The Old Curiosity Club discussion
The Old Curiosity Shop
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TOCS: Chapters 1 - 5
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Mod
I am going through it with this Quilp character, not wanting to judge him so quickly based on his image and brief glimpse of behaviors. But who am I kidding after reading Chapter 4...w..."
Hi Ami
You ask very good questions. Candidly, I do not have an answer for your question about the phrase “it was a happy release.”
Now, as for what the possible attraction could be between Quilp and his wife. She is described as being reasonably attractive, but what could have attracted her to Quilp? Many marriages bring bizarre pairings. Since this is a 19C novel perhaps we should consider thinking in that mindset. Was she allowed a free choice to marry whomever she pleased, or was there some financial arrangement between her parents and Quilp. A similar event almost occurred in NN between Madeline Bray and Arthur Gride.
Could it be that Quilp was, once upon a time, a man with a better or more sympathetic character. This, candidly, I doubt. Dare we consider the possibility that Miss Jiniwin simply made a horrible mistake. Some answers may be revealed later in the novel.
Mod
Yes Tristram, you're right somehow, it is Master Humphrey.
Master Humphrey's Clock..."
That is a good point, Julie! It would explain the childlike and excessively naive behaviour of Little Nell‘s in the first chapter, which would not be compatible with a 14-year old girl‘s. Apart from that, Dickens‘s by and by changing his mind about his protagonist‘s age, and implicitly correcting it, would not be the only example of strange changes occurring in the novel.
Mary Lou wrote: "Ami wrote: He clearly has assets, but it's obvious the business is not thriving. I don't think he's as liquid as Fred thinks him to be...."Re: Grandfather's finances, I agree with Ami that his as..."
After reading these Quilp chapters, Mary Lou, I’m beginning to think Fred may be aware of Grand Trent’s other business... the one he conducts with Quilp. I figure, since both Fred and Quilp run in the circles of London’s underbelly, Fred may have either seen or heard about these dealings regarding his grandfather. There’s more to Quilp’s business than what is described, some being a front, like the counting house (I loved how he slept there. LoL!), or the import/export business (sounds more like piracy ;p). Maybe, the curiosity shop is a false facade as well?
Chapter 5I hadn’t read about the boy with amphibious qualities when the comment was posted about him and was excited to encounter him in for when I did progress to that point in my reading. Once I met, however, I will admit I was underwhelmed by him. Maybe, I hyped him up too much in my mind, I don’t know? I believe, his description, the forced walking on his hands by Quilp alongside some of the other fantastical elements in these first five chapters is beginning to sound too over-the-top, for me... for Dickens? I was originally worried about spoilers in my intro to “TOCS,”so I didn’t read it. I feel the need for some backstory at this point. I want to know why the inconsistencies in details yet to come and Dickens’s writing process, as a few of you have already kindly gleaned upon some of these aspects. Spoilers be damned, here I come. LoL.
Mod
How come you all feel so distrustful of a hard-working businessman like Daniel Quilp? Piracy, and even the murder of his prospective father-in-law, or the precipitation of his demise? Has this poor man done anything to arouse your suspicions?
Quite honestly, I just thought that when he was talking about the "happy release" of Mr. Jiniwin that he was trying - very successfully - to be impertinent towards his mother-in-law, insinuating that death was a happy release to Mr. Jiniwin from the presence of his wife. Similarly, the question whether the poor man had had to suffer long was read by me in that light.
It's a bit like an obituary notice I was saw which said that after many years of hard and relentless, yet patient suffering Mr. Müller was finally released. And then, in the next sentence it went on to state that the funeral of his wife was to take place next Thursday etc. etc. Of course, it was not a real obituary notice ;-)
Mod
I hadn’t read about the boy with amphibious qualities when the comment was posted about him and was excited to encounter him in for when I did progress to that point in my reading. Once I..."
Ami
I really enjoyed your comment that there are elements in the first five chapters that might be too over-the-top even for Dickens. Yes, Dickens does take full flight in sections of TOCS. At times, buckling up one’s reading seatbelt is a good idea.
Mod
Ah! That makes sense. :-))
Mod
I also wondered how Quilp could stay up all night, smoking, just to get one over on his wife. But since there are people who would cut their noses to spite their faces, I'd willingly believe this episode.
Peter wrote: "Ami wrote: "Chapters 3-4I am going through it with this Quilp character, not wanting to judge him so quickly based on his image and brief glimpse of behaviors. But who am I kidding after reading C..."
Most definitely the latter, Peter... the marriage involving a financial transaction. It seems to fit in Quilp’s wheelhouse.
Thank you for shedding light on Quilp, that perhaps, he wasn’t always who I read him to be. It’s not difficult at all to see him other than reprehensible at one time in his life because we’re not born mean and hateful, we are taught and treated to be in certain homes and environments. Keeping in mind the treatment of children in the 19th century and Quilp’s own set backs, I don’t doubt Quilp being mistreated and abused at the hands of many. For Quilp to have turned out as he has, it’s not completely far fetched to realize he was never shown compassion... and if he was, it obviously wasn’t long lasting.
Tristram wrote: "Dear friends,How come you all feel so distrustful of a hard-working businessman like Daniel Quilp? Piracy, and even the murder of his prospective father-in-law, or the precipitation of his demise..."
Ahhh. Yes, I see this! He’s calculating beyond measure, she’s perceived as set in her ways and dominant. For her to acquiesce to him the way she does seems out of character. Alleged murder aside, those two have something between them...a debt of sorts, maybe?
Tristram wrote: "What was too much in the way of grotesqueness for me - even considering Dickens's standards - was that strange meal of Quilp's. Nobody would chew tobacco and cresses at the same time, drink boiling..."From what I’ve read about Quilp thus far, I found this scene to be the most believable in all the grotesqueries attributing to his character. Since the beginning, Dickens has given Quilp the characteristics of being anything but human. In this particular scene, Tristram, it’s that very idea of “cutting of one’s nose to spite their face” that gives me the notion there’s “somebody” in there... that he is human. Okay, sub-human. :P
Why did Quilp have the boy stand on his head? I never got that.I would not consider Dickens a fantasy writer, but his characters are sometimes fantastical and he (and James) did have this thing about ghosts.
I thought this suggestion, made in another group, was interesting and wanted to share it: Dickens gave all his characters some interesting physical or behavioral attribute because his novels were serialized, sometimes for more than a year. Characters would come and go over that time, and the memorable attribute (and name) made it easier for the reader to remember who and what. A kind of memory trigger.
Anyone else hear this before?
Tristram wrote: "I still remember Aunty Wainwright..."She had an Old Curiosity Shop, too!
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "... the male bird that locks its mate in the nest is the hornbill, and not the bower bird. Still, I saw similarities between the bower bird rituals and the Quilp's, ..."This is really interesting! And assuming we've been fairly accurate in our connections, both here and when we've talked about character names in other novels, it's amazing to me not only what broad knowledge Dickens had, but that he was savvy enough to put all that esoteric information to use when creating his characters.
Kim wrote: "Did you see that! There is something Tristram likes abo..."My gosh... you can almost see the tears getting ready to spill out!
Ami wrote: " how does Mrs. Quilp end up with somebody like Mr. Quilp considering who Mrs. Jiniwin is... arent they the most odd pairing...how could she have allowed this marriage?..."Excellent question, Ami. Did her father use her to pay off some debts to Quilp? Sounds awful, but we've seen such things before, haven't we? I can only think that money must have been the root of it, in some way or another.
Mary Lou wrote: "it's amazing to me not only what broad knowledge Dickens had, but that he was savvy enough to put all that esoteric information to use when creating his characters."Yup.
Mod
I would not consider Dickens a fantasy writer, but his characters are sometimes fantastical and he (and James) did have this thing a..."
Hi Xan
Yes. It makes sense to me. I would add that often a character’s speech pattern, dialect, or “catch” phrase such as ”Barkis is willin” would help place them in the reader’s mind as well.
Your observation of how the novels were originally published as serial parts over a number of weeks or months is an important one for readers in the 21C to remember.
Mod
The most interesting question, already mentioned here by one of the Club Members, is still open: How could a young and beautiful woman like Mrs. Quilp ever get married to a man like Quilp? Could he have ever made himself so charming that he pulled the wool over the eyes of his future bride and her parents? I really doubt that anybody would be taken in by Quilp for more than half an hour since he is too much of a lover of the grotesque to make himself look agreeable and bear it for long. - The only other answer must be that there is a dark secret of some sort.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Why did Quilp have the boy stand on his head? I never got that.I would not consider Dickens a fantasy writer, but his characters are sometimes fantastical and he (and James) did have this thing a..."
I'll admit, Dickens's world is nuanced with over-the-top characters and his settings tend to be a character of their own; but, does anybody else find an imbalance between the gravity of the characters versus the gravity of the setting in "TOCS?"
It's understandable giving some of these characters memorable attributes to maintain the readers interest because they are memorable, aren't they? The question is, are they too memorable...if that's even a qualm? I'm not sure he had to be so far-fetched about it, although it's quite telling of Dickens to be open to pursuing another technique in character portrayals.
What turned me off after reading about amphibian boy is I started to run through all of the other characters in my mind: Kit's clown-like countenance and behaviors, Quilp's comparison to both a dwarf and goblin, and the oddities of the narrator, Grandfather, Nell, Fred, Swiveller, etc...I wondered if Dickens wouldn't have done the reader a solid by setting the story in a carnival freak show, instead of a dark and grim London (which seems to have faded away when any one of these characters is in the picture.).
The novel, in general reads differently compared to some of the other ones we've read together...i feel as if I'm spectating, moving from place to place, watching from behind a glass barrier. Normally in Dickens I find that I'm enmeshed and more a part of the story, the fourth wall non-existent.
Hopefully it ends with the inclusion of the amphibian boy, but if not; somebody please DM me to let me know there's not a Bearded Lady, or some other bizarre character on the horizon. LOL! I jest, of course. It is Dickens, it's a discussion with all of you, it's all enjoyable...even when discussing the oddities in the novel.
Mod
She had an Old Curiosity Shop, too!"
Which somehow you couldn't leave without buying something. So she had no need to gamble.
Mary Lou wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "... the male bird that locks its mate in the nest is the hornbill, and not the bower bird. Still, I saw similarities between the bower bird rituals and the Quilp's, ..."..."
I felt the same way...it may be an outlier as a novel in comparison to the rest of his canon, but it's quite telling of the man himself (in the best way possible), his savvy.
Did her father use her to pay off some debts to Quilp?
I didn't even think this as an option, but why not? yes, absolutely.
Mod
I think he does not want the boy to stand on his head, maybe because in that position the boy can hardly do his work, but the boy does it out of spite or exuberance.
As to Dickens's giving most of his characters a characteristic language or behaviour feature to make his readers able to recognize and remember them, yes - I knew that but although it often works remarkably well, it was sometimes a bit too obvious. Remember Mr. Carker and his teeth? Those references got annoying after a while. Dickens also did this when it was not necessary with a view to enabling readers to remember his characters: Just remember the short story "Hunted Down" we once read; there was this villain character whose parting was constantly compared to the garden path he led people up. It struck me as too repetitive at the time.
I remember that Tolstoy did the same thing in "War and Peace", at least with some characters. There was Prince Andrei's wife Lisa, whose beauty was enhanced or blemished (I can't remember which) by her upper lip. I read that book more than thirty years ago but still recall that upper lip. It works!
Tristram wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Why did Quilp have the boy stand on his head? I never got that."I think he does not want the boy to stand on his head, maybe because in that position the boy can hardly ..."
I think he does not want the boy to stand on his head, maybe because in that position the boy can hardly do his work, but the boy does it out of spite or exuberance.
Birds of a feather...
These two appear to understand one another, dare I say, maybe even show affection for each other? I hope whatever it is, that this boy doesn't turn out like Quilp.
Tristram wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Why did Quilp have the boy stand on his head? I never got that."I think he does not want the boy to stand on his head, maybe because in that position the boy can hardly ..."
There's a Neil Gaiman YA novel, The Graveyard Book--it's lovely, a ghost story version of Kipling's Jungle Book--where he has a whole set of characters all named Jack, and I took a close look at it once to try to figure out how he made this at all coherent, and he does exactly what Xan is mentioning: gives each a distinctive feature that's repeated over and over, sometimes on the same page.
So I think what Xan and Tristram are pointing to works not only if you have a serial where memory is strained over time, but in any situation where the reader is liable to be confused, and now I want to go look for it all over my reading.
It also strikes me as a good advertising-soundbite kind of thing that can travel well. I expect these distinctive character traits are one of the reasons Dickens novels have adapted so well to different media: the character traits keep the overall picture consistent.
But I'm with Ami in feeling the eccentricities are too concentrated in TOCS so far. I need a couple of characters to provide me a mental resting place.
Tristram wrote: "As to Dickens's giving most of his characters a characteristic language or behaviour feature to make his readers able to recognize and remember them, yes - I knew that but although it often works remarkably well, it was sometimes a bit too obvious."Yes, but I never thought of the serialization as the source. I just thought it was how he gave each character an identity.
"My dear." Arghhhhh!!
Yes, Lisa's upper lip. I was sorry to see Lisa leave so early in the novel. I kind of liked her.
Mod
I would not consider Dickens a fantasy writer, but his characters are sometimes fantastical and he (and Ja..."
Hello Ami
Oddities abound in the novel. That’s for sure! For me the novel at times reads like a fairy tale on steroids. If we encountered grit in the workhouse of OT and grim with Dotheboy’s Hall in NN, we are now entering the grotesque in TOCS.
I am enjoying the freakishness of the novel. Dickens is seldom boring.
Mod
So did I, Xan. And I also liked Prince Andrei a lot, whereas I somewhat despised that whimpey Pierre. Andrei should have ended up with Natasha, if you ask me. But that would go into another thread, I‘d say ;-)
Mod
Well, Julie, you‘ll be in for a very special treat with TOCS then. Let me put it like this: If you find any normal character in the next few weeks, please tell me ;-)
Mod
That reminds me of the weather a few days back. You would have liked it ;-)
Mod
Cover Illustration by Howard Chandler Christy
Mod
Cover Illustration by Howard Chandler Christy"
Kim
What a tough question. The young woman looks too old to be Nell, too attractive to be the maid of all work of the Brasses and too fashionable to be Sally Brass.
By the skin tones alone could she be a wax figure from Mrs Jarley’s collection? But then again I get all the feeling that most of her figures were less than well created.
Let’s say she is an artist’s creative vision of a character who does not exist ... :-)
Mod
As far as we have read the novel, the young lady does not seem to match any of the characters we have come across so far (as is shown in Peter‘s post), and as far as I can remember from my earlier readings of TOCS, there won‘t be any character matching the young lady in the picture. That‘s why I would suggest it might be the unnamed lady in the carriage who took pity on Little Nell? Just an idea.
Kim wrote: "Who is this? Cover Illustration by Howard Chandler Christy"It would almost have to be Nell, wouldn't it? But it's certainly not. I'd guess Sophie, but I don't think she's an important enough character to warrant being the cover art.
I'm a bit surprised that this comparison hasn't already been made (at least directly), but Nell and Quilp reminded me of Little Red Riding Hoo..."
I'm a bit surprised that this comparison hasn't already been made (at least directly), but Nell and Quilp reminded me of Little Red Riding Hood and the big, bad wolf.
This is a great comparison! Somebody mentioned Harry Potter earlier, so I've been picturing Quilp as one of those Gringott's bankers this whole time. LOL! I'm curious too if the story will follow in the vein of Red Riding Hood, but with a spin?
She loves and trusts her grandfather, so I want to trust him, too.
I did too, but then I had to remind myself she's still only a child...she doesn't know any better. It was Quilp, in Chapter 4, that I realized my initial feelings regarding Grand Trent and Quilp were not wrong...or were they? LOL! I love it and hate it that Dickens is able to play with my mind! :P I don't think we're wrong, Mary Lou.
The scene in Chapter 4 with the ladies at tea reminds me of the women
To what socio-economic level do these women belong? They're clearly not in the upper echelon, but they aren't on the streets either...would they be considered middle-class, or lower middle class, keeping in mind they do live across the river?
Thank you for your list of names, both you and Alissa. Very helpful!