The Auri as Elodin's daughter. Please explain.

Jack wrote: "The Auri as Elodin's daughter. Please explain."

That's just just wild guess really. Based on
1 - They are both lets call its "special"
2 - In the second book I think. Elodin and Kvothe meet on the roof top and he tells Kvothe that he's known about Auri for a long time and has done what he can to help her. He's tried leaving food, and clothes out for her but she has always refused them. He askes Kvothe to give her things in his behalf as she won't take them from him.

The scene gave me the impression that Elodin has and connection to Auri. That he feels responsible for her and her current circumstances.

Nothing new to add really but I just read the part where Ambrose gives Kvothe a candle. Gr...

Alexander wrote: "Some stuff."

I got the feeling that Elodin feels responsible for everyone he's tried to teach naming to who has subsequently gone off the deep end, but I'll be interested in seeing if your theory pans out.

As far as the various open-ended questions, I wouldn't be surprised if several of your list have the same answer. For example...

Kvothe giving up part of his name/losing abilities/not keeping his promise > All of these are probably the same thing. He changes his Name, which changes who he is (implied by Elodin freaking out when Kvothe mentions knowing a girl who is constantly changing her name), so he's no longer the person who made that promise or the person who can do all of things that he can (apparently) do.

I will personally be surprised if a great many pieces of his "legend" aren't all connected to a relatively few actual actions.

Speaking of "Elodin freaking out when Kvothe mentions knowing a girl who is constantly changing her name" and how Kvothe change when his name became Kote

Could Auri's condition be the result of a failed attempt to change her own name?

Uhmm, very hard to propose ideas since some of us seemed to have read book 2, and none read book 3.

Also, for thouse in Audible - the spelling is:
Kilvin (the master artificer)
Ambrose (the jackass)
Elodin (that lovable psycho).

Some of the theories I had thought about, some seem just weird, but it is all fun to guess.

As for myself I'll say:

- Agree that Skapi is some sort of Amyr agent
- The battle between the Chandrian and the Amyr seem to rage on - is it not only the Chandrian covering their tracks, the Amyr seem to do it too.
- I think Kvothe is up to a dissapointment when he tracks the Amyr, either they are content with the status quo, or (because of a weird thing on book 2) are resorting to "less than holy" means.
- The angel tha Kvother kills is an Amyr.
- Kote is not only broken for having lost Denna (for whatever reason), he is also barred from fulfilling his life goal of killing the Chandrian or at least Haliax.

I like the concept, a "rereader's thread" for those of us not interested in justifying why someone ought read this wondrous work.

I've read the two books enough times to lose track of how many times, and with each reread I learn something new. But here's my dilemma. I don't like talking about this book because it promotes speculation for what is yet to be revealed. I've tried to avoid all areas devoted to sharp analysis for no other reason than I want to discover the lost tangled threads of story on my own rather than having someone else become the illuminator.

But I love talking about books, and I hate to think I'm acting like a NOTW snob...

Fun! Here are my wild guesses:

- The 'doors of stone' refer to the waystones = gateways to the fae realm. The enemy was imprisoned behind doors of stone after the battle at Drosen Tor, and is imprisoned somewhere deep inside. Maybe there is a shortcut via the Lackless door?
- Master Lorren is actually a human agent of the Amyr. His current job is to collect all written records mentioning of the Amyr & Chandrian and hide them away behind the four plated door in the library. I bet the inscription means some variation of 'truth'. He does this so the Chandian can't gain power by people using their names. Skarpi too.
- Meluan is definitely Kvothe's aunt.
- Kvothe lost his power because he broke his oath to not try to uncover Denna's patron.
- I think Kvothe & Denna never really get together, and Wil and Sim die soon.

My biggest questions are:
- who does Kvothe kill by the fountain/Eolian?
- what sword is the one above the bar 'be wary of folly'
- who is Denna's patron? A member of the Chandrian? Someone acting on their behalf? Bredon?

Casey wrote: "I like the concept, a "rereader's thread" for those of us not interested in justifying why someone ought read this wondrous work.

I've read the two books enough times to lose track of how many tim..."

The spoiler wall is definitely being neglected and this thread has shifted to one of speculation instead of actually being about the actual books. Perhaps I start another.

Reading this thread shows me just how I much I need to do a rearead at some point.

I love these books so damn much. I was afraid they would be a bit stale the third time through, but I find that I still have a hard time putting it down, and I'm catching things that I missed last time around.

If you really want to dig into the story and read some fun speculation, Jo Walton led a reread on Tor.com a few years back. Its a nice companion to a reread, and even the comments have some interesting things to say. Here's a link The Rothfuss Reread

Bruffaroo wrote: "If you really want to dig into the story and read some fun speculation, Jo Walton led a reread on Tor.com a few years back. Its a nice companion to a reread, and even the comments have some interesting things to say. Here's a link The Rothfuss Reread "

Bless you. This is amazing. I need to find a way to read Jo Walton's articles regularly.

I finished my reread of the fist book yesterday. I wonder if the fact that "Denna" and "Denner" sound like each other is significant? Euphoria, mania, delirium, exhaustion...we'll have to see.

I just finished the first chapter and there is a line in the prologue that stuck out to me "If there had been music... but no, of course there was no music."

If that doesn't foreshadow Kvothe giving up his music after Denna's death then I don't know what does.

Stacia: "My biggest questions are:
- who does Kvothe kill by the fountain/Eolian?
- who is Denna's patron? A member of the Chandrian? Someone acting on their behalf? Bredon?"

(view spoiler)[
I thought the death by the fountain was an exaggerated version of the secene where he calls the wind for the first time and breaks Ambroise's arm. But I'm not far enough into the book 1 to be sure.

Bredon would be my bet, I don't see how it could be anyone else unless its a character that has yet to be introduced.
(hide spoiler)]

Here is a question

It seems the world is turning for the worst, at least a major battle is being fought, and Kvothe seems to have had something to do with it.

...do you think the serie will end with him just finishing his story up to the point that everything goes south, saying thank you very much and just leaving? Or is Kvothe going to re-emerge and try to fix things?

It is, after all, the Kingkiller chronicle Day One and Two

I think it will end with Kvothe reawakening and deciding to stop hiding from what he has done and go back out into the world.

I'd like it to end with Denna alive after all showing up at the inn carrying his old lute, and saying seven final words.


I think we'll have to wait till later books if there are any to have the world put back together. The story is mainly about Kvothe's life and how the world got broken now about solving the current crisis.

I see day three including a chest, a box, a door, and a Wall of Sleep.

things and theories;

- Bredon is the Patron
- Bredon isn't cinder (patron - bredon - cinder? that's just too... in line ... I can't see Pat making it that easy)
- Kvothe's mom is the Lackless sister
- Rodrick is the King Killed ( cthaeh ate the butterflies of his family colours, kvothe poisoned the birds with his surname, "the King allows swords to be worn in court" "he does, and that will be the death of him one day")
- Ambrose is the King currently (nothing to back that up)
- kvothe lists points in his brag in chronological order... so he has already "Stolen a princess from sleeping barrow kings"
- we're getting a trilogy of Kvothe's past as a lead up to Kvothe's present



I love the books... and I love talking with people who love them too...I get tired trying to defend why I love it to people who just want to bag on it!

also, one thing I hardly see mentioned is the story Martin told about cyphis (audiobook here... I suck with spelling) fighting taborlin. martin literally told a story about a King who shares a true name with one of the 7

Well Kvothe is Tamberlin for the modern age, and only somewhat intentionally. Besides his cloak of many pockets, he has (from Chapter one) "sword ... key, coin, and candle". Kvothe argueably has the same tools by the end of WMF.

Ambrose is a good guess, even in the first book we see him moving up the line as people die who would be ahead of him.

Kvothe's Mom as the Lackless siter should be assumed from early in the first book. Did you spot his aunt in WMF? He didn't.

I didn't catch it on my first listen, but I did on my second!

Wait wait woah who is his aunt now?

I hope he didn't recognize his aunt otherwise it would have made the job he was hired to do in WMF very creepy.

You don't meet her until The Wise Man's Fear. (view spoiler)[ She is Meluan Lackless, the woman Kvothe helps the Maer to woo, and whom he eventually marries. The woman who has a box mentioned in a song notionally about her sister. And a Key. And an abiding hated of the Ruh, which gets Kvothe the boot from the country. (hide spoiler)]

Actually rereading the section he did actually figure it out, but doesn't tell her.


Also the box, does it have (view spoiler)[ Setlitos's eye? Read Skarpi's tale starting in chapter 26 of TNOTW. It is the eye and Selitos's blood that binds Lanre/Haliax. (hide spoiler)]

So much great discussion hear. Oh my god I wish I had one of you to gush my inner theories to a year or two ago when they were still fresh in my mind. This is my third reread and this time I decided to use the fun detailed reread: http://www.tor.com/features/series/pa... made by the wonderful Jo Walton. Has anyone else read it? If so opinions? I quite like it, as even though I am careful reader I do not read into the meanings on certain stuff nor turn back the pages to check if one fact from my memory matched with something I had read before. So for me this reread was helpful in making me notice a lot of stuff I had simply missed on my first two run throughs. Anyway this has been an awesome read and hope it continues being great. :D

I've just finished the section where Kvothe meets Chronicler and there are some interesting bits that I'm curious if anyone else things might be significant


Chronicler says "Some are saying that there is a new Chandrian. A fresh terror in the night his hair as red as the blood he spills."

Could Kvothe have become a Chandrian as a result of killing Cinder or some other deed?


Chronicler says "I thought you'd be older" and Kvothe replied "I am"


Kvothe sums up his life saying "I trouped, travelled, loved, lost, trusted and was betrayed"

This implies that someone important to Kvothe will end up betraying him in book 3. Any predictions on who it will be?

I'm beginning to wonder if Kvothe might have fae blood. That might explain the fact that his eyes actually change color (not a trick of different light), and the fact that everyone thinks Kote looks young. I think he might actually be older than the 25 he looks in the frame story. It might also explain the fact that he was a prodigy.

Going through Jo Walton's reread now, her take iirc is that at some point in the future he gets stuck in fae for a long while, thus the age gap. Also that Denna near the start of this book was stuck in fae for a while, thus her acting like it had been ages since she was denna, rather than the year it had been.

Rob wrote: "Going through Jo Walton's reread now, her take iirc is that at some point in the future he gets stuck in fae for a long while, thus the age gap. Also that Denna near the start of this book was stuc..."

One of my favorite theories from that. Would explain a lot both about his demeanor and his strange eyes.

Also about Denna I have always wondered whether her real patron is one of the Fae and she is working for one of them and that's why she can not share his/her identity? And I do like the idea of her recently escaping from the Fae when we first meet her. She does seem rather strange at the begging of the book.

Well, the main reason to think that Denna's patron is one of the Chandrian, or someone working for them, has to do with the song, right?

(view spoiler)[That depicts Lanre as a hereo instead of the traitor, since Lanre is a Chandrian, he would want to clean his name somewhat? (hide spoiler)]

"I thought you were older"
"I am"

this, to me is a snide reference to events a little over half way through Book 2...he's not much older, but he's at least one year older than assumed

I never put much stock in him becoming one of the 7. it always seemed like a cruel rumor that was made to spite him...

Look what I miss when I'm gone a couple days! Damn...

The "I am [older]." line jumped out at me, too. I like your theory that he might be one of the seven. Man, that would be something!

I just finished reading the first time Kvothe plays at the Eolian. My first time reading it, I thought it was a good scene, but this time it really hit me. When Denna starts singing I'm just like wow. Then, when Kvothe breaks down... I got choked up big time. So moving!

I don't know if Kvothe lost his abilities at all, just refuses to use them. Like when he's being attacked by the thugs that break into his bar. He starts to fight back, but then chooses to get beaten. While feasibly he could lose his talent for Sympathy, and Naming, I don't think you could "lose" the ability to use Sygaldry, or his fighting skills learned from the Adem.

Finally started my re-read yesterday. Listening on Audible this time around (hooray 2 for 1 sales) and picking up on so much more good stuff. I can't wait until I get to the University and me Jerk Faced Ambrose.

Joanna wrote: "I'm beginning to wonder if Kvothe might have fae blood. That might explain the fact that his eyes actually change color (not a trick of different light), and the fact that everyone thinks Kote loo..."

I'm beginning to suspect the same, myself. Particularly given some of the descriptions of him at the Inn.

Interesting. I just got to the part where Deoch and Kvothe are talking about Denna. It seems strange to me that nobody can describe her or really tell how old she is. Deoch seems to think she hasn't aged. This reminds me a LOT of how Kote is described early on.

Chapter 75 is brilliant. It's the perfect place for an interlude, and it works so well with the pace of the story at that point. Rothfuss just earned that 5th star, in my book.

I've finished my reread. My favourite section is still the first visit to the Elorien. The romcom bit that makes up the next major arc I appreciated more the second time round but the hunt for the dragon chicken felt completely out of place like it had been lifted from some other novel.

His two best friends I still find interchangeable I'm not really sure who they are or what they look like.