Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Excerpt from The Orphan Conspiracies: 29 Conspiracy Theories from The Orphan Trilogy:


“It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am”. –George Washington


Author Dan Brown’s 2003 mega bestseller The Da Vinci Code introduced many in the mainstream to the Illuminati, even though a thousand and one NWO theories had referred to this mysterious group well before the novel ever hit bookstore shelves.

But like the novel, the infamous Illuminati secret society is a mixture of fact and fiction. And probably more fiction than fact.

The (true) Illuminati story begins in Europe with historical records showing the Order of the Illuminati was founded by German professor Adam Weishaupt, in Bavaria, in 1776. The underground organization was a type of breakaway group that separated from European Freemasonry, with most of the founding members being recruited from German Masonic Lodges. In 1785, the order was destroyed from within by agent provocateurs working for the Bavarian Government, which feared secret societies could eventually overthrow the ruling Bavarian Monarchy.

Unfortunately, that’s where the facts and historical evidence surrounding the Illuminati end. Virtually every other supposed piece of Illuminati evidence that conspiracy buffs put forward is debatable at best and pure fantasy at worst.

In the late 1700’s and early 1800’s, there were many prominent figures who surmised that the Illuminati may have somehow survived and masterminded key historical events, including the French Revolution.

But again, there’s no evidence of this.

However, those rumors are nothing compared to more recent rumors, which reflect fear and paranoia.

Between the First and Second World Wars, as fascism advanced, various rampant anti-Semitics said the Illuminati served elite Jewish bankers who, they claimed, were dividing Europe to gain financial control and create a Jewish type of NWO. It’s possible some of these Illuminati theories aided in creating a furtive and fertile environment for the likes of the Nazi Party to assume power so easily.

In the early 21st Century, Illuminati folklore has blossomed, perhaps off the back of The Da Vinci Code, or maybe it has more to do with increases in mental illness cases!

The supposed mind control program Project Monarch, which we covered in the "mind control" section of this group, is closely tied in with modern Illuminati theories. If you Google phrases like mind controlled celebrities or Hollywood stars and the music industry, you’ll find countless conspiracy theories referring to the Illuminati and its numerous “Monarch slaves”.

Music stars in particular are said to be Monarch victims, and common names bandied about include Beyoncé Knowles, Lady Gaga, Nicki Minaj, Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus and Rihanna. What’s more, they all supposedly use Illuminati symbolism in their music videos.

None of the Tinfoil Hatters ever seem to consider that these ancient Illuminati symbols could have simply been hijacked by modern and infinitely less powerful groups. This is what Dan Brown seems to be getting at in his Robert Langdon novel Angels & Demons, when he writes, “It means that when organized philosophies like the Illuminati go out of existence, their symbols remain...available for adoption by other groups. It’s called transference. It’s very common in symbology. The Nazis took the swastika from the Hindus, the Christians adopted the cruciform from the Egyptians”.

Furthermore, any death of an A-List celebrity is always claimed to be Illuminati-orchestrated, according to conspiracy extremists. For example, on February 2, 2014, the day Academy Award-winning actor Philip Seymour Hoffman tragically died, YouTube was awash with hastily compiled videos featuring titles such as “Philip Seymour Hoffman Murdered by Illuminati” and “PHILLIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN…ILLUMINATI SACRIFICE?”

None of those who promote such theories ever seem to question whether the Illuminati still exists. Nor do their followers, it seems. Again, the last confirmation of the Illuminati’s existence was in 1785. Something tells us if they still were around, there would have been at least one verification of their presence in the more than two centuries that have since elapsed.

Nor do these conspiracy theorists ever seem to acknowledge there’s not a shred of evidence to prove Project Monarch exists. Instead, Monarch gets lumped in with the highly documented CIA mind control program MK-Ultra. This is rather deceitful to say the least.

Some celebrities, including Jay-Z, Kim Kardashian and Howard Stern, have fought back against the keyboard warriors who make such videos or write such blogs, by issuing media statements and publicly denying they are members of the Illuminati.

Unfortunately, when such high profile names defend themselves like this, it only seems to add fuel to the Illuminati fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWDoE...

As per the above 2 minute video, the confirmed facts of the Illuminati that all historians agree on is that Adam Weishaupt founded the organization on May 1, 1776 in Bavaria and in 1785 it was officially suppressed by the government. The vast majority of historians also agree that the organization fizzled out after 1785 and therefore everything after that date is totally unconfirmed or rumor, conjecture or paranoia (take your pick).

That does not mean it's impossible for the Illuminati to have continued for almost 230 years in TOTAL secrecy, but it's just worth considering how little confirmed details there are on this much talked about organization...

Here is part 2 to the previously posted video above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiwUH...

Note this video mentions how it was very common for secret societies at the time (18th century) of the Illuminati formation, to pretend they descended from far older societies centuries earlier in order to bolster the myths surrounding the group (just like the Nazis seemed to do).

Maybe this has mislead many modern-day conspiracy theorists who willingly believe that the Illuminati really does have ancient roots (and even off-world roots).

Not to say some or even all of the theories surrounding the Illuminati may not in fact be true (who knows?). But surely it's wise to at least listen to what mainstream historians and skeptics say about the Illuminati before taking on these type of NWO concepts as absolute facts? After all, it was only just a little over a century ago that anti-Semites used the word Illuminati to describe a Jewish NWO - and we all know of the horrors that belief ended up causing to the Jewish people in WW2.

Though many discount the Illuminati, their goals still resonate strong with many politicians, bankers and elite.

Based on what I've been reading in Robison, Weishaupt was a real piece of work. His agenda was getting rid of religion and monarchy but what he really wanted was power.

I think the Illuminati probably took their name from the Illumines which was a French offshoot of the Alumbrados. The Alumbrados was a mildly heretical Christian group in Spain that believed the human soul could be perfected to be on the level with God.

I think the Illuminati used the trappings of perfecting the human soul and human society just like later offshoots used their trappings.

It's hard to be sure about any of this since there's a relatively small amount of documented evidence.

Jim wrote: "It's hard to be sure about any of this since there's a relatively small amount of documented evidence...."

I fully agree Jim. When you research the Illuminati it's surprising how little hard evidence there is to confirm Weishaupt's organization survived at all beyond the late 1700s...Especially given how many references there have been in the media to the organization since Dan Brown brought it to the mainstream's awareness...

The other day I read some guy's rap about the Shards and the Revenants. Supposedly, there are two offshoots of our Bavarian friends with opposing agendas. The Shards want to preserve society as is until it's ready for "the next step," whatever that is. The revenants merely was to consolidate power.

The author claimed to be a third generation member of a Shard. For all I know, he was telling the truth - at least insofar as he knows it. Again, no real evidence.

What we do have is correspondence and some rituals written down by Weishaupt, Knigge, and a few others. I'm not aware of any good evidence of any continuity post-suppression.

I've not come across any convincing evidence either Jim. But if you find any, let me know!

Most of what I know is from Robison. He was pretty good about saying what his sources are. He did have his own point of view. He was a monarchist and probably a fairly normal Christian for his day, as well as being a Mason. He found the Illuminati to be loathsome and tended to see their handiwork all over, including the French Revolution.

I have not found any convincing evidence either.

Well, it's not the Illuminati, but Randy Quaid certainly seems to believe in some sort of conspiracy. Shame he comes across as a deluded old has-been!

In today's news: https://uk.yahoo.com/movies/randy-qua...

"I feel I’ve been observed probably my whole life, before I even realised it. But again, the real question is, who actually runs this system? There are people who think they run the system – and there are certain tools and access to finance, for example. But I believe there is a higher order of powers on this planet. I don’t think humans are ultimately in control. When it comes to what is considered extraterrestrial, or extrahuman, in its origin that actually could exist interdimensionally, for example, then you’re talking about a higher level of consciousness that actually may find it necessary for people like me to play my role." -Sean Stone


Now let's think about just a few words in Sean's comment: "There are people who think they run the system"

I happen to believe those who we think are the elite or in "complete control" are low-mid level wannabes - this includes all world leaders, banking families, royal families. The real power is not so easy to see, nor do I believe is it so destructive.

James said: "I happen to believe those who we think are the elite or in "complete control" are low-mid level wannabes - this includes all world leaders, banking families, royal families. The real power is not so easy to see, nor do I believe is it so destructive."

I feel very much the same way mate, but can you elaborate more on what you mean by the 'power not being so destructive'?
I kind of feel that we're just caught up in a war between the non-human goodies and the badddies (be them aliens, jinn, gods, time travellers, super humans, reptilians, whatever)- but I also feel that the bad guys have us imprisoned in a holding matrix frequency type scenario, whilst the good guys are trying to help us out of it. Hm...

Harry wrote: "I feel very much the same way mate, but can you elaborate more on what you mean by the 'power not being so destructive'?
I kind of feel that we're just caught up in a war between the non-human goodies and the badddies (be them aliens, jinn, gods, time travellers, super humans, reptilians, whatever)- but I also feel that the bad guys have us imprisoned in a holding matrix frequency type scenario, whilst the good guys are trying to help us out of it. Hm..."

I roughly agree, Harry, but feel certain those good guys and bad guys are still about mid-level in terms of the hierarchy (for want of a better word).
Go higher up again, beyond all the battles you mention, and there are some extremely cool (low-profile) individuals who only wish to empower every human and spread the wealth and knowledge.
And that makes sense right? I mean, for the ones who know the real secrets of the universe, they must surely be balanced and compassionate and egoless.

Meanwhile, the Kissingers of the world join secret societies and elitist cabals thinking they are at the top of the pyramid, when really they're near its foundations. There are little-known individuals wayyyyyy above Kissinger-types who privately laugh at these so-called "power brokers".
As Sean Stone said "There are people who think they run the system"...And when they think such things and drop clues of this belief in speeches or books, then well-meaning but gullible researchers automatically assume that such figures must be uber-powerful.

Think of the well-known concept of a New World Order, a powerful elite, but flip it where this small faction use their power to assist Mankind.

And so I believe this is why the evil version of a New World Order never seems to eventuate. As hard as elitists rulers are working to enslave humanity, there is an unknown elite opposition working just as hard to free humanity.

It ain't one-sided and pure evil at the top, folks.

"I mean, for the ones who know the real secrets of the universe, they must surely be balanced and compassionate and egoless."

Absolutely. Brilliantly written. You've given me hope. :)

Yeah, I find every researcher who investigates these things goes thru the fear/paranoia/depression stage. That's natural as there are some really bad things being orchestrated on the world stage. But then when you enter the next stage and start seeing anomalies in the there is no hope-style conspiracies, you eventually develop a clearer picture of the workings of the world.

And those workings, in my opinion, are essentially about divisions and diversity. Meaning, they ain't all in just one club at the top (those who belong to one club are several clicks down from the top). Those at the actual top who have real knowledge about the history of this Universe are too damn cool to ever belong to any club.

So to bring this thread back to the Illuminati...
As I wrote elsewhere (but I feel is worth repeating here): how do we know all those elitists are united? Using the term Illuminati heavily implies these elite rulers are all together and on the same page (like Adam Weishaupt's original members were).
This term and concept allows for no nuances like for example there being much infighting in the various networks of the global elite.
Nor does the term and concept of the "Illuminati" give the impression that there could be numerous groups of individuals (some secretive, some not) who all have different and even opposing agendas.

Allow me to also repeat a statement from historian Professor Rick Spence's afterword to mine and Lance's book The Orphan Conspiracies:

"Maybe the most dangerous thing about the “Illuminati” isn’t that such a master cabal has ever existed, but that some people believe it should and wreak havoc under the delusion they run the world."

I think Rick brings up an intriguing counter theory that should be thrown into the mix of possibilities. Maybe none of these secret societies run the world, or maybe in some cases they don't even exist anymore like the Illuminati perhaps, but certain people try to act it out on the world stage anyway...For example, I've heard Henry Kissinger loves to promote his New World Order idealogies in private talks (and perpetuate the idea that he and his Bilderberg cronies completely rule the world) even though many of Kissinger's contemporaries or even senior leaders above him apparently think his theories are a load of hogwash. Likewise, maybe some conspiracy theorists may inadvertently be part of this illusory game by being super fearful of the MINORITY ruling elite and stating or implying we are all doomed, instead of recognizing that we "the people" are the 99% and can take absolute power anytime we decide to...

If say 5 million people in a mass protest rock up to the White House or the Pentagon and demand certain actions like ending wars or stopping bank bailouts, could "they" suppress that many? And if 5 million people demanded to walk inside the White House or the Pentagon or the CIA HQ, could anyone kill or otherwise stop that many innocent citizens???

I'm not saying I know the answers to those hypothetical questions, but I just don't think the answers are the no-brainer some would have us believe when they state or imply it's impossible to overpower regimes. Revolutions have happened throughout history and will continue to. Corrupt governments can either be toppled or restructed by their citizens who afterall hold the true power (due to their numbers).

I mean, surely there has to be a limit to the power of the 1% and maybe some who promote certain fear-based conspiracies exaggerate the elite's abilities while underestimating people power.

Boy, you're on fire today mate. Go Morcan!

It's a very good point you make about 'the elite' perhaps being 'the elites', who don't necessarily have the same ideologies at heart. The more I go down the conspiracy rabbit hole, the more I tend to agree with those sentiments. I feel as though we're seen as simple cattle to the 'super-non-humans' (or whoever the hell they are), and if we're not caught up in, and being used in, a war between secret parties, then we are most certainly in a game being played by them. The analogy of chess isn't necessarily too much of an analogy.

And as you say James, things become really simple when the masses see the same truth and unite.

I have done some research on the Illuminati and the historical evidence regarding their continued existence and influence, given that survivors of ritual abuse who claim to be victims of intentional mind control programming by the Illuminati have been coming forward since the 1980's. The consequences of these abuses have affected my own family, and me.

http://savemeimyours.com/2/post/2015/...

Mikhayla wrote: "I have done some research on the Illuminati and the historical evidence regarding their continued existence and influence, given that survivors of ritual abuse who claim to be victims of intentiona..."

Checked out your post Mikhayla, but cannot see any hard evidence in there. You jump decades or even close to a century at a time from the original Illuminati org (and the only historically proven one) in late 1700s to 1813 to 1884 and then to 20th Century stuff with the Nazis and now the 21st Century.

All pretty tenuous connections in my opinion.

I believe the key thing needed to accurately assess Illiminati theories (i.e. as to whether Weishaupt's original organization continued with the original principles) is to differentiate between "Illuminati-style groups" and THE ILLUMINATI. If the former, then certainly there would be a certain amount of cross-pollination from any powerful underground group like Weishaupt's and so it's entirely conceivable other secret societies (such as modern Masons or Skulls n Bones or the Nazis etc) could have picked up a few of their principles. And this could explain the survivors mentioning Illuminati-style techniques. Therefore, most conspiracy theorists who talk about the Illuminati are actually using a generic term or an umbrella term to describe secret groups.

However, if you are talking about a direct and unabated continuation of Weishaupt's group (again, the only group ever to be called the Illuminati proven to exist) then much more evidence is needed. Not saying it definitely does not exist, but I know which way I'd be betting given the lack of evidence offered...

Another thing to consider is the rather convenient Illuminati theory (which says just one group controls the entire world) could be the perfect front to distract people from the real issue of various sinister secret groups of the elite influencing the world.
And if so, have you considered that the survivors who mention the popular Illuminati theory may have received this as part of their mind control programming? Meaning, could it be a false doctrine being spread by the real global elite?

Another thing that must be kept in mind for any serious researcher is that various groups have been labelled The Illuminati over the centuries who clearly had no link to the original group. One example is virtually all successful Jewish peoples and groups were labelled the Illuminati around the 1920s and 1930s by the untold anti-Semites in Europe at the time. However, the Nazis (who were obviously direct opposition to the Jewish community) have also been called the Illuminati or part of the supposed continuation. So it gets very convoluted the deeper you explore this entire theory...

Again, I'm not saying I'm definitely right here and invite you or anyone else to present hard evidence you think you may have to prove Weishaupt's Illuminati still exists. I've got no dog in this fight and I'd be delighted to be proven wrong...And actually if the Illuminati has existed quietly and undetected for centuries and does control the whole world I think that'd be fascinating and the biggest story of all time.

James,

In fact I do agree that the whole propaganda regarding who the Illuminati are (they are the global elite, they are the Jews, they are...), is a sort of intentional propaganda meant to muddy the waters and turn the journey of survivors into a revolving door. Survivors leave, and find that there are people who say they believe in the Illuminati, who they believe abused them. So they do their research and look for advocates, only to find that research is tedious and filled with mostly trash, and cons. Yes, I believe that tales of the Illuminati are a part of their brainwashing. It is in fact my experience that this is true. I believe that most Illuminati conspiracy theorists, are "the Illuminati," at least they are the group responsible for the abuse of survivors.

Even in my research it would seem that the quasi-Masonic occult order connection is likely a reorganization of the original Illuminati. Leopold Engel's Illuminati in 1880 was a reorganization. I do not believe there is a group, the Illuminati, who runs the world in the shadows. I believe there is a group who utilizes the Masonic rites, forms quasi-Masonic occult orders, tortures minds, and has a political agenda consistent with the Nazis, consistently, from the time they accused the Jews of being the Illuminati, through to today. Perhaps their only connection to Weishaupt is that they borrowed his favorite hiding place, the organization of the Masons, and the name, Illuminati.

I guess what I am saying is that the "Illuminati" exists, they are Nazis. Just call them Nazis, and we can agree that they exist. They are Nazis who tell us that the global elite are the Illuminati, and so we should take them all down and let them run the show.

Oops, very poor writing. I mean that the Nazis believe that we should let them run the show... and sheesh, can I even dig my way out of this one?

Mikhayla wrote: "Oops, very poor writing. I mean that the Nazis believe that we should let them run the show... and sheesh, can I even dig my way out of this one?"

I just think people should either drop the word the Illuminati as it is very misleading or else acknowledge it is just a general umbrella term to vaguely describe some kind of global elite or NWO-style force in action.

Until then, the mass public (who don't have the time or inclination to research the facts) will remain confused and possibly distracted by the word Illuminati with all the conflicting theories surrounding that word...

I think it is important to recognize that there is a group of people intentionally spewing Illuminati propaganda and misinformation for the purpose of covering their tracks as criminals guilty of gross human atrocities. They are Nazis, who use this propaganda to trap and re-trap their mind controlled victims. They do have a political agenda, Nazis do have a political agenda. It is useful to state that Nazis have been accusing groups of being the Illuminati since, before they were called Nazis. Even before they were called Nazis they were and are involved in quasi-Masonic occult activities along the lines of what the Illuminati once was. In fact their organization is so much like that of the original Illuminati that if there is such a thing as an active Illuminati today, they are it.

Nazi is getting to be a more vague term as time goes on. While their numbers are dwindling, there are still original Nazis and presumably followers. Then there are unrelated groups that embrace the ideology, or at least the parts that appeal to them.

I think there are lots of groups in the shadows trying to accumulate power but I don't believe in any quasi-omnipotent group running things from the shadows under any name. I do believe there are wealthy individuals with entirely too much influence and some are not open about it. Maybe that's just semantics.

Illuminati and Nazis are both way too confusing titles for me.
If you say someone is with the Illuminati, what does that mean considering the organization ended in 1785 and hasn't been officially heard of since?
Likewise with the Nazi party. A fascist or Neo Nazi would be a better description for someone of that ilk in the modern era. If the Nazi fascists continued on in their mission (which I happen to believe they did) they became something else and merged into other governments or secret elite groups and therefore they're no longer with the Nazi party which obviously no longer exists.

I fully agree with what Jim wrote in this thread: "I think there are lots of groups in the shadows trying to accumulate power but I don't believe in any quasi-omnipotent group running things from the shadows under any name."

And that's another problem with a vague umbrella term like the Illuminati - it implies secret rulers are all totally unified and belong to just one organization. Far too simplistic for me - it's like an idea that'd exist in a B-Grade movie script...

Jim wrote: "Nazi is getting to be a more vague term as time goes on. While their numbers are dwindling, there are still original Nazis and presumably followers. Then there are unrelated groups that embrace t..."

Jim,
The reason I believe they exist in an organized underground is that there are survivors from all over the globe who have had the exact same experiences of abuse by a group calling itself "the Illuminati" they have German speaking Nazis at the higher ranking leadership. They experience the exact same atrocities in the interest of mind control. It is very common that they have an alter that holds strict Nazi ideology.

Edward wrote: "Terminology and titles have been successfully changed to effect confusion. The Nazi's (old name) seem to be trying to expand their influence in the US, using the excuse that Obama has been just ano..."

Edward,

My every wise Edward; Yup... that's exactly it. "Christian" extremists can become the old "Positive Christianity" of the 1930's easily. Right wing extremists, have always held Nazism under their wing. How different is right wing extremism of today from the old school Nazis? Not very.

James Morcan wrote: "Illuminati and Nazis are both way too confusing titles for me.
If you say someone is with the Illuminati, what does that mean considering the organization ended in 1785 and hasn't been officially ..."

They exist as an organized underground, as evidenced by the exact same experience of survivors of their underground. They are not the global elite. If they were the globe would already be ruled by a Fascist dictatorship, but it is their objective, just as it was when their hero Hitler had his day.

Then again, to add to your confusion; generational survivors come from vastly different religious backgrounds. Their families (generationally involved) are Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Pagan...

but they all experience abusers with names like "Greenbaum, Dr. White, Dr. Black, Dr. Green." They all experience spin programming, being buried alive, ritual perpetrators in robes, and costumes, the creation of demon alters, animal alters, and "alien abductions" all elaborately staged. They experience cannibalism... all with quasi-Masonic structuring of leadership and involvement.

They experience electroshock and elaborate torture in hospitals, laboratories, and government buildings, and bunkers, as well as cemeteries, and homes...

Are we talking about the illuminati here or the Ku Klux Klan. They are sounding similar to me!

Laureen wrote: "Are we talking about the illuminati here or the Ku Klux Klan. They are sounding similar to me!"

That is because they are, Laureen. It is my theory, given my research, that the Illuminati inspired, if not evolved into, an underground quasi-Masonic group that gave rise to the Nazis, and continue today. They spew nutty Illuminati conspiracy theory, accusing their enemies of being leaders of the Illuminati, as a way of distracting the truth about their existence.

Laureen wrote: "Are we talking about the illuminati here or the Ku Klux Klan. They are sounding similar to me!"

I think you're onto something, Laureen. Almost every other group has been called the Illuminati so why not throw the KKK into the mix as well...

Time to retire this Illuminati word I say...it means nothing anymore...nothing clear that is.

I'm willing to throw the word away, if we can still discuss "their" victims. What do we call "them" then? And what do we say about the fact their all their victims say they are abused by "them"?

Mikhayla wrote: "I'm willing to throw the word away, if we can still discuss "their" victims. What do we call "them" then? And what do we say about the fact their all their victims say they are abused by "them"?"

I think we cannot assume mind control victims would be told the ultimate truths. I'd say it's safer to assume they would be given disinformation rather than facts. It's the equivalent of thinking the Nazis would have told the victims in the Holocaust what their ultimate agenda was, if you think about it.

Plus, we must consider that these mind control victims may have heard of the Illuminati before being victimized (as most in the modern world have) and then put two and two together...They may be using the general/vague Illuminati definition rather than the continuation of Weishaupt's organization (which would be the only real Illuminati).

Also, you never responded to a previous comment I asked you in this thread - in case you missed it here it is again:

Another thing to consider is the rather convenient Illuminati theory (which says just one group controls the entire world) could be the perfect front to distract people from the real issue of various sinister secret groups of the elite influencing the world.
And if so, have you considered that the survivors who mention the popular Illuminati theory may have received this as part of their mind control programming? Meaning, could it be a false doctrine being spread by the real global elite?

Yes, James, you are right on the mark. In fact it would seem that survivors are intentionally being fed lies regarding the Illuminati, and made to fear "them," then being told who "they" are. The Jews were the first to be accused of being the Illuminati, as you pointed out. This was insanity given that Jews were not even permitted to be members of the original Illuminati. Yes, I do believe that survivors are being told that the Illuminati is responsible for the abuse they suffer. If they are being taken to hospitals, military bases, laboratories, government buildings etc... it is understandable why they would come to believe "the Illuminati" really are the global elite.

I do not believe in the theory that the Illuminati is one group that controls the world. I believe this belief is pushed on survivors. It keeps survivors afraid and hopeless, and enraged at all the people their manipulators want them to be enraged with. It also serves to distract people, as you say. Once these survivors start to speak about their abuse, they sound nuts in their conviction that their abusers are the Illuminati in the form of the global elite. Oh yes, I do believe that survivors have received this as part of their mind control programming. It most certainly is false doctrine being spread by those who are abusing them. The question is, who is abusing them? The only absolute and consistent connection (even historically) is the Nazi ideology and influence. And historically this goes back to the quasi-Masonic occult orders that came into being even before they were called Nazis.

Mikhayla wrote: "The question is, who is abusing them? The only absolute and consistent connection (even historically) is the Nazi ideology and influence. And historically this goes back to the quasi-Masonic occult orders that came into being even before they were called Nazis.
..."

Absolutely regarding the Nazis and the Nazi mindset. It's wrong to assume because they were (officially) defeated in 1945 that their methods or (fascist) agenda would vanish.
Check out this section of the group called The Fourth Reich which puts forward mine and Lance's beliefs that fascism is alive and well and many of our society's worst crimes (including mind control) are being done by modern fascists:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

It is the fact that it was a quasi-Masonic black occult order behind the rise of the Nazis, just as survivors experience the group today, that makes me want to call them the Illuminati. The organization of the group that is abusing survivors is organized just as the original Illuminati, and the Black Order of the Nazi SS. It is important to understand this. They do not just meet in anti-government militia rallies of the Aryan Nation. They hide in a Masonic style rank leveled secret society, with secret handshakes and "Secret Chiefs."

Being a member of, or recruiting for the Illuminati was made a capital offense. Perhaps the Illuminati thought it a neat trick to accuse their would be enemies of being the Illuminati. Perhaps they are like a bully accusing their victim of the bad behavior they themselves are responsible for.

There has not been other life imprints in the known universe for some 14 Billion years. Surprisingly, the correct math, which is based on probability not possibility, says the unknown universe is more like the known than not so.

The more interesting and far reaching question is, what applies if we are the only rock that holds life. IMHO, this is connected with the premise, is the universe infinite - or absolutely finite. Such a starting preamble changes everything.

Joseph wrote: "There has not been other life imprints in the known universe for some 14 Billion years. Surprisingly, the correct math, which is based on probability not possibility, says the unknown universe is m..."

"...is the universe infinite..." Of course it is! Can you possibly imagine it any other way? No, it is not possible. Good luck with that.

What factors impress that the uni is infinite? We know of nothing in the universe that is infinite, and all available imprints, such the BBT, the expanding universe, says 'finite' and that once the universe, as with all its components, never existed.

Joseph wrote: "There has not been other life imprints in the known universe for some 14 Billion years. Surprisingly, the correct math, which is based on probability not possibility, says the unknown universe is more like the known than not so.

The more interesting and far reaching question is, what applies if we are the only rock that holds life. IMHO, this is connected with the premise, is the universe infinite - or absolutely finite. Such a starting preamble changes everything. ..."

Joseph, you mentioned in another discussion thread that you believe Genesis says the Universe is finite. Can you provide any biblical quotes supporting your interpretation of the Old Testament/Torah?

I had a dream. Before my head hit the pillow I began falling (or rising) from my body, through the top of the house, I could see my neighborhood, the city, the, planet, the solar system, the universe warp speed... I fell through the universe, on an on. Finally I decided it must end and imagined reaching the end. I imagined it as if I had been in a giant ball and came to the edge. Then I began to dig, and understood that if the density was too great for me to pass through it would still have thickness. I understood and returned home. I landed on my pillow again. Unfortunately it had taken me the whole night to understand this and my alarm went off. I had fallen through the universe the whole night. The universe is infinite.

Now, as for the Illuminati and mind control, this is finite, if I have anything to say about it.

A very interesting discussion. I realize it is about the Illuminati and I may appear to digress from the main topic but I feel that my comments are interconnected.

There has always been Secret Societies attached to all traditional religions. I believe those secret societies were mostly examining Gnostic streams of thought and that this "secret knowledge" was thought to be beyond the common man. Elitist, of course, but that was the way of the times. As time passed, it is not surprising that some used this knowledge to feel superior and corruption eventuated. It happens in all hierarchies. But not everybody in those hierarchies participates.

Take politics. At the risk of losing some of my friends on this site, I have to say that there is an underlying hatred of Capitalism within this thread that concerns me. Nothing is pure about Capitalism as is the case with any other political system. There is good and bad in all systems because there is good and bad in every person. Motives for decision making is the defining judgement.

Within religious organizations, we will find both good and bad. I have yo say that I find Gnosticism the only belief system that is believable and cannot harbour sinister motives because every individual is responsible for his/her own behavior and also the consequences of that behavior whether in this life or another. There is no evaluating old text and trying to interpret what was meant by modern interpretations of so called wise men. Yes, undoubtedly there were wise humans in the past as there is today but individually we have to come up with our own truths or beliefs.

What makes sense to me may not make sense to you but please read www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm and tell me what you think. I hope I have copied that web site correctly. It is a short history of Gnosticism. I think in this debate James is on the right track with his thinking although he doesn't espouse to Gnosticism.

Great point. Secret societies and religious organizations dating back to the ancient Greeks and Egyptians have sequestered secret knowledge and illuminated those select few who they deemed worthy of receiving it. Plato gives an excellent example of this knowledge after discussing his meetings with the ancient Egyptian priest. Also, ancient Greeks and Egyptians used their ancient knowledge of technology and science to amaze and persuade people to come into their temple or place of worship.

Thank you Stephen. You have raised important points also. Egypt was the font of knowledge way back then and my reading has lead me to understand that people seeking knowledge, especially the Greeks and English, but also other European nations, travelled to Egypt in the hope they would be admitted as students to this knowledge. How amazing that as time passed the Middle East became corrupted by individuals seeking personal power over the common man and began taking knowledge away instead of imparting it!

Greece is always espoused to be the seat of all learning but my understanding is that the Greeks' thirst for knowledge was a result of what was happening in Egypt. Remember? I think that was the stage Greeks started delving into alchemy? Of course I believe they were misrepresenting what alchemy really meant. Turning metal into gold? No. I believe it meant turning impurity into purity as in body, mind and spirit.

This thread is about the Illuminati, which infiltrated the Masons in 1776. There is a group that is responsible for torturing children and others in the interest of creating mind controlled slaves, like the ones they created to achieve the Nazi rise to power in Germany, according to my research supporting this thesis. They tell their victims they are the Illuminati.

Yeah, secret societies have existed since history as we know it. The Illuminati is a secret society which infiltrated the Masons, which are a sort of secret society. The point in discussing the Illuminati is that the group that points their accusing finger at the Jews, the global elite... and anyone they want to turn into enemies in their propaganda campaign, are still at it, and they torture people to achieve their goal.

Mikhayla wrote: "This thread is about the Illuminati, which infiltrated the Masons in 1776. There is a group that is responsible for torturing children and others in the interest of creating mind controlled slaves,..."

Nothing I said in my post was excusing the actions of the Illuminati but I was trying to convey that hatred usually hurts the wrong people. The perpetrators of violence within the Illuminati are not looking to be enlightened and they couldn't care less about y our opinion of them however right you may be.

That is why I promote a different course so that those affected by the likes of power mongers know not to get involved in any way with their ideology which is what they use to recruit victims. If we seek knowledge and gain from it, we can avoid being dragged into their webs which will eventually render their power seeking useless as they will have no members.

However the Earth was never meant to be perfect and people were never meant to be perfect. There would be no purpose for our existence if there wasn't something we had to experience and learn from. Hatred is a poor course to take, but that is only my opinion. There is nothing we can prove in our discussions here but we can contemplate what may improve the lot of human kind amongst other things. I am not free of feeling hate when I learn of some atrocity but I know it is something for me to work on as war doesn't achieve anything but human suffering, regret, mental illness, loss of life, grief and the list goes on.

Madonna just released a new album and on it is a song called "Illuminati"...
I'm pretty sure she's poking fun at conspiracy theorists who believe the Illuminati is controlling everything, although I cannot be sure...
Anyway, here are the lyrics:

It’s not Jay-Z and Beyoncé;
It’s not Nicki or Lil Wayne;
It’s not Oprah and Obama,
the Pope and Rihanna;
Queen Elizabeth, or Kanye.

It’s not pentagrams or witchcraft;
It’s not triangles or stacks of cash;
Black magic or Gaga, Gucci or Prada
Riding on the Golden Calf.

The all-seeing eye is watching tonight,
That’s what it is: Truth in the Light.
The all-seeing eye is watching tonight,
Nothing to hide, secrets in sight.

It’s like everybody in this party’s
Shining like Illuminati. (Oh-wo-oh-oh-wo-oh-oh…)
It’s like everybody in this party’s
Shining like Illuminati. (Oh-wo-oh-oh-wo-oh-oh…)

It’s the Enlightenment that started it all;
The Founding Fathers wrote it down on a wall,
And now the Media’s misleading us all:
“Turn right, and turn wrong.”

It’s time to dance and turn this dark into somethin’;
So let the fire burn, this music is bumpin’.
We’re gonna live forever, love never dies,
It starts tonight…

Rihanna don’t know the New World Order;
It’s not platinum-encrypted commerce;
It’s not Isis or the Phoenix;
The Pyramids of Egypt;

Don’t make it into something sordid.

It’s not Steve Jobs or Bill Gates;
It’s not the Google of United States;
It’s not Bieber or Lebron, Clinton, or a bomb;
Or anyone you love to hate.

The all-seeing eye is watching tonight,
That’s what it is: Truth in the Light.
The all-seeing eye is watching tonight,
Nothing to hide, secrets in sight.

It’s like everybody in this party’s
Shining like Illuminati. (Oh-wo-oh-oh-wo-oh-oh…)
It’s like everybody in this party’s
Shining like Illuminati. (Oh-wo-oh-oh-wo-oh-oh…)

You know that everything that glitters ain’t gold;
So let the music take you out of control,
It’s time to feel it in your body and soul:
Come on, let’s go…

We’re gonna dance and turn the dark into somethin’;
So let the fire burn, this music is bumpin’.
We’re gonna live forever, love never dies,
It starts tonight…

Madonna sounds like one cool chic! I never realized that before. Go Madonna!