Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

James wrote: "Elon Musk, DeepMind founders, and others sign pledge to not develop lethal AI weapon systems https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17......"

What people pledge to do and what they actually do, are two different things.

AI can deliver 'faster better cheaper' cybersecurity https://www.zdnet.com/article/ai-can-...
In cybersecurity as elsewhere, artificial intelligence presents 'spectacular' opportunities. But can it be trusted yet? And who's thinking about ethics and human rights?

Iain wrote: ""But favourable to who or whom?..."

You'd know more than me, mate.
It seems AI can go either way...Either a utopian tech or a dystopian one, depending...Maybe we need an AI to oversee the AI!

Why human-AI collaboration will dominate the future of work https://www.techrepublic.com/article/...
At the 2018 MIT Sloan CIO Summit, a panel of AI experts discussed how machine learning will impact the workforce.

Yes, good reading between the lines, Iain. Co-bot can simply become bot at any time and the human's other work could literally be finding other work at another company...

There's a simple solution to the problem of jobs being lost, and that is a universal payment to everyone which will allow a basic existence.
Impossible people will say! But clearly, it would also need for people to do to other kinds of work, artistic, creative, social etc. so that they could earn extra money, doing what they like and love, and ensuring our educational system develops people to do this.
Part of the rewards of automation can then be used to pay the universal basic wage and people who wish to work in those intellectual corporate jobs can then work in a less pressurised environment.
This has to happen if social chaos is to be avoided.
Unfortunately, the system we have in place is self-destructive and I don't see anyone or any government able to influence it to bring about this obvious and positive change which would indeed bring about a massive positive increase in human existence.

There is plenty of money to implement this. Firstly, do away with all the bureaucracy that administers our complex benefits system. Reduce the vast military budget that could be reduced by mutual negotiations, as was the case before the dismantling of the Russian state. (one of the really irritating things to me, is the refusal of the USA to negotiate the limitation of the arms escalation with other countries, because their economy is fueled by the military/industrial/pharmaceutical industry which actually siphons money out of the world economy with little benefit to the average person ... which I'm sure you are only too familiar with.)
The vast amounts of money that is earned by the 1% and the global industries would more than adequately fund the universal wage, and don't forget, I'm not saying that this would be a good life. It would be a basic existence. But people would earn their living by following their passion as artists, coaches, therapists, alternative health providers etc that would enable vast numbers of people to work at what they are good at and love doing as opposed to doing the mind-numbing boring jobs that most people are trapped into today.
As Kahil Gibran says in his poetry, work is love made manifest, but that is not the situation for many today.
In fact in the "casual" economy, this is already happening, with barter and under the counter payments being made for people in that "economy".
So it's only a natural shift but with the vastly bloated corporate sector being brought under control.
And I'm not a socialist, far from it, I believe people should earn their money, but it is unsustainable for 25% of the population to have money to "waste" whilst the others slave away at soul-destroying jobs.
In fact, from my experience, even the middle-level corporate jobs are far from satisfying, only being populated by younger people who get false promises about their future and so they continue to submit to overwork and relationship destroying patterns of work because of false ideas about a career!
Our system is failing, it's getting worse and worse year by year, only those who live with their heads in the sand don't see it. Or believe in the false idea of a "utopia" that will be brought about by technology that will only support the privileged and destroy all the other jobs.
But that's a good thing in my view, we will have to change, whether it takes civilisation to be brought to its knees to begin again or whether enough people will demand the change, somewhat selflessly, we have yet to see.
Unfortunately my current bet is on the former.

Sorry but I definitely don't agree with you about Putin, if you look at the late 80s and 90s, in particular, the US felt because they'd crippled the Russian economy, that they could ignore the Soviets and refused to collaborate and negotiate arms limitation which had worked well up until the fall of the USSR.
(If you read about how the US crippled the USSR economy by privatising the state companies and how they destroyed the economy, you'll understand my strong dislike of the propaganda against Russia orchestrated by the West for the purposes of keeping up the global arms industry. Make no mistake, I'm not a Russian sympathiser but I really hate the propaganda machine that runs our so-called free press, when actually its run by the 1% and by the acquiescence of the majority of people who can't be bothered to read the "fake" news, which is actually telling a lot of truth. ie 9/11 etc.)
From what I read it's the US which is the major aggressor and which we have to be very wary of.
When you see how many global companies are controlled by the US and how their people have the run of the globe, having expats in just about every major industry in most of the world, it's no wonder they want to control us.
That is why I don't expect things to change and why we have to go down the route of global economic destruction before things right the imbalance.
Of course, it's possible that we may even face extinction, but I believe that "God" or the universal spiritual power that created everything will put a spanner in the Globalist's works, which is where Trump comes in.
No, I don't believe he's a particularly good guy, he's a disrupter, like Kali, brought in by fate to upset the apple cart. and doing a good job too.
Soros and many of the 1% openly admit "God put a spanner in the works" and that they have had to change their strategy.
If they don't and maybe it'll happen anyway, the world is going to experience catastrophic earthquakes, natural disasters etc because of one key factor that can be read from the ancients, that human energy affects the earth to a much greater extent that the materialists realise.
The shamans, the ancients, the wizards and all sorts of other people who connect with the energies of Gaia know that it's our maturity of thought and love that creates the global climate. Not the C02 story so much as the more subtle energies of greed and selfishness.
And this is not "unscientific" except as explained by Sheldrake in that materialistic science has failed to realise that mental energy does create fields of such a nature that affects the magnetic and other more subtle fields that the dum headed scientists won't look for.
As all the mystics have always taught, man(woman) is actually created in the "image of God" which translated means we have the power to create reality at a level that would startle most people, but that anyone who is prepared to openmindedly study and practice can confirm.
Hence my suggestion that our civilisation is perfectly able to create abundance and provide all of us with the opportunity to work at what we are most gifted to do if the system is changed to one more ethically orientated to one which simply rewards the effort of any sort, instead of our current highly biased economy.

Global war is no longer about physical armaments but more about electronics and psychological warfare. Just read a very interesting article on how the US attempts to combine all aspects of managing control of the globe, particularly managing access to areas before any military interventions are needed. ie the South China Sea. And why single out Putin for Oligarchs? the US is the home of Oligarchs!
But what about the other more "unusual" aspects that I mentioned? What's your opinion on those, the Russian aspect was more an aside?

I think my main point and my focus in the discussions on these pages, including the others I contribute is about how with an understanding of the other realms of existence from reading many books on the spiritual, esoteric and religious, we just don't step back and focus enough on the impact, our ways of thinking have on what is created in the physical world.
So back to my first submission which was more about the practical possibilities of a sustainable abundant lifestyle for all of humanity, applying reasonable workable and fair systems of organisation.
Capitalism, Communism, Socialism etc have all failed.
Where are the thinkers who are prepared to look creatively at new ways of us living?

Thanks for this Iain
The amount of amazing work by such authors as Robert Monroe, who developed the tools of combining right and left brain hemi-synch music designed to expand consciousness, also wrote three books on travels out of the body in a very scientific way.
There is considerable Western research that is highly specific and detailed as well as the age-old Eastern concepts and experiments.
It's a tragedy that these detailed descriptions are not widely known which would challenge current mono-material thinking.
I'm very fortunate to have found these which have appeased my need for logical thought into areas that I haven't the natural talent to visit such as those open to Monroe for example.

Well, picking up on what Glen is implying, could AI somehow help people become more creative either directly (by human-AI collaborations) or indirectly (by freeing people up)?

What are the potential positives of AI? And in listing all the valid concerns, are we also potentially overlooking a golden opportunity with AI for humanity to somehow go to the next level and even eradicate extreme poverty? (I guess I'm talking best case scenarios here if we manage AI properly and protect humans in every way from the negative issues that could crop up).

Well we already have the case of cars using AI crashes and the manufacturers denying responsibility.
Can you imagine a future where pilotless planes hijack themselves and land in the wrong countries 😀

Iain wrote: "The Defense Department using A.I. to catch out A.I.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/61..."

Man! This is getting to be a "tangled web"...literally!

Glen wrote: "Sorry but I definitely don't agree with you about Putin, if you look at the late 80s and 90s, in particular, the US felt because they'd crippled the Russian economy, that they could ignore the Sovi..."

I totally agree with you. I'm a citizen of the US and I am appalled by the number of voices here screaming about alleged Russian meddling in American politics without knowing or caring about the vastly more destructive American meddling in politics all over the rest of the world on behalf of corporate interests. And the poverty in South America that represents a major threat to the irreplacable treasure of the rainforest - how much are we investing in fixing that compared to the military budget? And so many people in this country either don't know or don't care about all the military assistance that the fundamentalists in Afghanistan were getting from the CIA from the 1970s through to 2001, the violation of the treaty promises not to expand NATO in to the east block (on Bill Clinton's watch), the American meddling in Ukrainian politics that assisted the overthrow of an elected regime to be replaced by a military junta (which prompted the Russian grab of Crimea since that was populated by Russian speaking people who wanted no part of that change, which quite ironically prompted Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden to compare Putin to Hitler, etc.) I'm not a fan of Trump and I don't approve of plenty of things happening inside Russia, but with those things in mind it's not exactly the biggest surprise in the world if Putin seemed to have some preference for a Trump victory in that election with the more isolationist ideas that Trump appeared to have. I'm convinced that in some circles Trump is very unpopular, not because he's an incompetent idiot (we've had those before), but because he's a loose cannon who can't be easily controlled by those who are used to controlling politicians easily. And Putin remains very unpopular, not because of human rights violations in Russia (how does Russia compare to Saudi Arabia on that score?) but more because he's the only prominent world leader who dares to speak the truth about a lot of American foreign policy.

Well said, and when you see Alex Jone's "Prison Planet" being banned, it shows how much the media don't want the general public to think about other versions of what's going on.
(Doesn't matter whether Jones was right or not!)
I personally have experienced the hate that the establishment can bring to bear on those who dare to challenge the official narrative.
I was active in UKIP that challenged Cameron's government here in the UK. One day in Glastonbury where we were merely standing and answering questions about our ideas, two people almost assaulted us without any logic, just calling us names etc.
I accidentally then saw them drawing money from an ATM and saying they were paid for what they did.
People don't realise how vicious a government can be about suppressing opinion that disagrees with the party line, although I agree that Trump is good from the point of view you state!

But The West started it
Just like in Syria where meddling in the situation began the mess we now have
However, it’s not a question of which “side” is wrong or right but looking at who’s manipulating the narrative

Of course, but how do we get the average person to understand they are being fed a narrative? If we fail to get people to look deeper into situations, then democracy will fail because of the current ability of the media to propagandise reality to what they want the public to believe and therefore to vote for or against.
Even worse is they are able to divide the people so that they expend all their energy on each other instead of finding out what's happening and kicking out the rascals who are doing it to us!

Your comment about the younger people is what concerns me most perhaps, one can see a civilisation where the population (much reduced by various covert means), is manipulated and controlled. many of my age - partly retired, seem to be more interested in these matters.
My children (30's & the 40's) and their friends are totally disinterested in my views, although I don't raise them that much because they just dismiss them as my being an oldie!
And the grandchildren are so caught up in the media frenzy of Stars and computer games, they don't even see the viewpoint.
Interesting that Brexit is supported much more by the elder generation who remember the second world war and the sacrifices made by so many to avoid what we now have: the EU ruled by Germany more or less (with French collusion)
As posted elsewhere, it seems there is no stopping the "1%" except for external, or unforeseen events.
My belief is that the 1% will triumph but that it will be unsustainable for reasons they haven't anticipated.

Yes, 1% is a generalisation, I don't think it's lazy though, and money is a pretty good catch-all, in fact, it clearly defined the people who are involved as much as is possible. If I knew exactly who they are, I'd either not be writing this or dead! :-)
Many names are bandied about, it's a good guess that those with money are either responsible or supporting the strategies.
Of course, they are influencing and employing the think tanks, the politicians, the corporate executives who are part of the process etc, but ultimately surely it comes down to the ability to buy allegiance. Since money is such a powerful resource today, I think it's not an unlikely assumption that the super rich and that means the 1% who own the most wealth are the main instigators of the strategies.
I also think it's a common practice for those who support them to use blackmail to manage those who'd like to get out of the position they may disagree with but can't because of the "dirt" that is held over them.
Paedophilia in the British establishment is probably so endemic that the government would be brought down overnight if the truth came out. And this has been so evident by all the attempts to launch effective investigations that fail every time to get anywhere. David Icke is right about a lot of things.
We have a disguised dictatorship now. And yes, that's exactly my point, it is here and it will last a long time, but maybe not so long as expected given the powerful digital tools they have. However, they also are vulnerable because of the instability of those digital systems, due to hacking, disruption from global natural events etc.
Centralised power has its Achilles heel.
I have no hesitation in declaring my position. I believe in a spiritual background to our dimension that goes far above what most people conceive of. I believe there is a plan, and that current events are in accordance with that plan and that the 1% (sorry but that's the easiest shorthand for this motley group) to some extent understand and work with that plan, but that they lack the deeper understanding of the spiritual power that maintains the balance of control globally and of course in our universe.
The God of Justice ensures this dimension will not become a place that souls will refuse to come to otherwise the process is untenable.
Of course, there is a higher court than that of Justice and that is the final arbitrator of what will occur.
The ancient wisdom and the lost understanding that goes back hundreds of thousands of years, puts the current events into perspective.
My concern is merely that humanity could avoid much of the current and forthcoming pain by taking responsibility for what is being done to them, instead of allowing the manipulation that is being vested upon them by those who partly understand the bigger picture but do not have the best interests of humanity at heart.
This is a fascinating subject for me, a considerable amount of science fiction and novels at some level are in touch with these ideas and so much is being uncovered of the deeper knowledge that our forefathers had at their fingertips.
The whole question of other intelligences being around us and here has been so clearly demonstrated by many reliable sources.
The whole manipulation of the US population by the enactment of 9/11 and also in the UK of the 7/7 interventions demonstrate the power and ability of those 1% to totally control the narrative and the global political landscape. Calling these conspiracies is another way of confusing the average person who has no idea of engineering practice or even has considered the impossibility of those events being carried out by "terrorists". 9/11 was a masterpiece of demolition and coverup. The control of the media and the narrative has been so complete that even relatively sensible people have been hoodwinked into a hypnotic state over their perceptions of clear acts of professionals.
I don't intend to justify my point of view because there is so much evidence available on those issues and my spiritual viewpoint is based on extensive study of new scientific observations, ancient eastern texts, modern psychological research etc. Plus so many investigators of the presence of "aliens" actively involved here.
There is at the moment so much information on YouTube etc that one can investigate, and I believe this hasn't yet been censored because so many people have been persuaded only "Quacks" believe it.
But the time is close when the Quacks will become substantial numbers and the brainwashing will really kick in to subvert the truth, plus much more censorship of those information streams.
My interest is to find people who see the bigger picture, and by bigger, I mean vastly bigger than most people even dream about. And to take these truths as given not to argue about them but to look for how to change reality at that level.
Are you one of them or does the minutiae of the situation fascinate you more? This is not said in a superior or patriarchal way, it is everyone's choice what they wish to focus on. I just find it so incredible that currently, any individual who chooses to find out the "truth" of what is really going on, can find it out and become aware of how amazing events are.
Goodreads has so many amazing books being discussed and that's what I enjoy about this website, that something one hadn't considered previously, is brought to my attention.
This is probably my last post as I'm pretty sure many people will want to argue about the minutiae and not the bigger picture.
If you are interested in the bigger picture, I'd love to chat however. [email protected]

As for election hacking, apparently RT (yes, I know - a "non-approved source") found a group of US hackers and asked them to try and hack various US voting sites in preparation for the mid-term elections. It took an 11 year old girl, who was most definitely American from her accent, about 11 minutes to get in. Assuming this is not a complete fabrication it would seem to me that rather than whinge about Russians, they could do more to make their system secure. It there goal were to save money when installing this system, then they may be paying the price. Any skilled hacker could seemingly do whatever.

Talk again one day, but thanks for the fun!

Iain wrote: "A general look at the coming impact of Virtual Reality on society across the board, and the pros and cons of VR itself by Prof. Jeremy Bailenson who recently wrote a book on the topic titled: "Expe..."

Interesting that that professor says it's the most psychological powerful medium in history...

Life 3.0: Being Human in the Age of Artificial Intelligence

It's not necessarily a given that Immortal Robot Dictators would be any worse than what we have in power now...

Iain wrote: "I'd sooner take my chances with the robot. ..."

That's what I'm wondering too, mate...Maybe we shouldn't discount how helpful robots can be...Not sure about making 'em our leaders, but if that happens at least each robot wouldn't have ego, I assume...So that'd be one great positive...

Still on topic!

You can soon buy a sex robot equipped with artificial intelligence for about $20,000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cN8s...

Jesus, the founder of that AI doll factory looks like a robot himself!

This is actually one of the scarier sides to AI and robotics in my opinion...As I sense (or guess) this could easily create sociopathic-like behaviour, especially as people go between "relationships" with AI robot partners and real relationships with other humans...A bit like that Bruce Willis movie VICE (crap film, but interesting themes showing humans will go to brothels full of these AI sex dolls where they can do whatever the want with no consequences).

Iain wrote: "Out of curiosity, is it the Aussie Jesus?"

No, but I wish that Aussie Jesus was an AI robot as then he could be reprogrammed...But instead he's still out there in the Outback/Bush programming the minds of more of his followers...

Iain wrote: "Think that will work for slander, defamation, gas-lighting, rumours, gossip that ruins families, careers and the reputation of individuals and all the rest?..."

Yeah, so long as it doesn't somehow filter out, or especially not CENSOR, fair comments that simply show a bit of attitude (e.g. sarcasm) but aren't actually cyber bullying.

What the hell are you implying about me, Iain?!

In fact, this seems like cyber bullying...

Watch out! I'm coming for you!

But seriously, I get you now and agree there are extreme cases of cyber stalking with insane trolls... In those cases it could be interesting to see how AI could assist.

James and Ian,

Bored out of my mind in rural UK,
Fed up with watching the swans swim past the window on the river.
My CV seems to have "Problem Solver, Removals Contractor, and various other skills!!

You guys need a hand, just shout!!!
LOL!!!

John wrote: "James and Ian,

Bored out of my mind in rural UK,
Fed up with watching the swans swim past the window on the river.
My CV seems to have "Problem Solver, Removals Contractor, and various other skill..."

You an do a lot of things, Start Coding, Start running along the river, Get a pet cat and teach it to chase the swans and have fun watching the cat go crazy, take a swim with the swans, do a google search for people with boats, canoes, and who like paddling, it is your responsibility to make your life interesting, you can't expect life to happen to you without you "putting" some effort and planning. SERENDIPITY, does not happen to you, you must plan for accidents, if you stay at the comfort of your home, waiting for sweet accidents to happen and memories to be created, you will be disappointed, instead do research about all the acitivies that you can do, to put yourself in "SERENDIPITY", you need to plan for happiness!

John wrote: "James and Ian,

Bored out of my mind in rural UK,
Fed up with watching the swans swim past the window on the river.
My CV seems to have "Problem Solver, Removals Contractor, and various other skill..."


John - Just a suggestion...

As "Removals Contractor" is one of your skills perhaps you could start by removing those pesky swans swimming past your window? That would free you up to apply your other skills.

P.S. How could I acquire a CV like yours? Only reason I ask is I'm fed up watching the kiwis waddle past my window here in Papamoa.

Lance wrote: "John wrote: "James and Ian,

Bored out of my mind in rural UK,
Fed up with watching the swans swim past the window on the river.
My CV seems to have "Problem Solver, Removals Contractor, and variou..."

Hi Lance,
To get a CV like mine is simple,
Join the army, Parachute Regiment underage by adding a year or so to your birth certificate, easy to do in the early 60's with the hand written birth certs in UK and HM's need for lots of young idiots to go and protect GB colonies around the world, move on to Spec Ops, then strange CT work, then across the pond to Ollie the North, then DEA, then SA DSO, then freelance it!
However, having never seen a Kiwi up close, unless you call New Zealand SF guys in Borneo, Kiwi's, can't really help you with that problem!!
Regarding the swans, they all belong to the Queen, believe it or not and as such are protected!! So advisable to simply feed them!!
LOL¬

John wrote: "Lance wrote: "John wrote: "James and Ian,

Bored out of my mind in rural UK,
Fed up with watching the swans swim past the window on the river.
My CV seems to have "Problem Solver, Removals Contract..."


Sounds easy... Sign me up!

P.S. the kiwis I referred to are the bird variety, which are also protected. Not sure the Queen has any claim over them.

A.I. perfectly predicted last year’s Super Bowl score. What happens to betting? https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-te...

The deep-learning revolution: How understanding the brain will let us supercharge AI https://www.techrepublic.com/article/...

How AI systems beat Vegas oddsmakers in sports forecasting accuracy https://www.techrepublic.com/article/...

THE “ART” OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE https://gizadeathstar.com/2018/09/the...

Robotics & AI https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2...

Byron Reese is the CEO and publisher of the technology research company Gigaom. In the first half, he discussed how we are approaching a great turning point in history when AI and robotics will redefine what it means to be human. Concern about robots taking over many of our jobs is actually misplaced, he said, as they are not ideal for most kinds of work. Instead, robots are best suited to tasks that increase our productivity, and we are all better off for it, he remarked. And even though a lot of factory work has become automated, we haven't seen the unemployment rates drop, Reese cited.

There are positive and negative aspects to artificial intelligence. Data collection and machine learning have made tasks possible that couldn't have been done in the past. While this is good news for collecting data that helps identify cancer, said Reese, AI can also be used in ways that are invasive to privacy such as tracking people and making transcripts of their phone calls. Combat increasingly using drones and not risking the lives of soldiers may "lower the political cost of war," which is not necessarily a good thing, Reese admits, though he is generally bullish on the prospects of what he calls the "fourth age" as robotics and AI reach their ascendancy. He foresees the end of all "technical" problems, including disease and hunger around the world.

AI, like all technology, is just a tool. It's a hammer. You can use it to build a house. You can use it to kill somebody. It's up to us.

Best-selling author and former Harvard University instructor Michael Guillen joined guest host Ian Punnettto discuss how our lives will be changed by scientists pushing the frontiers of science. "We are at this threshold of creating for ourselves a world that can either be grim or great," Guillen said, pointing out spirituality can help steer us in the right direction. He warned of the possibility of doing in humanity in pursuit of improving the human condition through artificial intelligence, robotics, and genetic engineering.

According to Guillen, work in the field of genetic engineering, including resurrecting extinct species, defies the natural order of things as it elevates recessive traits over dominant traits. Humanity may pay a price for flying in the face of evolutionary forces, he advised. Guillen contemplated a world where neural nets allow people to surf the internet with thoughts alone, and how such technology could lead to a kind of immortality. "Once you have that neural net, you have a mechanism by which you can transfer... our thoughts on to a supercomputer," he revealed, noting quantum computers will help facilitate this process.

"If we continue in the trajectory we're now on, it is inevitable the one day... robots powered by artificial intelligence will become so much more intelligent than we that they really reach the level of deity," Guillen continued. He cautioned about the development of robotic soldiers and The Terminator conundrum (giving robots complete autonomy) now faced by many nations. Guillen also reported on doctors who are planning to detach the head of a man from his crippled body to stitch it onto a healthy new donated one, as well as the potential benefits of transhuman augmentation and neural prostheses that can be moved with thoughts.

The remainder of the program featured Open Lines.

WEBSITE(S):
michaelguillen.com

The 4 biggest reasons people are creeped out by AI https://www.techrepublic.com/article/...
As AI becomes more life-like, humans are growing scared of its capabilities and knowledge. Here are the four ways AI creeps people out.

Killer robots': AI experts call for boycott over lab at South Korea university https://www.theguardian.com/technolog...
Academics around the world voice ‘huge concern’ over KAIST’s collaboration with defence company on autonomous weapons

Excerpt from above article:

Artificial intelligence researchers from nearly 30 countries are boycotting a South Korean university over concerns a new lab in partnership with a leading defence company could lead to “killer robots”.

Russian Weapons Maker To Build AI-Directed Guns https://www.defenseone.com/technology...

Microsoft to tackle AI skills shortage with two new training programs https://www.zdnet.com/article/microso...
The tech giant reveals two new training programs to boost AI-related skills in business and in universities.

I ran across a good joke recently.

What's the difference between AI and ML?

It's AI when you're trying to secure funding and ML when you're hiring developers.