The Sword and Laser discussion

I’ve seen a few people say they didn’t find Rin, our protagonist, particularly likeable, and I think that’s true- although I did find her actions understandable most of the time. She is certainly very determined to achieve her goals, even at the expense of her own health (eg sleep deprivation to pass the keju). I found this determination provided a strong consistent thread in her characterisation throughout the book, making her compelling even if I didn’t especially like her.

Character I felt sorry for: Kesegi, Rin’s little brother who she (view spoiler)[ abandons with their horrible parents early in the book and then never goes to visit (hide spoiler)]

Character I grew to like: Nezha. He reminded me a bit of Draco Malfoy, but I think he redeemed his early arrogance before (view spoiler)[ dying heroically in battle (hide spoiler)]

Character I liked/identified with a bit: Kitay, the gentle nerdy boy forced into a martial education by his family.

Character who annoyed me (but I think he was supposed to be annoying): Master Jiang. He’s like a stoned old hippie yoga teacher making you do a thousand vinyasas while he sits in the lotus position and gets high.

Character who left me weirdly cold: Altan.

What do y’all think?

Kinda funny, I related to Rin right away. Maybe it was the martial arts, as her experiences were straight out of reality. I can't say I thought much about the step brother. The parents were appalling and she couldn't do anything for him.

Altan seems to be limiting himself and I'm not sure why.

Loved loved loved Jiang. He's a Zen master in the eccentric tradition. The Ants Screaming bit for the Bodhidharma had me rolling.

Of the instructors, Irjan is cool. He has limits and seems to know them, doing the best he can within that. Jun is just a butthole. A bully with physical skills and no leadership ability, toadying to the upper classes.

I like Kitay, partly because I overthink things like him and want the entire world to make sense on an intellectual level, even though it never does. Also, I dunno if this is an in joke or not as I don't know much about Chinese names, but "Kaete" meaning "turn around" is used when doing Kihon (Basics, like front punch or up block). If his name is pronounced Kai-tay then it's a homonym. A'course if it's pronounced "Kee-tay" then I would be off base. But in the absence of more information, it made me smile.

As for Nezha, at about the 50% mark (view spoiler)[he's not dead yet. He's only resting. (hide spoiler)]

I liked Kitay. Rin was way too intense for me but I admire her perseverance.

There was a character who was brought back just to (view spoiler)[have her telling about her rape and abuse. Then that's it. Rin did not even have a real reaction. (hide spoiler)] It still bugs me.

Run drove me nuts. she became predictable (assume she will do the most dramatic, over the top thing to solve any problem and that is what she will do). the thing that really drove me nuts with her character was the lack of continuity between her opinions at the beginning of the book and the end. Her drug of choice is a prime example of this for me. and then her weird addiction to Altan who can do no wrong? Gross. and why can't she just listen to someone for once who is not Altan?!

Kitay was my favourite character because he showed the most growth and remained 'good'. I also thought he would have made a good gay character.

Jiang i enjoyed but he left too soon.

Nezha is just Draco Malfoy. nothing really new with him.

I’m not one of those people who needs to like the characters in a book in order to enjoy the story, but these characters are not just uniformly unlikeable, they are aggravating and annoying. The only character I actually liked in the whole book was the pig,(view spoiler)[ and he gets butchered. (hide spoiler)]

Silvana wrote: "I liked Kitay. Rin was way too intense for me but I admire her perseverance.

There was a character who was brought back just to [spoilers removed] It still bugs me."

Yeah that spoiler bugged me too!

John (Taloni) wrote: "Kinda funny, I related to Rin right away. Maybe it was the martial arts, as her experiences were straight out of reality. I can't say I thought much about the step brother. The parents were appalli..."

Also, I dunno if this is an in joke or not as I don't know much about Chinese names, but "Kaete" meaning "turn around" is used when doing Kihon (Basics, like front punch or up block). If his name is pronounced Kai-tay then it's a homonym. A'course if it's pronounced "Kee-tay" then I would be off base.

In the audiobook iirc Kitay is pronounced ‘Ki-tai’

I sometimes wonder if likeable characters are just characters that would make the same decisions we would.
I couldn't wholly relate to any of the characters, but I still really liked this book. I think the change in the relationship between Nezha and Rin was my favourite part of the character building. It felt false to me at first, until I stopped and thought "would people truly waste energy on a teenage feud while in the midst of a horrific war?" and realized, yeah, maybe some would... but for others, the perspective would change them deeply from who they previously were.

I found the push and pull between jiang and altan with rin really interesting.

The one problem i had was with nezha and how his attitude towards rin shifted. I know it was brought on by the war, but it felt kind of abrupt

Also, prob not an original thought, but i noticed a similarity between rin and G.O.T's Dani, in terms of obtaining, falling and being consumed by power.

Matthew wrote: "I found the push and pull between jiang and altan with rin really interesting."

Agreed. Rin knew Jiang was probably right and should be listened to, but the draw of Altan and his power was too strong. It almost seemed like she was attracted to him in part because she wanted to be him.

I definitely didn't like the characters very much. Normally that hurts my enjoyment of a book, but it wasn't too much of a detriment of this one.

I like Rin at the start, but as the book went on I liked her less and less.

I agree with Ruth about Nezha. It's easy to just write him off as a "Draco Malfoy" at the start, but his character development was a lot different. Maybe because the school is only part of this book instead of the whole series though.

Kitay was my favorite of the students and I agree with John about Irjan. I did like Jiang as well.

I agree with Rob, I liked Rin at the start but as the book progressed I found I liked her less and less. Although, I didn't like what she was doing towards the end, it felt like it was completely in character for her to do so.
I think Jiang was my favourite character, followed by Kitay- I wish they were featured more in the second half of the book.

Matthew wrote: "I found the push and pull between jiang and altan with rin really interesting.

The one problem i had was with nezha and how his attitude towards rin shifted. I know it was brought on by the war, b..."

My guess is that the push/pull between Jiang and Atlan isn't finished yet. Jiang is currently entombed in the mountain, and Atlan was kind of a stand in for the Phoenix. (I also say that it's possible we'll see Atlan again, no body after all). So while Rin ultimately ended up with Atlan at the end of this book, I suspect she's going to waffle a bit more for the remainder of the series.

It's fascinating how empathy for fictional characters works with current-day audiences. E.g. If you have a character who commits a rape or harms a child, it's going to be nearly impossible to ever make them sympathetic after that point. But you can have a protagonist who (view spoiler)[commits genocide on a whole nation (hide spoiler)] and still have a lot of readers be on her side. I wonder if it's the difference between a personal crime that's clear and understandable and one on a scale that defies comprehension:

Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god. (Jean Rostand, 1938)

Even on this thread, most of the comments about the characters and their "likeability" has more to do with personality traits than actions. And I'm not immune to this, but I find it an interesting phenomenon.

Joe Informatico wrote: "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god. (Jean Rostand, 1938)"

Also, “one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.” (Joseph Stalin, 1947)

Joe Informatico wrote: "If you have a character who commits a rape or harms a child, it's going to be nearly impossible to ever make them sympathetic after that."

I think murder is always going to be easier to forgive than rape. A character may kill out of self defence, in a moment of rage or to protect a thing or an ideal. None of these things can be true of rape, which can only ever have selfish or cruel motivations. With children you have to go further to justify harming something so defenseless but I can think of tons of situations, real and fictional, in which I could forgive the crime, which I won't bother detailing because they are too depressing.

I also think distance can be more important than numbers. If you press a button and a baby somewhere in the world immediately stops breathing that's bad, but it's worse if you cradle a baby in your arms and slowly plunge a knife into its chest because you can see and feel the results right there in front of you.

I felt that Rin's decisions to not listen to good advice from people that she had respect for got very irritating as the book progressed. Knowing this is a series I'm guessing we will see some growth and development from her in the future and hopefully a lot more maturity. While she bothered me in this book I have hopes that it will turn around in subsequent novels.

Steph wrote: "I felt that Rin's decisions to not listen to good advice from people that she had respect for got very irritating as the book progressed. Knowing this is a series I'm guessing we will see some grow..."

She still has a bratty attitude in the second book, but gets called out on it more though. Also (view spoiler)[since she still has problems with her control, she's not reliable as weapon or soldier. (hide spoiler)]