The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm trying to decide how it is in a book that mentions actual space travel, wormholes, a solar system today's space-travel lovin' SF fans could plausibly have heard of, and has a reasonable travel time from Mars using chemical rockets...has instantaneous communication to a ship at least ten light minutes away? To quote Pretty Woman, "Big mistake. Huge!"

And so easily explained away. Throw in a bit about hyperwave, or quantum-entangled communication devices. If you're going to say "JSC" and expect the audience to be space-savvy enough to flash on "Johnson Space Center" without explanation, then they are also going to know the speed of light and round trip communication time to Martian orbit.

I get that we're in "the world next door" since there ain't no wormhole spotted in 1998. Nor would the fast-forward of 14 years bring us to anything like the future. I can suspend disbelief. But throw me a bone!

Peeps who've read on, is this explained later? Pleeeaaaasssseeee let it be explained later.

Also,(view spoiler)[ I'm not sure if the "she's not who she seems to be" heavy foreshadowing is bait or not. I want to say the MC is an emissary from the planet, partially forged from her memories. Please don't let it be that. (hide spoiler)]

John (Taloni) wrote: "I'm trying to decide how it is in a book that mentions actual space travel, wormholes, a solar system today's space-travel lovin' SF fans could plausibly have heard of, and has a reasonable travel ..."is

I'm not reading along, nor am I particularly science minded, so we have a completely uniformed opinion entering the discussion here, but the way you describe it, that sure sounds like a lot of good science, with one teeny bit you lack explanation for. You might expect if an author uses understood concepts well, she would get the benefit of the doubt more often than not, but that doesn't seem to be the case. In fact, it seems like the more an author tries to get something right, the more people look for the wrong. I'm not criticising this response, mind you, I just think it's interesting. I noticed it too with The Calculating Stars, where so much research had been done, experts consulted, yet people would get hung up on little details they didn't think seemed right. Is it better to be vague and hand-wavey with the science, do you think, to avoid raising expectations, or is a little bad science among the good okay?

It is lazy writing. She could have explained the frustrations of waiting for a reply.

John (Taloni) wrote: "And so easily explained away. Throw in a bit about hyperwave, or quantum-entangled communication devices."

No, don't use quantum-entanglement. That is even worse science and has been abused by sci-fi authors.

Physicists are quite adamant that information can't be transferred that way.

In physics, the no-communication theorem or no-signaling principle is a no-go theorem from quantum information theory which states that, during measurement of an entangled quantum state, it is not possible for one observer, by making a measurement of a subsystem of the total state, to communicate information to another observer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-comm...

Tassie Dave wrote: "It is lazy writing. She could have explained the frustrations of waiting for a reply."

That was one of my thoughts. The guy waiting (can't recall name) could have been getting frustrated since he knew others would be waking up / getting involved soon so his time was limited.

Ruth: Appreciate the POV and yes, we did nitpick TLA. I know I did, partly because the scene setting was overall so well done. This one is like doing an otherwise great submarine scene, then the crew open a porthole underwater to get a better look.

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Is it better to be vague and hand-wavey with the science, do you think, to avoid raising expectations, or is a little bad science among the good okay?.."

I've not started this yet, but in general my thought on the issue is... "Pick a lane".

If you're going to ground a story in known science then you need to make everything work that way. No instantaneous comms across light-minutes (or more), etc.

OR...

if you're going to be hand wavy with things and introduce wormholes that we can use to travel across light years feel free to introduce other things that violate known science as long as they're internally consistent in the story.

Either approach is fine - mixing them usually doesn't work. This error sounds like, well, an error, nothing more.

I dont recall anything in the book that said there was instant communication. just the opposite: constantly told about communication lag, windows of opportunity, etc. comments about sending reports back even though NASA wouldn't be able to react since it would take years to arrive, if at all.

Leesa, I'm talking about when the ship pops out of the wormhole into the Solar System at about the orbit of Mars - a minimum of nine light minutes away. Cal Morganson is grilling Catherine Wells over the radio and their interaction is real-time. At about the 2% mark of the book. I'm otherwise in agreement with your statement, which is why I found it so jarring. The author even mentions a three month timeframe for the ship to make it back to Earth.

As I was reading I just assumed they were skipping the lag, just assuming the wait time.

To be fair, it wasn't significant to the plot.

William wrote: "As I was reading I just assumed they were skipping the lag, just assuming the wait time.

To be fair, it wasn't significant to the plot."

I hadn’t thought about it until I read this thread but yeah... that was an oversight. I feel like the time lag could have added extra dramatic tension.

Ruth wrote: "I hadn’t thought about it until I read this thread but yeah... that was an oversight. I feel like the time lag could have added extra dramatic tension."

In retrospect I agree, it was a missed opportunity.

At the time I didn't pay too much attention as I got sucked into the book and practically got friction burns turning the pages.

William wrote: "At the time I didn't pay too much attention as I got sucked into the book and practically got friction burns turning the pages. "

Glad to hear it! The characters are pretty well done. Well, I'm at 10%, so they're well done so far.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Glad to hear it! The characters are pretty well done. Well, I'm at 10%, so they're well done so far. "

My very short review is here. I really don't think it's spoilery if you're at 10%.

(view spoiler)["This book was chosen by a bookclub I follow. I wasn't really sure if I would like it, but I got the book, read the first page....and seemed to loose time. When I became aware of my surroundings it was late at night and I had finished the book!

I would seek counselling but I'm sure they'd just tell me that it's a normal reaction...

A darn good book, and joking aside - yes I read it all. " (hide spoiler)]

There are several other instances, when the science is off, like it is important to get to the whole in a tight time frame, but it is ok to go back at any time

Just finished the book a day or so ago... A perfectly competent science thriller with good characterisation.

However there are a couple of real howlers when it comes to the science. I will stick them in spoiler braces as they pertain to the end of the book.

1. Orbital Mechanics: (view spoiler)[ How on Earth does the Sagittarius 2.5 catch up to Sagittarius 2. It is leaving at least a month later and has missed the optimal orbital transfer point to Mars. That said a straight line fast as you can go speed with current technology is just over a month and there was no mention of any improved rocket drive (well I guess there has to be one or it wouldn't work).

This could have been solved by catching up enough to get in communication range. This is just sloppy writing as the rush for Sagittarius 2 to leave was due to optimal orbital transfers which means Sagittarius 2.5 would have to take longer (I think optimal travel time is about 9 months unless we have a Expanse style improvement in propulsion...). (hide spoiler)]

2: 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and Life: (view spoiler)[ Catherine and Addy play host to a hive mind "infection" with no visible effect. The human brain uses about 20% of our total energy consumption! The hive mind is intelligent and at least self-maintaining. If it is in the brain and making use of the processing power it has to be consuming some energy and making some noticeable changes to the architecture of the brain. If we look at a significant increase in power consumption they should be easting significantly more or looking like they were starving. No idea how this was missed in the examinations unless NASA are incompetent (I know they saw the antibodies, but there must have been some "lichen" there to.

Note the brain uses about 20W so you could expect a reasonable increase on this.
(hide spoiler)]

3: Stealth (view spoiler)[ Giant invisible rock monsters. This is straight out of the Doctor Who playbook. Maybe they contain a black hole so they can bend light around the large massive object...

Snort...
(hide spoiler)]

This wouldn't have bugged me so much if the book hadn't been playing up the hard-science aspect of it at the beginning.

^Will read those once I'm done, thanks for spoiler protecting.

And on that note, right about the 53% mark....

(view spoiler)[NASA wasn't concerned that they found an antibody for an organism not found on Earth? WASN'T CONCERNED?!?!?!?! Wasn't concerned that Catherine Wells could be a carrier for something that could, oh, I dunno, WIPE OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH?!?!?!

*flings hands in air*

Yes, I know NASA did the same for Astronauts returning from the Moon. That was the Moon. This is from an alien star system THAT HAS LIFE. Wells should have been quarantined in space and not let on Earth until completely checked out.

No, I'm not hating the book, the characterization is really well done, but.....*grumble, grumble.* (hide spoiler)]

I look forward to reading those science howlers once I'm finished. (About 40% done)

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is one of my go-tos to explain why ghosts not only Don't exist, but Can't exist.

It is a basic and unbreakable law that all sci-fi writers should know.

I don't mind if sci-fi authors bend a fundamental Law of Physics to make a story interesting. Just don't break it..

In Fantasy, break all the LOPs you like, as long as your universe is consistent.

John Taloni - that spoiler is one of my pet peeves and, I think, would make me DNF this. One of the things I can't really deal with is when the author does some thing just so the book doesn't fall apart. (view spoiler)[ NASA not caring or following up on something like that is an example of "smart people do stupid thing/miss obvious thing just to keep the plot going" (hide spoiler)]

I’m not sure if this falls under the ‘bad science’ umbrella, but there seemed like a LOT of loose ends needed tying up at the end of the book. I finished and thought: where’s the last 100 pages? The last 15 pages of the book we have has so much sketchy and implausible plot development that it felt like an outline for the missing 100 pages.

Was excited about the premise of an guest author pick. I even shelled out $13 for the kindle edition. Now at 50% I’m sad. I don’t know how to do the hide the spoiler function so that’s all I’ll say for now. I’ll finish it but it is not a good book. Much prefer the Lady Astronaut series by far.

Hi Luise,

I also spent the cash for it instead of waiting for a library copy and, well, I'm glad a beginning author got some cash. That's about all. Will hold off on details until others chime in. Some loved it.

As for the spoiler tags, you can follow the link at the upper right of the box, "(some html is ok)". But as a quick primer, it goes like this.

< spoiler > text < /spoiler >

Now take out the spaces.

(view spoiler)[Like this! (hide spoiler)]

John (Taloni) wrote: "Hi Luise,

I also spent the cash for it instead of waiting for a library copy and, well, I'm glad a beginning author got some cash. That's about all. Will hold off on details until others chime in...."

Thanks for the instructions John.

Who is the narrator when the story returns to Sagittarius?

Well...(view spoiler)[at first it's omniscent narrator - no one in particular. (hide spoiler)]

One could argue that (view spoiler)[ the scientists at NASA don't have enough influence to override what the PR people at NASA are trying to accomplish. They push Catherine into being their press monkey when she is having drinking problems, struggling with PTSD, and going through a divorce, I mean come on, maybe it isn't so much what they aren't doing science wise and the disconnect between the science and the politics. I'd say that with our current administration's disdain for science, it would not be impossible for something like that to happen. IGNORE SCIENCE. FAKE NEWS. WE HAVE THE BEST SPACE PROGRAM. (hide spoiler)]

I enjoyed this book, but (view spoiler)[It would have been nice if the rules/tech for communication with Earth were explained. It was confusing. There definitely seemed to be some plot holes in the science like others mentioned. (hide spoiler)]

not strictly science but I didn't buy the idea that the main character was a Test Pilot.
I know that (view spoiler)[ she's under pressure, possessed by aliens and fears sharing the fate of the only other astronaut to go through the wormhole (hide spoiler)] but Test Pilots are trained to observe, analyse and report. There are stories of test Pilots doing just this as their aircraft plunged to earth in a fireball.
She just cowers and drinks.
i kept saying to myself "why don't you just tell someone!"
I didn't find her reasons for secrecy convincing enough given who she was supposed to be. This might be because I'm a hard-hearted cynic who wasn't paying attention.

TRP wrote: "not strictly science but I didn't buy the idea that the main character was a Test Pilot.
I know that [spoilers removed] but Test Pilots are trained to observe, analyse and report. There are storie..."

That I can buy (view spoiler)[ the aliens are preventing her from telling.... (hide spoiler)]

TRP wrote: "not strictly science but I didn't buy the idea that the main character was a Test Pilot.
I know that [spoilers removed] but Test Pilots are trained to observe, analyse and report. There are storie..."

A few factors, I think - (view spoiler)[ #1 aliens controlling her brain? I mean that's the biggest reason she's keeping it secret. They are feeding her paranoia and fear along pretty effectively, although she and others might just interpret it as #2 the PTSD from spending 6 years in isolation. I would think either of these on their own may serve to override even the best training. Some of it kicks in for sure but it almost serves to dehumanize her narrative. (hide spoiler)]

William wrote: "As I was reading I just assumed they were skipping the lag, just assuming the wait time.

To be fair, it wasn't significant to the plot."

The problem I have with the book just skipping the lag is that it was a wasted opportunity to provide insight into her state of mind at the end of the voyage. Her thoughts as she waited for earth to respond would have helped flesh out what her mental state was.

Not bad science but (view spoiler)[isn't it standard practice to have a backup crew for NASA missions just in case one member can't go? But somehow Cal and Catherine are the only ones who can go out there to chase Sag II? (hide spoiler)] I don't think this is a spoiler, but it also seems logical that every crew members would have specializations. So did I miss the job descriptions of everyone on the Sagittarius crew?

Okay, so, in defense of that point...

(view spoiler)[It's really a new mission. Not replacing one person in a six person crew, but doing an entirely new two-person "chase" mission. They aren't replicating the mission that went, they're doing a stripped down mission for speed. (hide spoiler)]

Robert wrote: "Not bad science but [spoilers removed] I don't think this is a spoiler, but it also seems logical that every crew members would have specializations. So did I miss the job descriptions of everyone ..."

I think this question has other ramifications too, (view spoiler)[like if you think about it it is pretty amazing that one person could get a spaceship back to earth without any communication (ie: Houston we have a problem) to fill in the knowledge gaps. I suppose when you're in outer space you can leave your seat to go make some dinner or take a nap? Maybe it's like tv ER doctors who can wake up and be scalpel ready in under five seconds? Not to divert your thoughts.... (hide spoiler)]

TRP wrote: "not strictly science but I didn't buy the idea that the main character was a Test Pilot.
I know that [spoilers removed] but Test Pilots are trained to observe, analyse and report. There are storie..."

I don't really agree with this. If you read accounts of the original test pilot astronauts, there is definitely a precedent for hiding things and drinking. Many of the Gemini and Apollo astronauts were well known to be drinkers, and there was more than one incident of astronauts hiding things they thought might ground them.

I thought that one of the most realistic things about this book was the personalities of the astronauts. I've read a lot of non-fiction books by and about astronauts and this book had the same feel in the decisions and the dialogue.

I just started the book and the lack of a time lag is very clearly NOT a case of the delays being edited out. I’ve read enough SF to know when that’s being done, and it’s not happening here.

If there’s no explanation later then that’s definitely a case of bad science.

I haven’t read any of the spoilers but already I can tell she’s not human. Either this is an instance of a shape-shifter or possession. I suppose the other explanation is that she’s in an alien holodeck, but at the moment (chapter 4) I put that scenario as a distant third because of the (ugh) missing memory.

Kinda hoping this is a Skrull situation rather than Manchurian Candidate in Spaaace, just because shape-shifters are less common than The Puppet Masters.

My holodeck comment may have been more on-point than I suspected. Mostly because this feels like Star Trek. It has that exact same level of Space Fantasy with the Treknobabble.

I don’t know why I initially thought this was going to be more Hard SF — I guess from early remarks about it maybe? — but it’s not. This is basically Enterprise.