Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion
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FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS
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Another false flag with Iran?

Ouch! Quite a harsh language there.

That's one way to describe the 30 Years War . . . .
Ricky, I am not sure your man Ghandi was b..."
Gandhi is not my man, unless you mean him being Indian, in that case yes.
And I am aware of all those things about Gandhi and a lot more. And, like I said in my response to P.K., my example of him is in context of British Colonialism. There is a lot of problematic things about Gandhi's stances, his racism and casteism are two such examples but also there is also a lot of beauty and goodness to find in his work.

Revolutionary is a neutral term. It isn't by definition a term of endearment. Revolutionaries can be horrible people too. Calling him a revolutionary is not an endorsement of his views.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Both Bhagat Singh and Winston Churchill fit this description.

You mean permissible as in socially acceptable? Yes. I mean many educated people act like oh casteism is so bad yet they wouldn't give time of the day to someone of the lower caste. Think of armchair middle class westerners who do a lot of 'worldly talks' as long as they don't have to confront their own hypocrisy.

Here's an article written by an Indian author that I read only last night:
India’s Caste System
By Archana Chaudhary
https://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/i...
For generations of Indians, the ancient code of social stratification known as the caste system has defined how people earn a living and whom they marry. Despite reform efforts, deep-rooted prejudices and entitlement hold firm among higher castes, while those on the lowest rungs still face marginalization, discrimination and violence. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has a strategy that purports to look beyond caste and focus on improving the lot of all Indians. His approach has won overwhelming backing from voters, but critics say it risks exacerbating the plight of the most disadvantaged.

Will India's caste system ever end? https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I too feed and observe birds, Ricky, infact I think we have revived the sparrow population of the UK in our own garden, and I admire their beauty and evolutionary dexterity very much but I can also report that, even the smallest of them, can be very vicious, territorial or just because they don't like each other. They kill their own just the same that we do. I think you might be seeing life through rose-tinted ( or Buddhist) glasses. Whovever, whatever created life didn't design it to do anything other than to survive and procreate, we make anything else, like writing here, to fill the spaces in between.

No, no. I am very aware about the world's hunger and capacity for violence. If you have tracked my posts in this thread, you must know that I wrote "Violence comes naturally to humans".
Birds are migratory as are human beings. We have always been moving about, shifting around throughout history. We have always intermingled, our DNA is a proof of that and this is why isolationist view of culture looks silly to me.
I also think it is wrong to compare man-made constructs of "nation states" with the territorial mores of animals. We can be both migratory and territorial. We all want our space in the world, after all. Being territorial doesn't in itself lend reason to the concept of nation states. And no animal kingdom doesn't have a relatable concept of nation states. It is just not comparable. A nation state view of animal kingdom would be, that a bear in Yellowstone national park cannot belong to Glacier National Park or a Goldfinch in Peak District, UK should be restricted to the borders of Peak district only.
The only way personal territories of birds, or big cats or any other specie is similar to us, is that let's say someone decides to take over your house and garden. (Hopefully not) :)
The presence of a rich gypsy/Romani/ Traveller legacy and culture is a beautiful antithesis to the notion that human beings are bound by nature to live within geographical and culturally isolated boundaries.
You said "whovever, whatever created life didn't design it to do anything other than to survive and procreate". That's debatable. I am not sure we have a definite answer to who the creator is, what's the purpose of the our creator and is there any meaning to our creation. Richard Dawkins wrote that only the lucky ones die because only those who are lucky enough to be born, lucky enough to live, gets to die which of course is a very optimistic view of death.
This all goes back to the previous post about optimism and pessimism. And the truth for me is that there is more beauty, more vitality, more resilience and compassion, to be had in life with a spirit of optimism. This doesn't mean I am always optimistic but it is certainly more valuable to me. But of course, these are personal views on life and on such matters, we all differ and there are no right answers to be had and thus no wrong answer to give.

Hundreds Of People Suffering Respiratory Problems After Acid Rains In Iran https://en.radiofarda.com/a/hundreds-...

..."
That's been done since Japan took over China in WW2, if not others before.
We can discount nothing (despite what ex-Guardian newspaper men might try to "inform" us)

Just saying...imagine if it was engineered

Yeah, like people who think Assange deserves everything he gets, yet their research consists of only mainstream media articles.
Again, I'm not saying Assange, or indeed Iran, are black and white issues. But traditional investigative journalists were supposed to dig a little deeper than just what other journos are saying!

I am saying we are only similar to animals that if someone
trespasses our individual territory we tend to retaliate and that's it. Unlike animals, we further create nation states and how it would be wrong to compare animal territories with nation states. The comparison is more apt for our house as opposed to our countries. But of course, as you said human minds are a lot more cunning and we destroy others for reasons beyond our primitive ones. It is something we in India are all too familiar with. We see slums getting flattened, the residents given less than 24 hours many a times to leave their abode. Often, they are forcibly removed from their homes in the middle of the night while the country is asleep. The land they homed is then sold for the construction of shopping malls or luxury residential buildings or corporate settlements.
In cities, these migrants from the rural areas are seen as parasites. They often take up the most menial of jobs, and as often happens, the smallest of jobs are some of the hardest in effort for which they get peanuts in return. They oil our economy with their labour. In speeches by our so-called esteemed politicians, they become scapegoats of all the institutional failures. They are often forced to go back to their villages, which they do not return to because they no longer exist. The villages have been wiped off the map, flattened for corporate project, mined for natural resources, removed for the construction of dams and power plants.
I guess, we can compare them to our big cats, rising in number but the forest and greens to where they belong are stripped and flattened, only the red dirt remains – like a wound.

Hundreds Of People Suffering Respiratory Problems After Acid Rains In Iran https://en.radiofarda.com/a/hundreds-......"
Similar to some urban areas in North India.

Like I said, these are individual choices, and there are no right or wrong answers to be had here. How we see the world is rooted in our own experience which is sometimes in our hand and most of the time, not. Optimism doesn't mean that there aren't wrongs, dangers, suppression or violence in the world. That in my view is foolishness. A pessimist to me has no fight or persistence because the world is already lost to him. Nor does embracing pessimism makes an argument more intellectual. Complacency is not a synonym of optimism either.

Yeah, like people who think..."
His persecution breaks my heart, as does the trial of Chelsea Manning. Chelsea Manning is so brave. I was touched by her willingness to stick by principles in face of torture and brutality. That, she ran for public office on such a compassionate, people-driven platform speaks volume to me about the strength of her character. After what she has gone through like, her gender dysphoria, her inability to pay for college tuition and her homelessness. Needless to mention, being witness to the brutality of war, it would have been easy to understand if she had chosen to become a misanthrope.

Once the brain was concieved its development was programmed in steps of consciousness and experience which is not unlike the fears facing AI, that it will develop a life of its own. Or, put another way, its like drinking from a spitoon; once started its hard to stop.

In the face of such evidence of social and mental disfunction that you see all around you in India, Ricky, you are to be admired for your dedication to optimism and faith in the better nature that some people have acquired from their experience but if you see the better side of the fundamentalism of the natural world you cannot ignore the basic drivers of that world; food, sex, conquest and survival, or if you do optimism is no more than a panacea rather than a cure.

Which goes to prove that scientists have a great sense of humour too.

I've heard they deliberately put vapor in the air for behavioral purposes and environmental changes?
Anyone know?
..."
Never heard of that, Iain. I think that oil particles in the air mixed with othe chemicals is sufficient to cause breathing problems. It is happening to an increasing degree in London and Bristol. The Arctic fires that have been burning all summer in Russia might have something to do with problems in Iran too at this time of year.

Russia secretly delivered S-400 systems to Iran! Israel and the U.S. are in shock!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1s24..."
Not convinced by the sattelite imagery. If true I cannot believe it wasn't flagged-up by US intel. I wonder how Iran will pay for these expensive toys? Turkey is said to be buying them but there are serious question even there being asked about the cost. What was interesting about this blog was the tenor of the support it got

The link commented on the inability of Syria to buy air defence systems, "and look what happened to them". I also noted that the US came out and said, after dissing the Kurds, it was going to take measures to protect the Syrian oil fields from ISIS AND from Damascus. Which shows the real interest of the US

How well would the Iranians use them? Hard to say, but their elite forces are probably well-disciplined and they are not stupid. It is possible they might be effective with them. You also have to remember the US air power has not really fought any competent defence in recent times. If it is Saudi air power the Iranians are up against, I back the Iranians.

Russia secretly delivered S-400 systems to Iran! Israel and the U.S. are in shock!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1s24..."
Not c..."
There won't be much doubt about the performance of the S-400 missiles; Norway has just monitored the entire Russian northern sub fleet crossing from the White Sea into the Atlantic. 8 nuclear and 2 diesel subs. Along the way they fired a missile from outside Archangel in the White Sea across Russia to the Kamchatdka Peninsula on the Bering Sea, nearly 4000 miles. It would be the reliability of the sattelite/radar efficiency of the system that might not be up to scratch in shooting down a serious missile attack. But that won't bother Russia too much, deployment of defensive systems outside their territory and within NATO strike areas is another boost to their spread of influence to counter that of the US - and China. While the US cuts itself away from the world Russia is now going head-to-head with China in several areas of Africa. But I am still sceptical of this rumour of letting Iran have S-400's. To be effective a missile defence system needs to be complete with no holes. I hear what others are saying about the cost but to employ a complete system (and not to do so is a waste of money) we are talking billions of dollars. I know the S-400 costs are said to be 50% less than the Patriot system (and why Turkey are thinking about it, and hoping the US can be urged to supply Patriots for similar cost) but it is still an outlay that Iran can't afford. Anyway, another reason to be sceptical is, despite the Russia/Iran bed-fellow games, an oil war in the Gulf can only be to Russia's benefit.

The incident occurred amid increasing tension between the United States and Iran in the Persian Gulf region, leading U.S. officials to suspect Iran of being behind the attack. The United Arab Emirates government did not accuse any perpetrators, stating that the report of the investigation probe must first be finalized.[7] The government of Iran called for an international investigation of the incident, describing it as a possible false flag operation.[1][2][8] The United States accused the Iran Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) of being "directly responsible" for the attacks.[9] The findings of an Emirati-led international investigation into the attacks has stated that a sophisticated and coordinated operation by divers from fast boats utilized limpet mines to breach the hull of the ships, concluding that a "state actor" is the most likely culprit.[10][11] A similar incident took place a month later on 13 June 2019.



I cannot see any logic to anyone but Iran being responsible. I also cannot see why such an operation is particularly sophisticated given that those ships, at that time, or even now, would be protected by electronic counter-terrorism monitors. That the news of the operation does not seem to have been flagged at the time rather kills the idea that it was done by US/Israel/UK agents as there was no follow-up propaganda offensive involved. It is now cold-mutton so who cares?

You may not care that certain wars and conflicts are (sometimes) being "engineered" via false flag attacks -- others do care. Myself included.
And in the extensive history of proven false flags operations, not all were followed up with offensives. Sometimes intelligence agencies or the upper echelons of a nation's military may be testing the waters...Sometimes it may take a series of false flag attacks to eventually manufacture consent from politicians and/or the public for military strikes...

You may not care that certain wars and conflicts are (sometimes) being "engineered" via false flag attacks -- others do care. Myself included.
..."
I would care for any war to occur, especially in the Gulf but this particular incident(s) is already history and superceded by other incidents, none of which seem to have escalated so I am not going to have a sleepless night disecting what might have been. Cold mutton. I'll wait for the next course.


Unless the other side is itching to retaliate.


True.

You may not care that certain wars and conflicts are (sometimes) being "engineered" via false flag attacks -- others..."
As the theme song to a great Gregory Peck movie, Twelve O'clock High, about a US bomber squadron (appropriately) said, 'We are poor little lambs who have lost our way, baaa, baaa, baaa..'

You may not care that certain wars and conflicts are (sometimes) being "engin..."
Greg was my favourite actor of those years. He did make those films, Iain and also more frothy ones like, ' Roman Holiday' with Katherine Hepburn. But he was a serious man and married a journalist and led a non-Hollywood life. I haven't heard of a remake of The Damn Busters. I think it would be difficult as there are only about two Lancs still airworthy. I am about to watch Peter Jackson's, 'We will remember them'. His reediting of World War 1 photos and film with audio memorobilia. If anyone could do it I suppose he could. My old RAF mates are that; old. Like me. We are as out-of-touch with the modern service as Dakotas are to Typhoons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyMOG...

You may not care that certain wars and..."
Yes, decent book too; Le Carre's best. Bloom and Burton; now there's a fine win-double. The don't get better than that. I did some acting once and met Burton when he was pulling Liz Taylor over London, showing her off to his boozy friends. We had a good night in The Salisbury, Drury Lane, the hang-out for actors in those days.
Some journalists take their profession seriously. It's more difficult these days when they have to compete with the sound-bites of the camera media, but there are still a few around who are allowed to write stories in some detail. However, even the Daily Telegraph will soon be up for sale as the owners are off-loading as they are in their eighties. From a paper down to 600k from 1.8million readers and still going down they will have mostly asset stripping rivals interested. We will all be worse off with fewer newsprint and having to rely on the dubious reporting of social media; it's not all as interesting and fair as we are.

You may not care that certain wars and conflicts ar..."
Sorry, slip of the fingers; I meant to write, Audrey Hepburn; a different kind of gal. I agree about Katharine; never could understand why she was such a big star, nor why she was Spencer Tracy's muse for so many years. To me, her voice was just as disconcerting as her face. But nowadays she would have made a great gender-bender.

..."
Connecting dots to loosely related topics is your speciality Iain!

RAF, BEA, BBC, stage, a bit of tv/film, boredom, librarian/writer. journalism, then boredom again. A disfunctional urge to try something new.

You may not ..."
Yeah, Hedi Lammar was a class act among the Hollywood conveyor belt. What we now know (or some have just learned) about the prices being paid for getting anywhere in that field, she kept her nose aloof. They had to be some tough gals in those days. So you don't like that innocent elfin-faced Audrey Hepburn; so who did, or would, turn you on Iain; Nicola Sturgeon?
Liz was a cool cookie; she could hold her own in any company - and had a robust sense of humour, which she had to have with Richard. I do remember though not liking him on that evening. He overdid the 'Look what I've got' attitude with Liz, but we know he was just as much putty with her in private. That's probably why they split so often, he couldn't do without her but didn't want to show it. The inner puritan in me thought he should have stuck with his wife and got on with being a great actor.

You may not care that certain wars and conflicts ar..."
As war got away from hand-to-hand with knives and axes, so it was easier to kill. When I was trying for flying training in 1952, the then Tory Air Minister thought pilots were redundant, that we could just push buttons instead. Unfortunately, he is no longer with us to find he is almost now right. When you don't have to get your hands dirty decisions are easier. There, back to Iran again.

You may not care that cer..."
Nice scene that one, Iain. But the Bond thing isn't like that. I did have a sort of friend who was a spook. He didn't talk too much about the job but I got the imrpression it was all about checking things out, a bit like a copper. I don't know if he had Bond's licence either but he did get cold eyes a few times when someone (usually a drunk as we always met in pubs) annoyed us. I think he was trying to recruit me as I can't believe my conversation or my looks was the attraction.

Yeah, it showed how cool Hedy was, even then. What amazed me was the date;1969. Time really flies when you're havin fun.

..."
I agree, Iain. Cornwell did get near to not understanding that 'ordinary' need not be boring, but plot development through good dialogue is an essential tool of the good filmaker as it is for the writer. But he did overdo it with 'A Small Town In Germany.' I think working in Bonn got into his bones; we always said it was the most boring town in Europe.
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Yes. Like Stalin. Russian Revolution.
The caste system is a very good example of staying in one's lane. And while we are at social structures, birds are a great example of maintaining social traditions esp. when it comes to attracting a mate. I love birds. They have always been so aspirational and wonderfully linked to human beings through the process of art. They have always inspired culture in human beings; our philosophers, poets and writers have gone on great length about them. There are even theories among ornithologists that birds taught human beings to sing. If anyone here is interested in birds, this is a wonderful blog (not mine).
https://otbirds.com