Reading 1001 discussion

Buddy Read, Mill on the Floss, hosted by Amanda Dawn

Apologies for jumping in here before Amanda has a chance to post anything.
I mostly just want to say that I began my audiobook of this in early November, but going slowly while reading others. I've enjoyed Jill Tanner's reading of it. I reached the 55% point a couple days ago and will speed it up now that December has arrived for the buddy-read discussion.
The "Catching Up on Classics" group has a bicentennial challenge going to read some of Eliot's work this year, as she was born in 1819, and I read Silas Marner earlier this year as my 1st Eliot read.

Hey all, thanks for joining me for my second buddy read. I have the audiobook ready to go right after I finish my TBR (should only take a few days). To get us started here is a summary of the book and a quick author bio:

Book Summary (from Goodreads): Brought up at Dorlcote Mill, Maggie Tulliver worships her brother Tom and is desperate to win the approval of her parents, but her passionate, wayward nature and her fierce intelligence bring her into constant conflict with her family. As she reaches adulthood, the clash between their expectations and her desires is painfully played out as she finds herself torn between her relationships with three very different men: her proud and stubborn brother, a close friend who is also the son of her family's worst enemy, and a charismatic but dangerous suitor. With its poignant portrayal of sibling relationships, The Mill on the Floss is considered George Eliot's most autobiographical novel; it is also one of her most powerful and moving.

Author Bio: George Eliot, pseudonym of Mary Ann, or Marian, Cross, née Evans, (born November 22, 1819, Chilvers Coton, Warwickshire, England—died December 22, 1880, London), English Victorian novelist who developed the method of psychological analysis characteristic of modern fiction. Her major works include Adam Bede (1859), The Mill on the Floss (1860), Silas Marner (1861), Middlemarch (1871–72), and Daniel Deronda (1876). More here: https://www.britannica.com/biography/...

Questions:
1) Other than being a main setting of the book, what is the symbolic significance of the Mill and the River Floss in the novel? Are there any other symbols/repeated imagery you noticed in the book?

2) Some of the main themes of the novel are loss of innocence and the benefits of hardship: how does Eliot marry these ideas in the book? Also, how do you feel about her exploration of hardship as beneficial? Consider it in quotes like this one: “But Maggie, gifted with that superior power of misery which distinguishes the human being, and places him at a proud distance from the most melancholy chimpanzee, sat still on her bough, and gave herself up to the keen sense of unmerited reproach.”

3) How do some of Maggie’s childhood conflicts in the book foreshadow her greater troubles in later life?

4) In the book, Maggie is highly intelligent, yet instead of being considered smart, she is viewed as "unnatural" by her father and others. How does the book explore the relationship between gender and intelligence, as well as conformity? Do you feel like this novel has feminist elements to it- or not- given how Maggie responds to pressures from her family?

5) The book has been written as a case study in both determinism and free-will. In this novel, are characters’ futures a matter of circumstance, a matter of character, or a combination of the two? Do you feel like this is true to life?

6) What do you think of Tom Tulliver? Is he a sympathetic character at all?

7) How did you feel about the ending of the book? What effect does it have thematically and on the reading experience? Why do you think the conclusion was added after the climax?

8) And as always: What did you think of it? Do you feel like it belongs on the list?

Discuss!

I have a lot of end of year reading to do so I do not think I will get to this long book. However, I am going to read it over the next few months. I therefore can’t be part of the buddy read but I will answer the questions when I am done. Thank you Amanda for posting them.

No probs Gail :) I know George is still in on this, so I have at least one other "buddy" for the read. Just curious, anyone else likely doing this one this month?

I'm listening to the audiobook and am now on disc 17 of 20, so should be done soonish. It is kind of long.
It seems to alternate between some really good parts, mostly when there is dialog, and some dull parts where there's no dialog. "Eliot" seemed to make an effort to use the most impressive possible verbiage at these times (and she was very good at it). I enjoy some less-common vocabulary but she went overboard I think, but I also think perhaps that was the style of the times.

I did finish "The Mill..." a couple days ago. My thoughts on the novel are about the same as per my last post. I would add that the ending didn't seem integrated much with the rest of the novel but a device to give it a quick conclusion.
Even though I have made some negative comments about it I do admire Eliot's abilities- her command of and facility with the language are quite remarkable. However in my opinion while her Silas Marner belongs in the 1001 Books list, I don't think "The Mill.." quite qualifies.

Just started it and have great hopes to finish before year end!

Kristel wrote: "Just started it and have great hopes to finish before year end!"

Oh lovely! Hopefully you can clear it :)

I finished it about a week ago and will likely put up my thoughts today or tomorrow.

Alrighty, I finished this one a few weeks ago but am just getting to questions now. We’ll see if we get anyone else finishing before the month closes.

Questions:
1) The Mill represents order (like the free will and personal choice aspect of life) and planning and adaptation, and the river represents the ever flowing current of time and the chaos of forces we can’t control that sweep us through it (which speaks to the determinism theme in another question here). Appropriate given the book deals in the tradeoff between self-will and forging your way versus fate and unstoppable circumstance. Maggie’s appearance as darker than the rest of her family is another motif used to demonstrate her more free willed unconventional nature compared to the rest of her family.

2) I agreed with the author treating a certain degree of struggle as beneficial to ensuring perseverance but in the doctrines that Maggie becomes invested in and in the narration I felt it went too far at times to fetishize suffering in a conventional religious way without it actually being to the benefit of anyone. However, I was intrigued by how she explored the themes of suffering being related to our ability to feel higher complex emotions, and that being a tradeoff with things life joy completing our humanity (as demonstrated by the chosen quote).

3) Her difficulty defying her family especially in regards to men in her life like Phillip is recurrent.

4) I feel like the novel explores how to be an actively academic woman who doesn’t make concessions of her intelligence for the fragile egos, is itself a form of nonconformity and rebellion that plagues Maggie in her family and community. She often gives in to their demands in the book regardless, which while maybe not a feminist action from her, still means the book explores how women trade their autonomy for the sake of their families, especially so specifically older brothers will be the successful ones, which I think is a pretty feminist theme.

5) As is true to real life, a combo of the two (as also illustrated by the symbolism of the mill in question 1). A good scene for this in my opinion is where the river takes Maggie and Stephen away without their choice, but she rejects his marriage proposal by exerting her will.

6) Didn’t like him and had a hard time sympathizing with him. I know this book is from a different time, but I thought he was the height of male entitlement and a boring “business is everything” personality that I find enough in business majors, and can’t stand.

7) It was tragic but I liked it. It seemed true to the themes of the book and shows Maggie and Tom having the ultimate reconciliation. I liked the added conclusion that shed some more light on the themes of how the town moved on after the flood and how Phillip and Stephen felt about Maggie’s death.

8) I agree with George that Silas Marner was a stronger book in my opinion, but I did think “The Mill…” was masterful in its own right and I would still put it on the list for the way it wove in many of the themes described above and was massively successful in its time.

1) Other than being a main setting of the book, what is the symbolic significance of the Mill and the River Floss in the novel? Are there any other symbols/repeated imagery you noticed in the book?

Even in the very beginning of the book, The Floss has a significance in the picture the author gives us, the potential for danger with the children playing by the river, the mother worrying that Maggie will drown in the river. The potential for floods is also alluded to early on so the river is a symbol of danger. An ominous presence in the book. Rivers also flow as does human life. The river is deep and what lies there is unknown. A mystery. The Mill represents economic stability, a living to be made, and a resource for the community.
St. Ogg is a tale of the boatman who takes the virgin across the river. It is represented in Mary who ends up in the boat and goes to rescue her family. Maggie's eyes which show us insights into Maggie but also insights into how others reacted to Maggie. I thought that the author did such a wonderful job of "painting a picture" with words.

2) Some of the main themes of the novel are loss of innocence and the benefits of hardship: how does Eliot marry these ideas in the book? Childhood is a time of innocence when we look back at it from our adult years. The author starts the book with a view back at childhood and the picture of the pleasant scene of the mill and floss and children playing. Then there is the going away, the loss of all that is home, and childhood memories as they Tullivers are forced to leave.

Also, how do you feel about her exploration of hardship as beneficial? I agree that under the circumstances (hardship) it is best to reframe it to something beneficial because to wallow in self pity is not helpful at all.

Consider it in quotes like this one: “But Maggie, gifted with that superior power of misery which distinguishes the human being, and places him at a proud distance from the most melancholy chimpanzee, sat still on her bough, and gave herself up to the keen sense of unmerited reproach.” Maggie could easily take on the role of martyr, she was so led by her emotions, that sometimes would over ride her intelligence".

3) How do some of Maggie’s childhood conflicts in the book foreshadow her greater troubles in later life? Maggie struggles with her emotions and controlling them, she is pictures as being so impulsive, never thinking about consequences.

4) In the book, Maggie is highly intelligent, yet instead of being considered smart, she is viewed as "unnatural" by her father and others. How does the book explore the relationship between gender and intelligence, as well as conformity? Do you feel like this novel has feminist elements to it- or not- given how Maggie responds to pressures from her family? Maggie really was the brighter of the two children though Tom was the steadier of the two. The book also shows that the female gender is at a great disadvantage at this time. I do feel it had a feminist element to it, even if it only points out how it was during this time in history."

5) The book has been written as a case study in both determinism and free-will. In this novel, are characters’ futures a matter of circumstance, a matter of character, or a combination of the two? Do you feel like this is true to life? I think life is made up of all of this. Our character and our circumstances both impact how our lives will evolve.

6) What do you think of Tom Tulliver? Is he a sympathetic character at all? I wanted to hate him, but every time I was getting very determined to hate him, Eliot would show us things that were good about Tom. I liked and appreciated that her characters were developed with both positive and negative characteristics.

7) How did you feel about the ending of the book? What effect does it have thematically and on the reading experience? Why do you think the conclusion was added after the climax? I felt that the ending was fitting given the foreshadowing from the beginning of the book. I still was so saddened that Maggie's life was so full of suffering caused by her brother who she put first in her life. The brother and sisters relationship was to the point of unnatural to me". But Maggie was yearning for an end to her misery. Tom lost more in the end than she did. Tom lost what he was driven to gain and that was money and the mill over his family.

8) And as always: What did you think of it? Do you feel like it belongs on the list? I loved this book. I think this one does belong on the list.

Ay you finished it in time! Glad to see: thanks for the great comments Kristel :)

1) Other than being a main setting of the book, what is the symbolic significance of the Mill and the River Floss in the novel? Are there any other symbols/repeated imagery you noticed in the book?
The mill, located on the River Floss, once belonged to the Tullivers, but was lost in a lawsuit. They are trying to reclaim it once again. The mill also represents industry and business. The river and water imagery is prominent in the book and is also key to the ending. The water has both positive and negative connotations, being both calming and destructive. Music is also a recurrent theme. There is also several references to Maggie's darker appearance. This sets her apart, as fairer appearances were viewed as more favorable and associated with higher social standing.

2) Some of the main themes of the novel are loss of innocence and the benefits of hardship: how does Eliot marry these ideas in the book? Also, how do you feel about her exploration of hardship as beneficial? Consider it in quotes like this one: “But Maggie, gifted with that superior power of misery which distinguishes the human being, and places him at a proud distance from the most melancholy chimpanzee, sat still on her bough, and gave herself up to the keen sense of unmerited reproach.”
There is a great deal of hardship here among the characters. Eliot shows us how each of these characters deal with this hardship in their own ways. Maggie seems almost to embrace that suffering.

4) In the book, Maggie is highly intelligent, yet instead of being considered smart, she is viewed as "unnatural" by her father and others. How does the book explore the relationship between gender and intelligence, as well as conformity? Do you feel like this novel has feminist elements to it- or not- given how Maggie responds to pressures from her family?
Typical Victorian gender inequalities regarding intelligence are seen here. Her intelligence and boldness are not in keeping with the gender roles for women. On the flip side, Philip challenges gender roles by being too sensitive, almost feminine.

5) The book has been written as a case study in both determinism and free-will. In this novel, are characters’ futures a matter of circumstance, a matter of character, or a combination of the two? Do you feel like this is true to life?
A combination of the two.

6) What do you think of Tom Tulliver? Is he a sympathetic character at all?
Not all that likable, but not entirely an unsympathetic character. He was forced to pick up the slack for his father at a young age, which wasn't really very fair. He isn't exactly a popular person in the book, either. Nevertheless, jerk or not, he didn't deserve all the misfortunes that befell him.

7) How did you feel about the ending of the book? What effect does it have thematically and on the reading experience? Why do you think the conclusion was added after the climax?
Depressing ending, but I get why the author chose to end it this way: familial bonds, etc.. Hey, how else were these to going to reach any kind of agreement? Still, I had held out hope for the characters. Despite the heavy foreshadowing, I didn't really see it coming due to my optimism. I should have known better since I have read so many other books by this author. Also, it would have been nice to learn more about what became of the remaining characters.

8) And as always: What did you think of it? Do you feel like it belongs on the list?
Despite being a total downer, I did like it. But...maybe it doesn't really need to be on the list. Yes, it is clever, but Eliot has a few books on the list, and this is far from her best work.