Classics and the Western Canon discussion
This topic is about
The Sound and the Fury
Faulkner, The Sound and the Fury
>
Weeks 3 & 4: The Quentin Section
What details emerge about Caddy in this section? Are the expectations placed on her by her brothers unrealistic? Unfair?
Quentin befriends a little Italian girl who follows him. He calls her “sister.” Her brother chases after him because he suspects Quentin intends to molest her. What is the significance of this episode? Does it have any bearing on Quentin’s thinking?
Cphe wrote: "In some ways I think he superimposed the little girl with Caddy of childhood.....but I may be wrong."That's how I see it, as well, Cphe.
I think there may also be a contrast set up between the way the little girl's brother confronts Quentin and the way Quentin reacts when he confronts Dalton Ames.
Tamara wrote: "Cphe wrote: "In some ways I think he superimposed the little girl with Caddy of childhood.....but I may be wrong."That's how I see it, as well, Cphe.
I think there may also be a contrast set up ..."
I was thinking the same thing. Also the Italian brother kind of succeeds: Quentin ends up being punished for whatever he's accused of. All Quentins confrontations on the other end, end with him being beaten up
Tamara wrote: "a pivotal conversation he has with his father in which he falsely claims to have committed incest..."Tamara, thank you for clarifying about this. On a first reading I wondered with horror if Quentin the niece was the offspring of Quentin and his sister. Then it became clear that (most likely) Dalton Ames was the father.
But I still wondered how literally we should take his confession of "incest." Did they kiss? Did he merely desire her? Or was it simply that he felt guilty and ashamed of his excessive, jealous love for Caddy and thus falsely accused himself?
When he said "father" I have committed incest, at first I thought he was confessing to a priest. Then it became clear he was remembering conversations with his father.
Marieke wrote: "I was thinking the same thing. Also the Italian brother kind of succeeds: Quentin ends up being punished for whatever he's accused of. All Quentins confrontations on the other end, end with him being beaten up.."Quentin tries to act tough when he confronts Dalton. He threatens to kill Dalton if he doesn’t leave town before sundown. Dalton isn't scared. Quentin then tries to hit Dalton, but Dalton catches his hand. He tries again. And then we get this:
. . . I still tried then it was like I was looking at him through a piece of coloured glass I could hear my blood and then I could see the sky again and branches against it and the sun slanting through them and he holding me on my feet
Although Dalton claims he hit Quentin, he actually hadn’t:
I knew that he hadn’t hit me that he had lied about that for her sake too and that I had just passed out like a girl . . .
Quentin has fainted. He is incapable of acting with the force of the little girl’s brother.
It’s ironic that Quentin who claims he has committed incest with Caddy and tries to convince her and his father they did so is accused of molesting a little girl and is attacked by her brother.
Ignacio wrote: "But I still wondered how literally we should take his confession of "incest." Did they kiss? Did he merely desire her? Or was it simply that he felt guilty and ashamed of his excessive, jealous love for Caddy and thus falsely accused himself?.."An excerpt of the conversation he has with his father about his false claim of incest:
i wasnt lying i wasnt lying and he you wanted to sublimate a piece of natural human folly into a horror and then exorcise it with truth and i it was to isolate her out of the loud world so that it would have to flee us of necessity and then the sound of it would be as though it had never been and he did you try to make her do it and i i was afraid to i was afraid she might and then it wouldnt have done any good but if i could tell you we did it would have been so and then the others wouldnt be so and then the world would roar away
It looks to me as if he wants to claim he has committed incest so that the horror of it would somehow isolate himself and Caddy from the rest of the world. He seems to think that Caddy having sex with him is, somehow, preferable to her having sex with an outsider. (Go figure!) But at the same time he never tries to have sex with her because, as he confides to his father, "I was afraid she might."
What it amounts to is Quentin simply cannot accept Caddy is a sexual being because it conflicts with his concept of southern womanhood, purity, and honor.
Thems my thoughts. Any other possible readings?
While I still can’t agree that incest is better than promiscuity, I think Quentin’s claims to his father are simply meant to shield Caddy from responsibility. However, there’s also strong evidence that for Caddy, being caught is the point. Caddy’s sexual dalliance with Dalton Ames is about her rejection of society through consciously violating its rules for her.Among other indications of Caddy’s willingness to do anything subversive is the following scene where Quentin remembers confronting Caddy about her loss of virginity. Quentin suggests a double suicide pact with Caddy, who needs no convincing:
“I held the point of the knife at her throat
it wont take but a second just a second then I can do
mine I can do mine then
all right can you do yours by yourself
yes the blades long enough Benjys in bed by now
yes
it wont take but a second Ill try not to hurt
all right
will you close your eyes
no like this youll have to push it harder
touch your hand to it
but she didnt move her eyes were wide open looking past
my head at the sky
Caddy do you remember how Dilsey fussed at you because your drawers were muddy
dont cry
Im not crying Caddy
push it are you going to
do you want me to
yes push it
touch your hand to it
dont cry poor Quentin
but I couldnt stop she held my head against her damp hard breast I could hear her heart going firm and slow now not hammering and the water gurgling among the willows in the dark and waves of honeysuckle coming up the air my arm and shoulder were twisted under me”
Note: This is also the scene that causes Quentin to have such a negative reaction to the scent of honeysuckle.
I’ve been studying Ancient Greek lit since the beginning of the year and noticed a couple references in the Quentin section that I wanted to mention.The first is the “swine of Euboeleus” which is mentioned in a fragment of thought and again toward the end with the imagery of swine running by twos into the sea. Greek mythology says this of the swineherd:
“Eubuleus, a swineherd, had been out in the fields, feeding their beasts, when the earth suddenly gaped open, engulfing Eubuleus’s swine before his very eyes; then, with a heavy thud of hooves, a chariot drawn by black horses appeared, and dashed down the chasm. The chariot-driver’s face was invisible, but his right arm was tightly clasped around a shrieking girl.”
Excerpt From
The Greek Myths
Robert Graves
The swine fell into the chasm in the earth through which Hades, Lord of the Underworld, kidnapped the goddess Kore aka Persephone (the shrieking girl), beautiful daughter of the fertility and grain goddess Demeter often associated with “ripeness”, so that he can make her his queen.
Any thoughts on why Quentin references the myth and how it applies to TSATF?
Aiden wrote: "While I still can’t agree that incest is better than promiscuity, I should jolly well hope not :)
Aiden wrote: I think Quentin’s claims to his father are simply meant to shield Caddy from responsibility.
Good point.
Aiden wrote: "However, there’s also strong evidence that for Caddy, being caught is the point. Caddy’s sexual dalliance with Dalton Ames is about her rejection of society through consciously violating its rules for her."
I’m not sure I agree with that. I think she genuinely cares for Dalton Ames but gives him up to appease Quentin.
do you love him her hand came out I didnt move it fumbled down my arm and she held my hand flat against her chest her heart thudding no no did he make you then he made you do it let him he was stronger than you and he tomorrow Ill kill him I swear I will . . . Caddy you hate him dont you dont you she held my hand against her chest her heart thudding I turned and caught her arm Caddy you hate him dont you she moved my hand up against her throat her heart was hammering there poor Quentin . . . yes I hate him I would die for him Ive already died for him I die for him over and over again
It seems to me as if Caddy gives up on herself after she breaks off with Dalton Ames. She becomes promiscuous. She sacrifices her happiness for her family by marrying a man she doesn't love to shield them from the scandal of her pregnancy. Dalton is presumed to be the father.
Have there been very many Caddy I dont know too many will you look after Benjy and Father You dont know whose it is then does he know Dont touch me will you look after Benjy and Father
There are so many echoes of the Benjy section throughout. Here's an example from the Benjy section:
We could hear Caddy walking fast. Father and Mother looked at the door. Caddy passed it walking fast. She didn't look. She walked fast.
"Candace," Mother said. Caddy stopped walking.
"Yes, Mother," she said.
"Hush, Caroline," Father said.
"Come here," Mother said.
"Hush, Caroline, " Father said. "Let her alone."
Caddy came to the door and stood there looking at Father and Mother. Her eyes flew at me, and away. I began to cry. It went loud and I got up. Caddy came in and stood with her back to the wall, looking at me. I went towards her, crying, and she shrank against the wall and I saw her eyes and I cried louder and pulled at her dress. She put her hands out but I pulled at her dress. Her eyes ran.
This is in the Quentin section:
one minute she was standing there the next he was yelling and pulling at her dress they went into the hall and up the stairs yelling and shoving at her up the stairs to the bathroom door and stopped her back against the door and her arm across her face yelling and trying to shove her into the bathroom
Same scene from two perspectives. I think this is when Caddy loses her virginity to Dalton Ames and Benjy “senses” it in her eyes in the same way that he “sensed” something in Mrs. Patterson’s eyes when she tried to grab the letter from Uncle Maury.
Aiden wrote: "Any thoughts on why Quentin references the myth and how it applies to TSATF?."Maybe he sees himself as Hades kidnapping Persephone (Caddy) to the underworld, i.e. running away to a place where no one can find them?
Tamara wrote: "It seems to me as if Caddy gives up on herself after she breaks off with Dalton Ames. She becomes promiscuous. She sacrifices her happiness for her family by marrying a man she doesn't love to shield them from the scandal of her pregnancy. Dalton is presumed to be the father. "I think you’re looking at promiscuity through a more modern lens than Faulkner’s 1909 “Deep South” Mississippi. Benjy reacts to finding Caddy kissing on the swing with her first boyfriend, Charlie, by making Caddy go to the bathroom to wash her “sin” away. And she does wash her mouth out with soap and earnestly apologizes.
My interpretation is that Caddy is seen as promiscuous for “parking”/“necking” in the woods with a number of boys, but Dalton is the first boy she has sex with, though possibly not the last before finding out she’s pregnant.
This little side-thought of Quentin’s seems sincere to me:
“did you love them Caddy did you love them When they touched me I died”
I think she was being honest and referring to all the boys as there’s never a modifier for an exception.
She married Sydney Herbert Head who her mother found for her when she took Caddy away to French Lick (a resort out of state mentioned in talk between Caroline and Jason Sr.) so that her unwed pregnancy wouldn’t embarrass the family (mainly Caroline). But Caddy couldn’t live the lie and got divorced in less than a year.
Quentin says, "And the good St. Francis that said Little Sister Death, that never had a sister." Looking at the St. Francis story this reference might be foreshadowing:When St. Francis senses the end of his life he asks to be taken to Portiuncula to die in poverty. On the procession there he passes buildings he built during his life, recalling memories of his youth. Once installed in his simple hut he asks forgiveness and forgives others and is visited by Brother Jacoba (female). He recites his Canticle to Brother Sun and adds new verses to Sister Death. As he dies a flock of larks descend on the roof and sing as he ascends to Eternal Life.
Cphe wrote: "I took it that Herbert came to the realisation that he wasn't the father of Caddy's baby and that was the reason for the marriage breakdown - not so much that Caddy couldn't live the lie.Jason's ..."
I read it the same way you do. And Jason's treatment of Quentin (his niece) both in the Benjy section and later in his own section reflects his anger toward Caddy since he was unable to reap the benefits of her marriage to Herbert Head.
Suzann wrote: "Quentin says, "And the good St. Francis that said Little Sister Death, that never had a sister." Looking at the St. Francis story this reference might be foreshadowing:When St. Francis senses the..."
Very interesting. Quentin makes several references to birds in his section--sparrows and gulls.
Tamara wrote: "Cphe wrote: "I took it that Herbert came to the realisation that he wasn't the father of Caddy's baby and that was the reason for the marriage breakdown - not so much that Caddy couldn't live the l..."I was reading the Appendix of Compson family history that Faulkner wrote after publication and added to later editions. It doesn’t say the reason, but it does say “Divorced by him, 1911,” in Caddy’s section regarding Herbert Head, so you two may be right about the reason.
The following passage from Caddy’s section of the appendix may be useful in interpreting the Quentin Section as well:
“Loved her brother despite him, loved not only him but in him that bitter prophet and inflexible corruptless judge of what he considered the family’s honor and its doom, as he thought he loved but really hated in her what he considered the frail doomed vessel of its pride and the foul instrument of its disgrace; not only this, she loved him not only in spite of but because of the fact that he himself was incapable of love, accepting the fact that he must value above all not her but the virginity of which she was custodian and on which she placed no value whatever: the frail physical stricture which to her was no more than a hangnail would have been. Knew the brother loved death best of all and was not jealous, would (and perhaps in the calculation and deliberation of her marriage did) have handed him the hypothetical hemlock.”
Suzann wrote: "Quentin says, "And the good St. Francis that said Little Sister Death, that never had a sister." Looking at the St. Francis story this reference might be foreshadowing:When St. Francis senses the..."
Biblical imagery is definitely an important. Thanks for the bit of research. I agree that comparisons can be made between Quentin and St. Francis.
Tamara wrote: "The opening lines reveal his obsession with time. He is unable to adjust to present reality and wants to turn back to a time in the past when honor and tradition meant something. Hence his obsession with time, his shadow, clocks, and his grandfather’s watch. He wants to freeze time. The long, convoluted sentences at the end of this section are without punctuation or paragraphs to reflect his level of distress and emotional intensity..."The emotional intensity was effective for me! The pacing (clocks) gave me the heebie jeebies.
Aiden wrote: "While I still can’t agree that incest is better than promiscuity, I think Quentin’s claims to his father are simply meant to shield Caddy from responsibility."That was my impression as well.
“could just have done something so dreadful that they would have fled hell except us” For me this line shows that Quentin was trying to protect Caddy and join her in whatever punishment she may have from her sin. This line as shows that unlike what his father says about time healing all, for Quentin time does not heal all. I would say his actions at the end of his life show that he is far from healing.
Quentin also frequently refers to the location of shadows, which is another way of marking the passage of time.
Mike wrote: "This line as shows that unlike what his father says about time healing all, for Quentin time does not heal all..."I'm wondering if it's the opposite, i.e. Quentin commits suicide because he knows time will heal all. Time will heal his pain and he wants to prevent that from happening.
I'm thinking of the long, rambling conversation between Quentin and his father at the end of this section. Speaking of Caddy’s pregnancy, Quentin’s father says:
and he you wanted to sublimate a piece of natural human folly into a horror and then exorcise it with truth and i it was to isolate her out of the loud world so that it would have to flee us of necessity . . .
A few lines later, he tells Quentin:
you are not thinking of finitude you are contemplating an apotheosis in which a temporary state of mind will become symmetrical above the flesh and aware both of itself and of the flesh it will not quite discard you will not even be dead and i temporary and he you cannot bear to think that some day it will no longer hurt you like this . . .
Quentin focuses on the words “temporary state of mind.” He doesn’t want his hurt to be temporary, so he denies time the opportunity to lessen his pain. He commits suicide.
Any thoughts?
Aiden wrote: "I think you’re looking at promiscuity through a more modern lens than Faulkner’s 1909 “Deep South” Mississippi."Maybe the Deep South Mississippian woman is idealized purity on a pedestal. Perhaps no woman can fulfill the ideal. For me, Caddy's failure to meet societal expectations is not a personal failure, but a result of unrealistic societal expectations of women. The ideal and the lived life are at odds. Even Mississippi in the 90's promoted the Southern belle as an icon of the South, an icon of innocence and purity--nostalgic perhaps, but still vivid in the social imagination. But back to Caddy...she lacks a healthy role model. She's on her own transitioning to adulthood.
Not reading along, but following the conversation--read the book last year:Reading the comments, I'm thinking of the overall situation--if you take away Faulkner's language, the script here is actually kind of tawdry--Caddy causes a scandal by getting pregnant before marriage, which I have a hard time believing wasn't common enough even in Faulkner's day (though rarer than today, surely).
My stumbling block was Quentin's reaction to this--did it not seem overplayed? Why would this cause such an existential crisis in Quentin's mind? It occurs to me that Caddy's Madonna image is a crucial underpinning of Quentin's image of himself. He can only be what he pictures himself to be if everyone around him conforms to the idealized image he has of them--it underpins his conception of the entire Southern aristocracy that he thinks he belongs to. If Caddy is simply a garden-variety young woman, not only prey to the urges everyone feels but weak enough to give in to them, then Quentin can't maintain the idealized image of himself either.
It seems to me that all three Compson brothers need Caddy to be something for their own comfort or identity. She's like a linchpin. No wonder she wanted to get away.
Just some thoughts I had while reading through the thread. Thanks for those who are contributing.
Bryan "They call me the Doge" wrote: "It seems to me that all three Compson brothers need Caddy to be something for their own comfort or identity. She's like a linchpin. No wonder she wanted to get away.."Great point.
The desire of the Compson brothers to have Caddy satisfy their need for comfort or identity may have something to do with Caroline Compson's failure as a mother. Quentin says, "If I could say mother," perhaps reflecting his recognition that his mother has failed them as a parent.
Bryan "They call me the Doge" wrote: "It seems to me that all three Compson brothers need Caddy to be something for their own comfort or identity..."The virginal woman requires a protector, perhaps an equally idealized male counterpart, which Quentin has difficulty fulfilling. He asks why he isn't the "unvirgin" instead of Caddy. I agree that the male identity is tied up in the idealized female.
Cphe wrote: "Re the significance of the clocks.....Thought of time marching on "tic....tok, tic.....tok" Quentin wanting to turn back time and events being changed/ different outcomes."
Yes, I noticed this too, how well constructed the narrative is, that we can almost hear the tic-toc, the pulse, and foreshadow how Quentin will end that empty regular time of clocks.
And his father says "clocks slay time. He said time is dead as long as it is being clicked off by little wheels; only when the clock stops does time come back to life."
I can't help but like the father. I know in some ways he is probably a failure, who drank himself to death and had nothing to offer but melancholia (but he clearly loved his children). But there is something magnificent and tragic about his philosophical skepticism and dignity in defeat. He reminds me of a Shakespearean character, I don't know, maybe Richard II.
Ignacio wrote: "I can't help but like the father. I know in some ways he is probably a failure, who drank himself to death and had nothing to offer but melancholia (but he clearly loved his children). But there is something magnificent and tragic about his philosophical skepticism and dignity in defeat. He reminds me of a Shakespearean character, I don't know, maybe Richard II..."An interesting perspective. I had not thought of the father in that way.
There is something very tragic and sad about his outlook. Life is devoid of meaning for him. Nothing matters. Nothing is worth getting worked up about. He acknowledges time has control over us but argues it's futile to fight it. And so he drinks himself to death.
It is tragic. And I can see why you compare him to a Shakespearean character. But I also think there is something very wrong about imparting such a defeatist attitude to his child. Doesn't he have a responsibility to give Quentin some cause for optimism? To help him put things in a better perspective? When he shrouds Quentin with his melancholia and pessimism and proceeds to drink himself to death, what kind of example is he setting for a son he knows to be overly-sensitive? A son who takes his sister's pregnancy so seriously, he is ready to claim to be the father of her child?
Maybe it's the parent in me, but I just think it's very, very wrong to do this to your child. I understand Quentin is a grown man and is responsible for his actions. But I see him crying for help and guidance in the long conversation he has with his father. Instead of helping him, his father just adds fuel to the fire. Maybe he's incapable of doing anything else. Either way, it's tragic.
I feel sorry for both of them.
Tamara wrote: "But I also think there is something very wrong about imparting such a defeatist attitude to his child. Doesn't he have a responsibility to give Quentin some cause for optimism?..."Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Maybe he is like a Shakespearean king who abdicates/turns away from his duties, thus causing tragedy and suffering for the whole realm. Shakespeare clearly views such monarchs as immoral.
On a more concrete level, he is narcissistic: projecting his own sense of failure and skepticism onto his children, trying to infuse his pessimistic philosophy into Quentin (rather than be the parent Quentin needs). So I see what you are saying, but at the same time I find him an extremely compelling character, I'm not sure why. Maybe it's Faulkner's beautiful, pained, poetic prose.
Anybody looked up a reference for "Young Lochinvar rode out of the west a little too soon, didn't he?" There was a 1923 (after June 1910 of Quentin's section) British silent film called Young Lochinvar based on a Walter Scott poem "Marmon". A brief summary of the poem didn't mention Lochinvar. Just looking for more context on this reference.
Suzann wrote: "Anybody looked up a reference for "Young Lochinvar rode out of the west a little too soon, didn't he?" There was a 1923 (after June 1910 of Quentin's section) British silent film called Young Lochi..."It's a poem by Sir Walter Scott. I remember it because it was one of the poems we were required to memorize in school. We had to take turns reciting it in front of the class.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...
Quentin's obsession with time has some echos of T. S Eliot Four Quartets.
Tamara wrote: "It's a poem by Sir Walter Scott. I remember it because it was one of the poems we were required to memorize in school."Any parallels to the Caddie story? What were the consequences of Young Lochinvar's bad timing? Reference to unplanned pregnancy? Just guessing...no idea.
I feel like the criticism of Jason the father is too harsh. Yes, he’s definitely a nihilist and that is a harsh philosophy to impart to your children. However, most of the distressing comments that Quentin remembers are rationalizations that the Father is making for Caddy’s situation of being an unwed mother because he knows it is so distressing to Quentin with his sense of family honor. He downplays the importance of “honor” since Caddy, who he and Quentin both love, has lost it. That may make him sound more nihilistic than he actually was. Especially when you compare him to Caroline.
He’s actually trying to make Quentin feel better, but the things Quentin remembers out of context make them seem worse. You also have to consider that everything remembered is possibly unreliable since it’s from the mind of a person about to commit suicide.
As for drinking himself to death, he does that after having one son is severely retarded, a pathological wife who only cares about one child and constantly insults his proud family, his daughter has a shotgun wedding and then his other son commits suicide after he sold his family land to send him to Harvard for a year.
I mean, cut the guy a little slack maybe? :)
Suzann wrote: "Any parallels to the Caddie story? What were the consequences..."In the poem, young Lochinvar is gallant and brave and full of energy. The lines in the poem gallop along to echo young Lochinvar as he races on horseback to rescue his lady love on her wedding day. He interrupts the wedding, dances with the bride, and then whips her up on his steed as they gallop off into the sunset.
So daring in love, and so dauntless in war,
Have ye e’er heard of gallant like young Lochinvar?
Young Lochinvar is everything Quentin isn't.
Quentin may fancy himself as a knight in shining armor who will rescue Caddy. But he is completely ineffectual. He confronts Dalton and threatens him with, "I'll give you until sundown," as if he were a gun-toting cowboy in a western. But when it comes down to it, he is weak and passes out. He cries on several occasions and Caddy has to quieten him down. He tries to talk Caddy out of marrying Herbert Head but is unsuccessful.
So in contrast to young Lochinvar, Quentin is not only unable to "save" Caddy, he is unable to save himself.
Suzann wrote: "Quentin's obsession with time has some echos of T. S Eliot Four Quartets."Great catch!
Tamara wrote: "Suzann wrote: "Any parallels to the Caddie story? What were the consequences..."In the poem, young Lochinvar is gallant and brave and full of energy. The lines in the poem gallop along to echo yo..."
I was about to attempt an explanation, but I can’t do better than that. Well done and thank you, Tamara.
Tamara wrote: "The Quentin section occurs on June 2, 1910, ........ He is unable to adjust to present reality and wants to turn back to a time in the past when honor and tradition meant something. Hence his obsession with time, his shadow, clocks, and his grandfather’s watch. He wants to freeze time. Honor and tradition seems like such an abstract adult concept for Quentin in his current mental state. Seems like Quentin might be craving a return to childhood innocence before the concept of honor or "unvirginity" muddied the drawers. Sexuality seems to be a barrier to his healthy transition to adulthood and his sanctuary seems to be the innocence of childhood with Caddie's warmth and affection. He's a motherless child. Caddie offers the only substitute. What he seems to want to freeze is the relentless oncoming future, reality which he can't handle. Retreat into the cocoon of childhood innocence doesn't work. Dalton Ames keeps intruding. Rescripting himself in the role of Dalton Ames raises complicating issues. Love the complexity of Quentin.
Tamara wrote: "In the poem, young Lochinvar is gallant and brave and full of energy. The lines in the poem gallop along to echo yo..."Thanks for the expanded reference on young Lochinvar. Do you think Lochinvar is a conscious evocation by Quentin? Is he comparing himself to Lochinvar? If so, is he faulting Lochinvar (himself) for bad timing, a minor offence, when a realistic comparison would show himself to be "ineffectual" as Tamara says. Is this image a way to show that on a day of intense reliving of the past, Quentin finds himself inadequate against the traditions of chivalry he holds up to himself. He laughs off inadequacy as bad timing, but still holds himself to the idealized standard of chivalry and bravery he can never achieve.
Aiden wrote: "As for drinking himself to death, he does that after having one son is severely retarded, a pathological wife who only cares about one child and constantly insults his proud family, his daughter has a shotgun wedding and then his other son commits suicide after he sold his family land to send him to Harvard for a year..."But why is this chain of events so devastating to this family? What is missing that might help this family survive whatever they're dealt?
Suzann wrote: "Love the complexity of Quentin...."I like your analysis. And I, too, love the complexity of Quentin.
In some ways, he reminds me of Hamlet, "The time is out of joint . . ."
Suzann wrote: "Is this image a way to show that on a day of intense reliving of the past, Quentin finds himself inadequate against the traditions of chivalry he holds up to himself. He laughs off inadequacy as bad timing, but still holds himself to the idealized standard of chivalry and bravery he can never achieve..."Good point.
I think others also recognize his inadequacy, ineptitude. When he rejects Herbert Head's bribe to keep quiet about being thrown out of Harvard for cheating, Herbert calls him, "a half-baked Galahad of a brother."
Sorry to be stuck on Lochinvar. The reference is in a sequence about Caddie's wedding. Shreve has asked Quentin about opening the wedding invitation"Three days. Times....Young Lochinvar rode out of the west a little too soon, didn't he?
I'm from the south. You're funny, aren't you.
Oh yes I knew it was somewhere in the country.
You're funny, aren't you. You ought to join the circus.
I did. That's how I ruined my eyes watering the elephant's fleas. Three times."
Is this an imaginary conversation with Dalton Ames? Quentin makes the Lochinvar reference. Dalton(?) is OK with Lochinvar referring to himself, but disputes the direction of arrival. Quentin tames the Dalton(?) threat by ridicule. Dalton(?) ruined his eyes by watering elephant's fleas. Intellectual tilting at windmills, caricatures of threats to his security in Caddies world?
Tamara wrote: "Mike wrote: "This line as shows that unlike what his father says about time healing all, for Quentin time does not heal all..."I'm wondering if it's the opposite, i.e. Quentin commits suicide bec..."
I feel that Quentin is much like Benjey and is stuck in a continuous now. We see this in how much of the section is spend talking about time, it seems that Quentin is continuously aware of time but at the same time he is unable to accept nor reconcile the present with his private world he has set up with Caddy at the center. That is how I take the conversation about Caddy’s pregnancy.
We see in the section that we have two time periods played out at the same time. We have his daily life at Harvard interlaced with echos of his past with Caddy. Quentin seems to be unable to accept nor reconcile these two time periods. Benjey seems to be able to live in a continuous now while Quentin is not. In my opinion that is why he ultimately commits suicide.
This is my first time reading the book and I have not really read any of the Faulkner's commentary on the book, so I am very interested to see why he put these two sections back-to-back.
Suzann wrote: "Is this an imaginary conversation with Dalton Ames? Quentin makes the Lochinvar reference. Dalton(?) is OK with Lochinvar referring to himself, but disputes the direction of arrival. .."Based on the context, I think this is a conversation with Herbert Head.
Caroline Compson introduces Quentin to Herbert:
"Quentin this is Herbert. My Harvard boy. Herbert will be a big brother has already promised Jason a position in the bank.
Then Quentin says he has heard of him up there. And by that I think he means he has heard he was thrown out of a club for cheating at cards and thrown out of Harvard for cheating on an exam.
Then the mention of the wedding invitation and Shreve asking if he's going to open it. That's when the reference to young Lochinvar comes up. So I think it's a conversation between Quentin and Herbert Head. They are verbally jousting with each other and Herbert is making fun of him.
That's how I'm reading it. But there maybe other ways of looking at it.
Tamara wrote: "Based on the context, I think this is a conversation with Herbert Head..."So, I had this all wrong. The context is Caddie introducing Herbert Head to Quentin, but it doesn't seem to be a very literally recalled. I doubt that a Harvard man on first meeting his fiance's brother would literally say "you're funny. You ought to join the circus." Seems like Quentin, in his disturbed state of mind, recreates a conversation in which he is ridiculed, or that the encounter is ridiculed. He can't abide anyone with his Caddie and he doesn't intend to be friends with Herbert. The circus reference sounded like Dalton. Maybe one bloke or another doesn't matter. They're taking his Caddie.
Suzann wrote: "Maybe one bloke or another doesn't matter. They're taking his Caddie...."I think you’re probably right that Quentin would have hated anyone who took Caddy away. On the other hand, Herbert Head is a bit sleazy. He was thrown out of Harvard for cheating on his exams. He attributes it to never having a mother like Quentin's "to teach him the finer points . . ."
He plans to give Jason a position at the bank and wants to do something for Quentin. Apparently, this involves bribing Quentin to keep quiet about his transgressions and promising to introduce him to “a little widow” over in town because he knows,
. . . how it is with a young fellow he has lots of private affairs it’s always pretty hard to get the old man to stump up for I know haven’t I been there and not so long ago either . . .”
Quentin rejects his offer and tells Caddy what he knows about Herbert Head to dissuade her from marrying him:
A liar and a scoundrel Caddy was dropped from his club for cheating at cards got sent to Coventry caught cheating at midterm exams and expelled . . .”
She replies she's not planning to play cards with him. Caddy feels she has no choice but to marry him:
Seen the doctor yet have you seen Caddy I dont have to I cant ask now afterward it will be all right it wont matter
And later,
Why must you marry somebody Caddy Do you want me to say it do you think that if I say it it wont be
Regardless of the hang-ups Quentin has about Caddy and her upcoming marriage, Herbert Head is hardly an ideal prospect to be marrying one's sister.
Tamara wrote: "When he rejects Herbert Head's bribe to keep quiet about being thrown out of Harvard for cheating, Herbert calls him, "a half-baked Galahad of a brother."I was just going to mention this, because (I don't know if I'm misremebering this) but isn't Galahad one of the youngest and purest of the knights who seek the grail, and thus chaste/celibate? So I wonder if this is an indirect reference to Quentin's sexuality?
What are we to make of Quentin's sexuality? Is he asexual? Traumatized by his sister's promiscuity? On a first reading I got an odd feeling that there was an undercurrent of homoeroticism in this section; not so much about Quentin himself, but there are a few descriptions of men: Dalton is described as tanned (or something like that), Gerald as being too beautiful for a man. Then there's the friend who teasingly calls Shreve Quentin's "husband."
Not sure what Faulkner's intention was, but maybe it's about Quentin comparing himself with these virile men who are attractive to women, and being unable to identify with that kind of masculinity, instead wanting to be more like a pure/chaste knight of old.
In some ways, this is a more challenging read than the Benjy section. Like Benjy, Quentin is out of joint with time and oscillates between present and past. His swings in time are harder to decipher than Benjy’s. The opening lines reveal his obsession with time. He is unable to adjust to present reality and wants to turn back to a time in the past when honor and tradition meant something. Hence his obsession with time, his shadow, clocks, and his grandfather’s watch. He wants to freeze time. The long, convoluted sentences at the end of this section are without punctuation or paragraphs to reflect his level of distress and emotional intensity. They also reflect that for him, there is no past and no future. All is in the present.
Some significant flashbacks: Caddy’s loss of virginity to Dalton Ames; Quentin’s confrontation with Dalton when he learns of Caddy’s pregnancy; his meeting with Caddy’s fiancé, Sydney Herbert Head; and a pivotal conversation he has with his father in which he falsely claims to have committed incest.
For those who would like some additional clues: (view spoiler)[Like Benjy, Quentin is obsessed with blotting out Caddy’s sexual maturity. But whereas Benjy struggles with it because he is losing a maternal figure, Quentin struggles because it reminds him of a dying order. He sees Caddy’s sexual promiscuity as conflicting with southern values and equates Caddy’s innocence with family honor and the moral virtues of the past.
He attends Caddy’s wedding to Sydney Herbert Head on April 25. He knows she is pregnant with another man’s child. Presumably, the father is Dalton Ames, a name that keeps cropping up in this section. (hide spoiler)]