SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Link: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/chen_...

We'll be reading this novelette throughout February. Post comments and use spoiler tags when necessary.

Chen Qiufan writes great short stories (and maybe novel but I have yet to read Waste Tide) so I have high expectation on this one.

Starting today

Finished during dinner. Chen Qiufan does not disappoint!

It's not new, but I just enjoyed the way it was framed and narrated.

Love this kind of thought experiment. The end sounds like my kind of utopia.

Wow, this 1 is really intriguing! I’m gonna jot down some of my thoughts while reading because I’m having SO MANY. I have never before written so much for an online bookclub discussion....

(I’m sure all of you have your own anecdotes of procreation / attempts to conceive / travails of others’ such experiences, so if mine aren’t of interest to you, feel free to skip this “spoiler” section.)

(view spoiler)[Personal anecdotes jotted down before starting PART TWO:

Okay, about me: I’ve never felt the need to procreate. This is a scandalous statement for a young woman in Oklahoma, so I used to respond to scandalized listeners with “But I might change my mind someday.” Then at age 29 or 30 I really thought about it & realized I don’t think I’ll change my mind & I’ve stopped saying that caveat. Then I fell in love with a man who already had 2 adult children & didn’t want more; we ended up marrying; before he had a vasectomy the doctor insisted he ask me if they should freeze some of his sperm in case I want it later: I laughed & screamed “NO NO NO!”

Okay, about friends/family I thought of during this story:

--My cousin doesn’t have working ovaries, so she had an egg donor & IVF. There was a long wait when after she & her husband were ready to conceive because there happened to be a glut of tall blond egg donors so the clinic waited for a shorter darker haired donor to offer to my cousin (so the kids might look more like her).
--In an adoption context, “birth mother” or “biological mother” refer to the genetic mother (is there a term for this?), but in my cousin’s case, because she carried them (twins) & gave birth to them, she IS the “biological mother” (according to my father, an MD) though not their genetic mother. (This is not a distinction I’ve heard in other references to “biological mothers” [including the Catholic Church’s quote later in this story]. It’s also possible that I misunderstood my father’s point & he was just emphasizing that my cousin is her kids’ “real mother.”)
--Years after the twins’ birth, their father mentioned to me they’re still paying storage fees for the other embryos that were created. He said he would be okay with donating the embryos to scientific research (which surprised me a little considering his generally conservative views), but that my cousin didn’t want to do that. (More years have passed since that conversation & I’ve not inquired what/whether they’ve decided.)
--I found these aspects of their experience very interesting.

--My friend had a baby a few months ago & she said casually “I had a lot of anxiety while pregnant, so he’ll grow up with a personality disorder.” In her case (IVF but with her own eggs) she’s the kid’s mother by all definitions, but in the case of surrogacy, while the surrogate & the baby don’t share blood, there’s still a profound impact on the developing fetus from the mother’s hormones etc (& vice versa!). The story is investigating fascinating aspects of that.

--Last year I met a gal in her 30s who’s having her eggs frozen so she can continue her career & later (with or without a partner) have a child. Not a choice I’d make but certainly a good option for those who can afford/access it. (hide spoiler)]

My thoughts on the story:
PART ONE investigates some fascinating aspects/ramifications of the bond that naturally develops between surrogate mother & baby.
PART TWO:
“the OLPC (One Laptop Per Child) logo” This line made me smile. Good policy!
“you could have skipped the nervous system integrations.” OMG why would anyone NOT skip the nervous system integrations? LOL
““Pregnant” (2911)” typo or A FILM FROM THE FUTURE??? LOL
“At first we thought our biggest obstacle would be the technology. Now we’ve realized that our biggest obstacle is other people” ☹
PART TWO ends powerfully.
PART THREE:
“Its Christianity-based values and culture are worthless in the face of the great reproductive decline.” LOL soz not soz I enjoyed this sentence.
“I’ve been asked to reduce the proclamatory style of my rhetoric by about twenty degrees.” Also a fun sentence. 😊
“Brave New World” Thank you for mentioning my favorite-ever book. 😊
“laughably absurd” and for calling it “laughably absurd.” LOL
“we refuse to contribute to existing discrimination or new racial conflicts.” Wow, good goal: good luck with that.
“Each individual will have the freedom to determine their own sex. Or they may be entirely sexless.” Okay, that’s cool.
“only a third survived under the care of adoptive parents.” OMG
Okay, PART THREE is generally amazing. (I read a lot of post-apocalyptic / dystopia books. This is fascinating.)

Overall, FIVE STARS
obviously very thought-provoking
&
I might want to read everything he’s ever written
(that’s been translated into English...).

Hm. High on the "What If" factor, for sure.
But I'm not sure I understand what MOW45 is doing. Why won't most babies be born traditionally?

Good question. Revisiting...
MOW45 does refer to "the great reproductive decline" and gives some examples: "Many parts of the world have relapsed into tribalism, where humans who still have functional reproductive systems are kept in captivity like livestock."
So by this speculative 2038 something has caused MASSIVE infertility around the world. In that case, technological means of reproducing would be imperative to keep humanity from impending extinction.
I'm guessing without that infertility crisis, neohumans would be unnecessary, & no one would invest in the research/technology to create them.
I do appreciate the technological solution. WAY better than the (too many) postapocalypse books wherein [primarily] the women get stuck in breeding farms.

Huh. I guess I need this to be drawn out to be a longer story. Your explanation is good, but I'm still more confused than I like to be. Also I got stuck on the KO story. What a tear-jerker! And well-done, believable, too.

I getcha: confusion after finishing a read is (usually) not a comfortable feeling!

Have you read anything else of Chen Qiufan's? Last year I gave 4 stars to his stories "The Fish of Lijiang" & "The Year of the Rat" from Ken Liu's translation/anthology Invisible Planets: Contemporary Chinese Science Fiction in Translation. I'll read Waste Tide for a July IRL bookclub.

Joelle, I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Almost every passage in the story presents an opportunity to ponder.

I was especially stunned with this: "At first we thought our biggest obstacle would be the technology. Now we’ve realized that our biggest obstacle is other people." It is and always be the case. What deters progress is the people, and their impact to each other.

this part:
“Each individual will have the freedom to determine their own sex. Or they may be entirely sexless.” It is beyond cool.

And this one: "The new humans will no longer bear the responsibility for propagating their own genes. "

Yes, please! The story is rather timely since I just read Theory of Bastards, in which one of the basic premise is that our action women are determined by our desire to reproduce and that affects us when we select men. This is research based but I keep thinking how we could have more agency in choosing whichever way we want, regardless whether we want to reproduce or not. We keep evolving and it is time to free ourselves from our DNA-based urges and whatnots, as we please.

Artificial wombs are indeed not new in SF. Here's an article that discusses the topic, pretty interesting: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/buckl...

Joelle wrote: "I getcha: confusion after finishing a read is (usually) not a comfortable feeling!

Have you read anything else of Chen Qiufan's? Last year I gave 4 stars to his stories "The Fish..."

His stories in Broken Stars: Contemporary Chinese Science Fiction in Translation are also good.

I am thinking of getting Waste Tide too when it's on sale again.

Cheryl wrote: "Huh. I guess I need this to be drawn out to be a longer story. Your explanation is good, but I'm still more confused than I like to be. Also I got stuck on the KO story. What a tear-jerker! And wel..."

IKR?! KO's story gives me all the feels.

MOW45 acknowledged the current situation had been too dire but I wonder whether they also thought about the effect of overpopulation. Surely the loss of fertility might have positive impact since our planet could not longer hold the burden?

It's not that I am totally against reproduction, but at least providing options that expands beyond sex would be much preferable.

Silvana wrote: " Artificial wombs are indeed not new in SF. Here's an article that discusses the topic, pretty interesting: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/buckl...

."

I haven't read the article (just on a fly by to work), but I'm reading the Vorkosigan saga at the moment (first book 1986) and there artificial wombs are the default way in one of the future societies. The mc is constantly wondering why others don't use the same system.

From personal experience (1 successful pregnancy, 1 pregnancy loss and 1 case of emergency caesarian cause of life threatening situation) I can see why societies would meander towards artificial devices, but I wouldn't want to swap my personal experiences and feelings during pregnancy for anything.

Gabi wrote: "Silvana wrote: " Artificial wombs are indeed not new in SF. Here's an article that discusses the topic, pretty interesting: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/buckl...

."

I haven't read the article ..."

Was that Cordelia's people that used artificial womb?

Totally understand, Gabi, to each their own ;)

@Silvana: yes, it is Cordelia's people.

@Joelle: just read your impressions and loved them!

Speaking of KO's story in the story, it was mentioned that it was criticized by women's right movement. I wonder why. Isn't it good if men also bear the burden from pregnancy, delivery, then taking care of the babies? If child caring is for both, why pregnancy has to be exclusively for women? If men want to do it, knowing the risks, so be it.

Silvana wrote: "...why pregnancy has to be exclusively for women? If men want to do it, knowing the risks, so be it."

Yeah when he was all "there are an infinite number of ways that I could have died during this process" I was like: yup, that's pregnancy/childbirth, since forever!

I believe many women felt that KO was mocking them. Remember, he was a an artist, and this pregnancy was conceived (no pun intended) as a sort of performance piece. It wasn't meant to further the cause of science, or of equity.

And some women, perhaps the more traditionalist, probably felt like he was co-opting what makes Motherhood the special province of Women.

Btw, I believe that the biosphere, including humankind, would be a lot happier & healthier if there were a lot fewer humans. And I see many young people agreeing with me. I wound up with three sons, and I'm pretty sure I'll never get any grandchildren; they just like their independence too much for that.

With less encouragement from the churches to Go forth and multiply, with increased access to birth control, with more labor saving technology and better health care, with less expectation from family & community,, fewer people are having babies, and those that do are having smaller family. Didn't I read that Japan and Europe are having negative population growth? If all the native oldsters want caregivers they better start welcoming immigrants!

Sorry, not the place for such a divergent discussion. But that's what I mean about the story. I needed more. What about different approaches in other parts of the world?

That's a good explanation on KO, Cheryl, thanks.

Yep in most of the developed countries nowadays the drive to have kids is really low so they give subsidies for anyone who are willing to have babies like in Japan.

My country won't be following their steps since even with the rising urbanization, cost of living, working moms and increase of marital age since our society sees children as a woman's biggest achievement and worth, after getting a husband. Therefore, any of the tech in this story will not get any traction/support and those who want to have it need to go to other countries.