Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Excerpt from The Orphan Conspiracies: 29 Conspiracy Theories from The Orphan Trilogy:


If this entire conspiracy theory on drug wars is wrong, fictitious, over-egged or, heaven forbid, just plain loony, another scenario is very possible: this scenario is that drugs are simply one of the many fortuitous and spontaneous spoils of war, and while the global elite may not actually be starting wars to financially benefit from drug-trafficking they sure as hell do alright out of it.

Even in mineral-rich and oil-rich war-torn regions like the Middle East, illicit drugs and the huge profits to be made from them are a nice added bonus, wouldn’t you agree?

And even if there is no ulterior motive surrounding the War on Drugs – a very big IF – the bottom line is the drug prohibition program hasn’t remotely worked; the international drug trade is expanding, not contracting, and drug usage is increasing worldwide.

We don’t remotely support drug use. The horrors that illicit drugs inflict on individuals and on society in general are there for all to see.

However, the problem is one that may be with us forever because it does seem that drugs and profits cannot be separated, and history shows that where large profits are to be made, corruption flourishes.

Meanwhile, excuse us for one moment. It’s time for us to take our medication again!

Results below on the group's recent (udated) poll which asked members: Do you believe society would be better off if recreational drugs were decriminalized?

258 members (or 63.7%) voted BETTER OFF
78 members (or 19.3%) voted UNSURE
69 members (or 17%) voted WORSE OFF

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...

There are some grey areas but generally speaking, drugs should be decriminalized, because when you create a law, you also create a crime, and when you create more crimes, you get more criminals. Moreover the prohibition of drugs that are now widely used brings people into unnecessary conflict with the state, making it more authoritarian, and more intrusive in people's personal lives.

Saying that drugs should be decriminalized or even made completely legal, is indeed not the same as saying that drug use is a good thing. Even relatively benign drugs like cannabis can have horrible consequences if used to excess or by the wrong individuals (e.g. tragic incidences of psychosis in young people). But whether drugs should be forbidden, and whether they are a good thing, are two different questions and should be approached with logic and a lack of emotion.

I agree with Mike.

When we banned alcohol in this country, we created a black market that lead to unprecedented wealth and power for organized crime.

The prohibition on drugs does the same thing. Drug lords used to run Colombia, maybe they still do. They are also a power to rival the government in Mexico.

While I'm not personally a fan of many drugs, I'd rather see them them regulated and taxed so abuse problems can be treated like a health issue instead of a criminal issue. We could virtually eliminate heroin overdoses if people could know what they were getting.

My dream is to some day walk into Walgreen's and buy a couple of grams of mushrooms or a couple of hits of blotter for the weekend and know I'm getting something safe. I'm not sure that will happen in my lifetime but I also never expected any states to legalize weed.

Agree about the reduction in overdoses if heroin was allowed at free injecting clinics--clean needles too. Also crime would be massively reduced, as it is hard to support such an expensive habit without crime or prostitution. In addition, methadone, which is given to heroin addicts to replace heroin, is incredibly damaging to the health--far more than heroin itself.

But yes, corruption is rife, and with all drugs, both police and other law enforcers are in on the game. I'm for decriminalising everything. It would get rid of those dodgy backyard labs too.

Jeannie wrote: "I believe that the drug trade is a close bed-fellow to arms trading & human trafficking, etc. It seems that decriminalization of drugs & offering addiction treatment, rather than incarcerating addicts would be a step in a better direction..."

Makes sense to me.

Doesn't make a difference if it's legal or not, people will still take them. So if you know people will take them surely it makes sense to make it as safe as possible, so that if someone buys ecstasy for instance, it is actually what they say, not something else. As long as people are not harming others then it should be up to them to choose, like alcohol. Better to have it in the hands of government where they can regulate it and tax it rather than with criminal gangs... But that's just my opinion...

There are so many benefits to legalizing drugs, especially marijuana. Too many to name in fact. I am pro-legalization and decriminalization of all drugs.

Sara, I agree about medicinal marijuana but not as a recreational drug. I was young in the 70s and whilst I never partook, I was friends with many who did. The percentage of those who developed psychotic delusions, schizophrenia or other mind altering side effects were much, much higher among weed smokers.

My comtemporaries were in total denial. I smoked tobacco and was constantly told that marijuana was so safe and tobacco was do poisonous. Well one of those was true!

Lauren, marijuana should be legalized recreationally. There is this big hype about legalizing the drug and we are taking away from talking about problems that are actually effecting our people. Tobacco and alcohol are already legalized, those you can overdose from. Marijuana has a 0% chance of overdose. It is a proven fact that people who smoke marijuana and get into a car are not more likely to crash as if they did not consume any marijuana. Tobacco and alcohol are different, you can overdose and they obviously affect your driving considering alcohol is related to 10% of car accidents worldwide. Everyone should have the freedom of choice to do what they want with their bodies, since it is not affecting anyone else. Because it really is not. It is their fault to choose to use it recklessly. 94% of people who try marijuana for the first time do not get addicted. And 91% of marijuana users do not go onto using any "more dangerous" drugs like cocaine and heroine. So marijuana is not a gateway drug, you cannot overdose, it does not cause accidents, and it is not addictive. What more can you ask? Well. Health benefits I'm sure! Once again, it is the users choice to use this in moderation and not recklessly, but there are health benefits to using the drug. Marijuana reliefs pain in cancer patients, and prevents other numerous diseases that I do not have time to name. I've proven my point I believe. That will be for you and others to judge.

Sara wrote: "Lauren, marijuana should be legalized recreationally. There is this big hype about legalizing the drug and we are taking away from talking about problems that are actually effecting our people. Tob..."

Well might you say that you can't overdose on Marijuana. I have to disagree. Many of the "parties" I went to made me feel like a total outsider which I didn't mind at all. The weed smokers sat in a ring and became almost intelligible with lots of silence between mutterings and lots of giggling when someone muttered something.

My now husband decided to try the stuff and it upset his stomach so much, he spent the rest of the night in the lavatory. I have no idea where the statistic came from that says that marijuana does not cause accidents. Sounds more like hopeful thinking.

The type of marijuana used for medicinal purposes, as I understand it, is different from the variety smoked. I very much agree with the use of marijuana for the relief of pain. I absolutely do not condone drink driving.

Lauren, I feel as if your arguments are coming from a personal standpoint instead of a factual one. You say how it is a addictive and gateway drug? Then prove it please. Try giving facts instead of personal experiences that may or may not have happened - not to call you a liar but nobody can trust anyone's opinions or perspectives anymore.

Sara wrote: "Lauren, I feel as if your arguments are coming from a personal standpoint instead of a factual one. You say how it is a addictive and gateway drug? Then prove it please. Try giving facts instead of..."

You are quite justified in having an opposing point of view. I am a little surprised, though, that you have do much faith in statistics. Statistics are commonly quoted to prove a point but statistics can be do easily manipulated to prove your own personal viewpoint.

I am not going to prove to you that my personal story is true other than to say that my personal religion is honesty. Take it or leave it, I don't really care except I think it is always important to provide an alternative viewpoint and that was all I was trying to do - not have a slanging match.

Lauren lauren... You are not providing any evidence or real arguments. What you said was false. You can't argue proven facts and statistics no matter what you say. A fact is a fact. Grass is green - you cannot debunk that. The sky is blue - same thing. Religion has NOTHING to do with politics and science. But that is a whole other argument. You need to separate your personal and religious beliefs and go elsewhere. Because I bet money that if we were in a courtroom then people would take my side because I'm the only one actually providing a real argument.

Sara wrote: "Lauren lauren... You are not providing any evidence or real arguments. What you said was false. You can't argue proven facts and statistics no matter what you say. A fact is a fact. Grass is green ..."

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion as am I. BTW, my name is Laureen.

I'm sorry Laureen for addressing you the wrong way. And it's fine to have an opinion but you cannot expect others to take your side without any true facts. Don't take this personally.

Sara wrote: "I'm sorry Laureen for addressing you the wrong way. And it's fine to have an opinion but you cannot expect others to take your side without any true facts. Don't take this personally."

Thank you Sara, but I don't think you have any facts either!

Laureen you are ridiculous! I'm the only one giving facts!

Sara, you sound like the bully in the school yard!

Ah I do love a friendly debate... Regardless, it does appear most Undergrounders believe society would be better off if recreational drugs were decriminalized. (56.8% if our poll result is accurate).

Laureen not really, I sound like a passionate and realistic debater.

Sara wrote: "Laureen not really, I sound like a passionate and realistic debater."

Well, Sara, if I am ridiculous, then you are an idiot. Now I can claim I am a passionate and realistic debater. Lol.

Laureen prove that you are a good debater because right now you aren't proving that to anyone

Says you.

Lance Morcan wrote: "Ah I do love a friendly debate... Regardless, it does appear most Undergrounders believe society would be better off if recreational drugs were decriminalized. (56.8% if our poll result is accurate)."

It depends, doesn't it Lance, if the majority of Undergrounders have a vested interest in decriminalizing drugs. Like they could get stoned more often with little dificulty and it would bring the price of drugs down too as there would be more commercial competition. Now please, I am not tagging everyone who believes that drugs should be decriminalised with the same brush.

The point I make is that statistics always depend on what section of the community is canvassed for their opinion.

Finally, my favourite quote: "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect". - Mark Twain.

I don't do drugs...and I have lost people to drugs...so I'm not naive to their dangers...

However what concerns me is tens of millions worldwide are being locked up for "victimless crimes" - meaning, they did not deal drugs, they simply possessed drugs. That to me is very wrong and one of the biggest issues facing society right now as it eventually creates many hardened criminals due to innocent non-aggressive people being thrust into the prison system. So this debate is a human rights issue.

, therefore I am in favor of decriminalization.

James Morcan wrote: "I don't do drugs...and I have lost people to drugs...so I'm not naive to their dangers...

However what concerns me is tens of millions worldwide are being locked up for "victimless crimes" - meani..."

Thank you, finally someone with common sense.

Laureen wrote: "Sara wrote: "Laureen not really, I sound like a passionate and realistic debater."

Well, Sara, if I am ridiculous, then you are an idiot. Now I can claim I am a passionate and realistic debater. Lol."

How am I an idiot for providing facts? If anything, that's a sign of intelligence.

Laureen wrote: "Sara wrote: "Laureen not really, I sound like a passionate and realistic debater."

Well, Sara, if I am ridiculous, then you are an idiot. Now I can claim I am a passionate and realistic debater. Lol."

Additionally, you are 66 and calling a 13 year old an idiot. Where did your maturity go?

Only 13? That may make you one of the youngest Undergrounders...And a bright one at that. thanks for joining the group.

Sara it would be wise when addressing marijuana to consider the quality. You think that it does not make people psychotic, and Laureen is wrong about other side effects but not all plants are grown the same. My parents were drug dealers who used to sell cannabis, and yes they got stoned on it when they held 'pot parties' with people they sold it to. Yes there are health benefit if used in very small amounts. But data alone is not a good argument. Especially if you don't have any experience around it.

Kelly wrote: "Sara it would be wise when addressing marijuana to consider the quality. You think that it does not make people psychotic, and Laureen is wrong about other side effects but not all plants are grown..."

Makes sense, Kelly.
According to what I've read, it's scientifically proven that pot causes brain abnormalities and even permanent brain damage...

Here are news articles from the Journal of Neuroscience and others reporting recent studies conducted at Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School which all show significant brain abnormalities in even casual marijuana smokers:

Casual Marijuana Use Linked to Brain Abnormalities - "First study to show effects of small time use; more “joints” equal more damage" -- http://www.northwestern.edu/newscente...

Harvard Scientists Studied the Brains of Pot Smokers, and the Results Don't Look Good -- http://mic.com/articles/87743/harvard...

However, taking such drugs should not be classed as criminal behavior in my opinion. It's foolish at worst, and a disease when addiction forms, but to throw people in jail who have never dealt drugs and only ever harmed themselves, seems totally wrong to me.

Little wrote: "Agree about the reduction in overdoses if heroin was allowed at free injecting clinics--clean needles too. Also crime would be massively reduced, as it is hard to support such an expensive habit without crime or prostitution. In addition, methadone, which is given to heroin addicts to replace heroin, is incredibly damaging to the health--far more than heroin itself. ..."

I concur.

Also, once legalized the government can tax drug industries...Currently, by making them illegal drugs are one of the biggest if not the biggest black market economies (worth trillions of dollars annually) that currently only criminals and the likes of the CIA/MI6 make any money off.

It's also been proven that hashish (as opposed to skunk, which is also opposed to old fashioned weed) has zero problems, as a live Channel 4 (UK) documentary showed last year.

So yeah, it's about the different types and the different people that use them.

Self choice should not be illegal. End of.

Should we help drug addicts? Yes of course.

Should they be criminals? No. Of course not.

Decriminalisation seems the only sensible way forward; especially when you look at how much the CIA and others have had in the whole sorry business.

There have been zero fatalities caused by marijuana to my knowledge.

Harry wrote: "Self choice should not be illegal. End of. ..."

Yeah, punishing those who only take drugs and only (potentially) harm themselves, seems as ridiculous to me as making suicide illegal...which it is by the way!

By the way, if anyone likes drug-induced literature and a wild adventure, I really recommend reading Harry's book The Road To Purification: Hustlers, Hassles & Hash. It's easily one of the best books I read this year and I gave it 5 stars.

I perhaps paraphrased too much about 'zero problems' - but it's true more or less. Here's a short article on the findings of how hashish is widely different to skunk weed.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-artic...

James Morcan wrote: "Harry wrote: "Self choice should not be illegal. End of. ..."

Yeah, punishing those who only take drugs and only (potentially) harm themselves, seems as ridiculous to me as making suicide illegal...."

Thanks for the plug mate! Yeah, stoners should enjoy my book... and non-stoners too of course.

And seeing as I'm a self-confessed marijuana user, I can only tell my subjective story, which is: it's fucking great.

:)

Harry wrote: "And seeing as I'm a self-confessed marijuana user, I can only tell my subjective story, which is: it's fucking great...."

Ha ha!
Cheeky sod.

Even though the drugs are considered illegal you aren't going to get arrested for having 50gms of pot in your house, or because you are smoking a joint in an alley way in Australia. 500gms or 1kg on the other hand that is different. I can't remember how much is considered 'illegal' but law and stigma are different things. We would not have heroin injecting rooms for safe and supervised injection if there was not some leeway with the law. Stigma on the other hand, even if the law is changed, will continue to keep some people to think with a mindset that drugs and criminal go together. Also if all people who took drugs were arrested a lot of people would be arrested on admission to hospital (or they would be too afraid to say they did and suffer from withdrawl).

True, I'm aware the law is being enforced less and less. It's almost like governments are slowly moving us toward the idea that taking them without dealing is not criminal behaviour.
But what about for people who grow their own and get caught?

Kelly wrote: "Even though the drugs are considered illegal you aren't going to get arrested for having 50gms of pot in your house, or because you are smoking a joint in an alley way in Australia. 500gms or 1kg o..."

Seems like Oz is more relaxed than the U.K on that issue then.

With marijuana specifically, it does seem absurd that we lock up users and small time dealers in most countries when the Dutch have been running a workable system for years. And with Colorado, Uruguay and others following suit, it seems ridiculous that marijuana is still lumped in with the rest.

Harry wrote: "Seems like Oz is more relaxed than the U.K on that issue then...."

And I think the US is more strict also. There seem to be a lot of prisoners in the US serving time solely for possessing small quantities of various drugs.

Depends how much they are growing. 1 plant for themselves only. Nothing. And unless 'friends' dob them in no one would know. 3-5 (small time dealer) again unless someone dobbed them in not much. 10-20+ The drugs destroyed, people/person arrested, fine and up to life imprisonment. For 1kg of things like Ice, Ecstasy etc it is the same.

Kelly wrote: "Depends how much they are growing. 1 plant for themselves only. Nothing. And unless 'friends' dob them in no one would know. 3-5 (small time dealer) again unless someone dobbed them in not much. 10..."

Thanks for that info.
p.s. I hope our non-Aussie audience understands what "dobbing" means ;)

Sara wrote: "Laureen wrote: "Sara wrote: "Laureen not really, I sound like a passionate and realistic debater."

Well, Sara, if I am ridiculous, then you are an idiot. Now I can claim I am a passionate and real..."

I was merely trying to come down to your level.

James Morcan wrote: "I don't do drugs...and I have lost people to drugs...so I'm not naive to their dangers...

However what concerns me is tens of millions worldwide are being locked up for "victimless crimes" - meani..."

Yeah James, I can agree with you about harsh punishments for possessing drugs. The problem is that the pushers seem to get away with the crime of providing drugs which creates an addictive habit which can lead to crime. In MHO, I would like to see the illicit drug industry be wiped out. Shades of "Breaking Bad".

In my city, the Hospitals are over-loaded with people off their heads and violent. The Ambulance Service hates Friday & Saturday nights because of the threatening situations they have to cope with. Likewise the nursing staff. It's a real pity if your child or elderly mum breaks a leg on those nights. You could sit around for ages while staff have their hands full both with the drug affected and their victims.

P.S. I know that a response to my post will say that decriminalisation will solve that but I don't believe it will. It will just make addictive drugs more accessible and cheaper.

I still come back to the human rights issue of all the tens of millions of "victimless crimes". Users, and growers, of drugs for only personal usage are being categorized as criminals by the law even though few in society see mere drug users as criminals any more...Beyond these victimless crimes, think about the very young people who maybe "dabble" in dealing as a way to escape poverty and end up being put in with hardened and often violent criminals like rapists, thugs and even murderers who dehumanize them and often force them to become violent to survive.

This subject is also interrelated with the highly profitable and ruthless prison system which in the US and many other countries has been privatized. They make a LOT of money off drug addicts and need as many inmates as they can get.

So I just think it's an even bigger issue than what drugs do to society (which of course is a major problem as well). Also, my understanding from reading research reports about countries where most drugs have been decriminalized is that the amount of addiction is the same or even less. So drugs will not necessarily become a bigger problem if more widely available - especially as right now they are widely available (even though illegal). It seems when drugs are made legal the stigma is removed, people can talk about the dangers and addiction issues in public. A lot of heroin addicts, for example, are too ashamed to come forward in the same way that alcoholics can.

Re the black market - that is being fuelled by the illegality. Drugs are expensive because they are illegal. Legalize them and you stop the massive profits being made by the big drug cartels and the CIA (who of course are the biggest drug runners in the world and desperately want drugs to remain illegal). And of course, we can create entire new economies and tax monies and jobs for those who wish to set up companies in the new, legal drug trade...Because, after all, there will always be customers who wish to buy drugs whether they are illegal or legal.

On top of all that, I will again state I have no personal agenda here as am not remotely interested in drug usage in my life. In fact, I think when you study the brain you realize drugs are very risky behavior. Yes, some lucky users have great experiences and never report any negatives, at least no health issues they ever become aware of or directly link to drug usage. But of course many others pay for drug usage severely. The brain is kinda like a Pandora's box, you just never know what's going to happen when you alter the chemical make-up of any brain. I also think the highs people get from drugs can be gotten in many others ways including the latest brain stimulation technologies such as Lucia Light or Neurophone for example. In my opinion drugs are the outdated 20th Century equivalent of these new technologies for the mind.

So I think this subject is very complex and cannot be dealt with by kneejerk reactions or thinking traditionally. The bottom line is the War on Drugs has completely failed, and what's more a large sector of society including successful or respected or law-abiding citizens now regularly use certain drugs (e.g. weed, ecstacy) and you cannot make that big a percentage of society criminals. There's been a been a moral shift or a softening of beliefs surrounding certain drugs, especially softer drugs.

And I also agree with Harry when he said we should be able to do whatever we want with our own bodies. Seems archaic to punish people for only hurting themselves.

Times change. Many things that are legal today, were illegal yesterday and also viewed as immoral. Therefore, I think its high time the law caught up to the majority of citizens' thoughts on this subject.

The weekend is approaching, maybe we can try and then decide -:)

Nik wrote: "The weekend is approaching, maybe we can try and then decide -:)"

Okay I vote you go first: start with something soft like heroin and let me know!

It ain't about trying drugs and deciding whether they should be legalized or not. Plenty of leading politicians and thinkers who state they have no interest in drugs and have never tried them nor ever will, have also weighed up all the pros and cons for society and believe they should be legalized.