Reading the Detectives discussion

Died in the Wool (1944) is our first book in our Ngaio Marsh Challenge Part 2. It is our first challenge book for 2019 and the thirteenth title in the Roderick Alleyn series.

Ngaio Marsh returns to her New Zealand roots to transplant the classic country house murder mystery to an upland sheep station on South Island – and produces one of her most exotic and intriguing novels.

One summer evening in 1942 Flossie Rubrick, MP, one of the most formidable women in New Zealand, goes to her husband’s wool shed to rehearse a patriotic speech – and disappears.

Three weeks later she turns up at an auction – packed inside one of her own bales of wool and very, very dead…

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

This is one of my favourite Marsh novels. It doesn't have the theatre background that so many of her crime novels have, but it's one of the few set in New Zealand, and the love for her own country really shines through in the evocative descriptions of the countryside right at the start of the book.

A lot of readers find this one overly talky and I can see why, but it's one of the reasons I like it. You get a real sense of the characters - and the victim - through their talk, and the chilly winter ambience is very well conveyed. Having re-read the book several times, I'm now never surprised by the murderer, but it's one of the few by Marsh where it's actually one of the main characters. You also get the impression of the importance of the work that Fabian and Douglas are doing, and it makes solving the murder more important because it also means unmasking the enemy agent.

I really like the character of Cliff, and his musical talent, and the details of how he and Flossie fell out and why. Needless to say, I agree completely with his view of the patronage. I also really like the spotlight we get at the end on Arthur Rubrick, and his fine qualities (and his assessment of his wife's good judgment). I think Marsh also really succeeds in showing us the personality of the victim filtered through the other characters - which is not usual for her books: normally the crime occurs late in the novel when we've had a chance to get to know the victim well through direct observation.

Re-reading for the challenge, I also noticed how poor Terence is practically sexually harassed by Douglas, yet all those descriptions of his hand on her knee and so on aren't actually commented on by any of the other characters except as a kind of joke on Fabian's part. I'd be pointedly moving my seat or taking his hand away if I were her!

I thought one of the problems with this, was that the crime happened so long before and was, really, just a side issue to Alleyn, who was really investigating the espionage story - although he seemed more interested in the murder!

As sometimes happens in GA books, it drifted into endless interviews, with events from all the various characters point of view. Despite almost everyone disliking the victim, Alleyn seemed able to see through this and see her worth. Too much was made of the portrait of her, which reminded me of Tey and the Richard III book, where, apparently, you can see someone's true self through a picture of them (obviously, novelists are not historians, but portraits fall victim to bias, as much as other sources - nobody paints a portrait that a client pays for and makes them look bad). Overall, not one of my favourites.

I don't think the last two books have been up to the standard of those preceding them. This was another set in New Zealand, but we didn't even get much of the surrounding area apart from the fact that the setting was pretty remote. Alleyn was again under the guise of someone looking for spies as opposed to a detective, although his purpose throughout the book was to find a murderer as much as someone passing information to the enemy. This first half of the book was telling us what a family thought of the murder victim, which seemed quite repetitive , the second half had what little action there was.

I did find the interviews a bit drawn-out and overly talky, but I do agree with Emma that this means we get a strong idea of the characters in this one.

Totally agree that Cliff is a good character, and the details of his falling out with Flossie are very interesting - and I also liked Arthur.

On Terence (why the confusing man's name?) and Douglas, I was barking up the wrong tree and assumed they were in a relationship after all the details of him putting his arms around her etc - as they weren't, I again have to agree with you, Emma, that he is pretty much harassing her!

Right from the beginning I thought it was obvious that Flossie was a very pushy person, by the way she pushed herself in to the auction. This very much confirmed to me that she would be the victim. Arthur was very embarrassed by her, so I was thinking from the start that he had finally had enough.
The drawn out talking about her seemed to me to keep repeating themselves by numbering her faults, with Ursula defending her, and even though we knew one of them at least was lying, to me they just kept repeating themselves.
I thought Cliff was being rather silly over the whole thing, and just wanted him to grow up. Also I thought Terri, was the only one being honest by saying that she was paid to be there and Flossie's personality had nothing to do with her.
I even at one time wondered if Markins was what he claimed to be. So I did think the plot was good but just too drawn out, and wondered if Marsh had page numbers on her mind.

It was odd that Arthur was dead, by the time Alleyn arrived. It would have been interesting to have had his point of view about events.

Emma wrote: "This is one of my favourite Marsh novels. It doesn't have the theatre background that so many of her crime novels have, but it's one of the few set in New Zealand, and the love for her own country ..."

Especially since Terence is an employee, so typical of the time but even creepier- she pretty much has to put up with it! And since she was secretly in love with her boss’s husband, she may have felt it gave her cover to be seen as being pursued by Douglas, but the poor man is dead now and she still has to put up with Mr. Grabby Hands...

Susan wrote: "It was odd that Arthur was dead, by the time Alleyn arrived. It would have been interesting to have had his point of view about events."

Absolutely- and see the resolution of his feelings for Terence!

Susan wrote: "I thought one of the problems with this, was that the crime happened so long before and was, really, just a side issue to Alleyn, who was really investigating the espionage story - although he seem..."

I agree, the endless interviews got old, but did give me a real flavor for the victim. I very much enjoyed the descriptions of the scenery, and Googled South Island sheep station to fill out my imagination!

Overall, I liked it but did increase the speed on the audiobook to get through the “talkier” bits - I enjoyed the camaraderie between Alleyn and Markins - understated, but fun! I kind of saw the end coming, but it was satisfying (who doesn’t want to see the Nazi get it in the end?)

One of the last Marsh mysteries I read was Daughter of Time, so that’s very interesting, the connection with the portraits; overall, I enjoyed it but want to fill in the blanks by reading more of the earlier books, set back n England.

Good idea Susan, I will google South Island sheep station too!

Daughter of Time is by Josephine Tey, but yes, there is a similarity with the thoughts about the portraits here.

There are some incredible pics, really gave me a feel for the sheer majesty of the landscape- I’ve never been to New Zealand, but I’ve seen it on TV and in films and can see why it’s such a popular tourist destination ( I just hope they don’t ruin it!)

Oh, I’m sorry - mixing up my author’s and detectives, I think I read them to close together! Alleyn/Alan had me mixing them up in my mind - I wish one of them was Nigel or William or something...

I just realized a similar plot twist between this book and the first Alleyn mystery, A Man Lay Dead (I’m trying to catch up with the group and just read that one before Christmas).

Possible spoiler below if you’ve not read A Man Lay Dead.

(view spoiler)[Anyway - in both books, sound is used at a crucial point in the murder to throw off the perceived movements of characters. In Man Lay Dead, the killer chattered to another character endlessly to make it seem they hadn’t left the room; here, Cliff pretended to play a complicated piano piece, but it was a radio broadcast- (hide spoiler)] very cleverly used in both cases!

Susan, if possible could you edit your last post and put a note in the first paragraph about it having a possible spoiler for A Man Lay Dead? No major problem, but just to be on the safe side for anyone who hasn't read it yet. Thank you. :)

Sorry, I’ll fix it!

Thanks, Susan!

Sure - I’m sorry, it just came to me in a lightbulb moment and I blabbed!

Did anyone else find Terri a sad figure? Being the only one “employed”, having been in love with her boss’ husband, both of them dying, and she can’t get away (I assume travel would’ve been somewhat proscribed by the war). And I got the impression she didn’t really have anywhere to go, and stuck in such an isolated but beautiful place, not really among friends.

Susan in NC wrote: "Did anyone else find Terri a sad figure? Being the only one “employed”, having been in love with her boss’ husband, both of them dying, and she can’t get away (I assume travel would’ve been somewha..."

I agree, I did think that she seemed to be the one that lost the most from the whole situation, through no fault of her own

Yes, I felt sorry for both her and the late Arthur.

Susan in NC wrote: "Sure - I’m sorry, it just came to me in a lightbulb moment and I blabbed!"

No worries! An interesting point. :)

Susan in NC wrote: "Did anyone else find Terri a sad figure? Being the only one “employed”, having been in love with her boss’ husband, both of them dying, and she can’t get away (I assume travel would’ve been somewha..."

I agree completely. And Arthur seemed to be a fine man and I wish he could have had a bit more happiness.

Terri was something of a sad figure, I agree, and I wondered why she had stayed on. Especially when it became clear she was in love with a man who was no longer around. Do you think it would have been so hard to travel? Presumably, she could, at least, have found work in a nearby town - war work, perhaps?

Susan wrote: "Terri was something of a sad figure, I agree, and I wondered why she had stayed on. Especially when it became clear she was in love with a man who was no longer around. Do you think it would have b..."

I know very little about NZ, except it’s beautiful! I got the impression they were pretty isolated. I was imagining if the man I loved died, I’d want to get clean away, but I didn’t know if civilians could move about freely then, I know even before Pearl Harbor, German U-boats patrolled the Atlantic. Also, would she have the money to get to England, and if so, anyone to go to? I got the impression she was quite alone in the world.

Susan in NC wrote: "Susan wrote: "Terri was something of a sad figure, I agree, and I wondered why she had stayed on. Especially when it became clear she was in love with a man who was no longer around. Do you think i..."

You are right Susan. If you were on a high country sheep station even in pre-war days, you were several hours away from the 'nearby town', and then access was across at least one large river, many small streams, over hills, and all in a horse drawn cart or at best a small truck. Of course, the ability to move off the station was also very dependent on the season. In winter you were unlikely to be going anywhere for months because of the snow; in autumn and often in spring, the rivers were in flood, so again, travel at whim was not a consideration.
During the war, from quite early on, there was petrol rationing, so even that truck wouldn't be used for trips to 'town', but reserved for farm work.

This might help to put the war years in NZ in perspective and give an idea of what life was like for Ngaio Marsh, remembering she was in the more "well to do" category of citizens.

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/second-...

I know from what my Mum used to talk about this is just how it was. If it hadn't been for the electric trams, she would have had a walk of 1 hour 30 minutes (each way) to where she'd been manpowered into the munitions factory to work. The munitions factory had been an electric oven manufacturer, so there were now no ovens being manufactured. My grandmother walked everywhere as she couldn't afford the tram fares to do the shopping etc. Like others, new shoes for her were a luxury as grandad had to have sturdy shoes for his work, so when her shoes wore out they were repaired with whatever the shoe repairman could source at the time. I saw her last pair of 'war shoes' that had wooden soles and a cube of wood for the heels. Fascinated me as a child, but don't think I'd have liked to have to wear them - no flexibilty!

Lesley wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Susan wrote: "Terri was something of a sad figure, I agree, and I wondered why she had stayed on. Especially when it became clear she was in love with a man who was no longer ar..."

Thank you - I’d forgotten about petrol rationing, too, should’ve remembered from all of my Angela Thirkell “Barsetshire in wartime” reading!

Lesley wrote: "This might help to put the war years in NZ in perspective and give an idea of what life was like for Ngaio Marsh, remembering she was in the more "well to do" category of citizens.

https://nzhisto..."

Wow! I think life was pretty easy for us in the U.S. - there was rationing and Victory Gardens and such, but not so severe!

Lesley, thanks for sharing that article, I just read Doris Kearns Goodwin’s before Christmas, and Guns of August in the fall. I love well-written history, and am trying to fill in gaps in my knowledge - especially about the world wars.

Thank you Lesley, very interesting to learn about wartime in New Zealand and the food rationing, as well as the severe petrol rationing, which I see went on until 1950 - must have been very difficult for people living in remote rural areas like the settings of Marsh's mysteries.

Thanks Lesley I will check out your link.

For me, this one didn't feel particularly Kiwi until the last third. Merrywether carefully rationing his words was a very recognisable NZ character & Florence really came to life for me. Too many of the characters were British or had lived in Britain for a considerable period of time.

There was also a lack of suspects, given that it would have taken considerable strength to pack poor Flossie into the wool bale. So I fixed on Douglas as a suspect early on - especially given the none too subtle references to Heidelberg.

I stumbled across this: https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/ngai...

In case anyone might be interested in seeing it....

I had no idea that there had been Alleyn episodes beyond those with Patrick Malahide.

Thanks Bev, have you watched this NZ version with George Baker as Alleyn?

I've watched it in the last few days and posted about it a bit in the non-spoiler thread - I thought it was pretty true to the book and enjoyed it. Quite similar in feel to a series like the older Wimsey mysteries with Ian Carmichael.

The picture quality wasn't all that good for me via this site, but I'm very grateful that they put it up. I do wish the other episodes were available to watch too!

Judy wrote: "Thanks Bev, have you watched this NZ version with George Baker as Alleyn?

I've watched it in the last few days and posted about it a bit in the non-spoiler thread - I thought it was pretty true t..."

Yes, I watched it last night after I posted the link. I thought it quite good for the most part. Though it seemed to me that the woman who played Ursula made the character almost cartoonishly dim-witted. I read Ursula as overly loyal to her guardian (and not willing or able to see Florence's faults) but I didn't think she was so unintelligent. The young man who played Cliff was excellent.

Bev wrote: "I stumbled across this: https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/ngai...

In case anyone might be interested in seeing it....

I had no idea that there had been Alleyn epi..."
Interesting - I remember seeing Malahide in several Alleyn mysteries on American public TV back in the 1990s, I think...

Susan in NC wrote: "Bev wrote: "I stumbled across this: https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/ngai...

In case anyone might be interested in seeing it....

I had no idea that there had bee..."

Yes, Susan. PBS showed in US but I thought it was more in the 1980s. Evidently UK didn't purchase these four episodes made but produced their own Alleyn series in the 1990s.

I agree the young man playing Cliff was excellent, Bev - I quite liked the actress playing Ursula, but agree she was portrayed as none too bright!

It's frustrating that there seems to be no way of seeing the other three episodes - they would make a nice DVD box set, or an addition to a streaming service.

I quite like this one, some quite interesting characters,especially the murdered woman, though I found the murderer a bit obvious.

Yes, this is one where I think we could have done with one or two more suspects really!

I was getting a bit tired of Marsh but I enjoyed this one. I found the sheep station setting really interesting, and the plot was a lot stronger than some previous ones. I could actually believe how the espionage and murder played out.

I agree about the talking at the beginning, it was a bit slow, but it didn't spoil my enjoyment.

Louise wrote: "I quite like this one, some quite interesting characters,especially the murdered woman, though I found the murderer a bit obvious."

I didn't get the murderer this time, I thought it was Arthur :(

Lesley wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Bev wrote: "I stumbled across this: https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/ngai...

In case anyone might be interested in seeing it....

I had no ide..."

Thanks, Lesley- I couldn’t remember when I saw it on PBS Mystery, but four episodes sounds right! And I remember it was Malahide in the lead, I thought it was a BBC production, but I’m not sure.

After the 4 NZ episodes with George Baker, there were 9 episodes of the BBC series in the 90s with Malahide (well, 8 with Malahide and Simon Williams in the pilot.) A shame they didn't do more.

Did Lesley, Carol or any other NZ members see the other episodes of the NZ series back when it was originally shown or repeated later?

I definitely saw the series. I remember getting all the evening chores done so I could sit down and watch each episode. Everyone was waiting for more to be made given the number of books she'd written, but there were no further episodes.

I too wish they'd put the series on DVD. In the '70s NZ On Screen were making many TV series, and most of them have been put on DVD. Because of that, and because they never made any further episodes, whether there's some sort of contract/agreement that stops that happening. It could be something like that, because instead of NZ On Screen continuing with the series, the BBC did, but I don't think they ever made these four titles - correct me if I'm wrong. NZ On Screen (later NZ On Air) was government funded, so maybe the funds were not there. Who knows, but it was disappointing, and still is in not being able to see all four episodes.

I don't recall the series was ever repeated either, so that is also a puzzle since most everything was repeated back in those days.

Lesley wrote: "It could be something like that, because instead of NZ On Screen continuing with the series, the BBC did, but I don't think they ever made these four titles - correct me if I'm wrong ..."

You're right, Lesley - I've just had a look at the episode lists and the BBC series didn't include any of these four titles. (I thought they might have both done Final Curtain, but in fact that was in the BBC series and the NZ one had an episode adapted from a different book with a similar title, Opening Night.)

Glad to hear you saw them all at the time, anyway - what a shame they were never repeated or issued on DVD.

This was my first Ngaio Marsh mystery and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved the authentic flavor of the characters described and I didn’t mind all the talking as my favorite mysteries are ones where understanding the ‘psychology’ of the characters is important to solve the murder. I guessed the solution right from the beginning, probably by chance and picked up on all of the relevant clues, but three quarters through the read I was so distracted by all of the red herrings put out about Terri and Mr Rubrick and I became convinced that she was the spy and I was wrong about Douglas, and that Arthur had killed his wife to protect the spy he had fallen in love with and the final murderer was Terence. So Ngaio Marsh properly fooled me in the end, very cleverly.
I really enjoyed the beautiful descriptions of the high country of South Island NZ and the sheep shearing and muster which brought back vivid memories from my childhood that I had almost forgotten. I’m looking forward to discovering more about this author. The little I have read reminded me in some ways of her character Terrence Lynne. Aloof, highly intelligent, capable of great warmth and loyalty, but not fond of enacting the feminine wiles portrayed by the other female character Ursula or of the dominance of the victim. Do you think the character Terrence Lynne might have been a nod to her own personality and character?

Jemima wrote: "This was my first Ngaio Marsh mystery and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved the authentic flavor of the characters described and I didn’t mind all the talking as my favorite mysteries are ones where..."

Oh, interesting thought - I always feel for authors when critics later analyze their work and say this character or that character was clearly meant to be the author, or they were clearly in love with that character (I’ve read that about Sayers and Lord Peter). I don’t know why, but I think that would be mortifying to put this work out there for the world and have it cut apart, looking for your deepest feelings and desires...but I guess all creative artists and their work risk that to put out the product of their creativity.

Judy wrote: "After the 4 NZ episodes with George Baker, there were 9 episodes of the BBC series in the 90s with Malahide (well, 8 with Malahide and Simon Williams in the pilot.) A shame they didn't do more.

Did..."

You would think I would have seen it, but I have no recollection of it at all. If we don't get an Airbnb guest for the next couple of nights, I'm going to try to watch online.

Ilona Rodgers in her later years was a favourite NZ actress of mine.

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Judy wrote: "After the 4 NZ episodes with George Baker, there were 9 episodes of the BBC series in the 90s with Malahide (well, 8 with Malahide and Simon Williams in the pilot.) A shame they didn't..."

As a series it would have run one episode a week, so only over a month then all gone, never to be repeated. Shame really, and given the re-runs of other series made around that time by South Pacific Pictures, (The Governor, Greenstone for example), and many of them put on DVD. Makes you think there must have been some restriction or similar put on it.
Ilona is just lovely in this episode, and you can see why she became such a successful and appealing actress. :)

Lesley wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Judy wrote: "After the 4 NZ episodes with George Baker, there were 9 episodes of the BBC series in the 90s with Malahide (well, 8 with Malahide and Simon Williams in ..."

*NZ aside* I loved her in Gloss!