The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

The 2020 shortlist is:

The New Wilderness by Diane Cook (Oneworld Publications)
This Mournable Body by Tsitsi Dangarembga (Faber & Faber)
Burnt Sugar by Avni Doshi (Penguin Random House)
The Shadow King by Maaza Mengiste (Canongate Books)
Shuggie Bain by Douglas Stuart (Picador, Pan Macmillan)
Real Life by Brandon Taylor (Originals, Daunt Books Publishing)

Opening this for discussion now. Hope something happens soon...

Times Radio are claiming its going to be announced around 1215-1220 (and implying they are covering it live). But it is the Times ...

Probably good for page hits of lots of people keep refreshing Twitter and Facebook pages for half an hour.

The You Tube page has had a video added but its locked as private

The 2020 shortlist is:

Diane Cook (USA), The New Wilderness (Oneworld Publications)

Tsitsi Dangarembga (Zimbabwe), This Mournable Body (Faber & Faber)

Avni Doshi (USA), Burnt Sugar (Hamish Hamilton, Penguin Random House)

Maaza Mengiste (Ethiopia/USA), The Shadow King (Canongate Books)

Douglas Stuart (Scotland/USA), Shuggie Bain (Picador, Pan Macmillan)

Brandon Taylor (USA), Real Life (Originals, Daunt Books Publishing)

A massacre of the favourites! Shuggie Bain has to win now!

Interesting. Apart from Shuggie Bain these are the books I've seen most criticism of. (In terms of GR friends in general, not necessarily frequent posters in the group._

What a mess - this year’s booker shortlist is a complete disaster. I never say f bombs but I let a couple loose now

Yes I would agree Anto - a number of followers of the prize (a number of who are ex-members) have been very critical on some of those - including heckling some of my reviews when I ventured to like them.

A number of books have not fared so well here I think - Hugh can you confirm the final M&G rankings on our two measures.

Where is Apeirogon?! So sad, I'm in love with this book.

I'm very happy to see my two favourites so far, Burnt Sugar and This Mournable Body, on the list. I have also read Real Life so have three to read.

Hugh wrote: "A massacre of the favourites! Shuggie Bain has to win now!"

From previous thread:
None of them 12%
One of them 44%
Two of them 37%
All three 7%

One always was the most likely outcome!

That said I'd have been surprised not to see one of This Mournable Body, Burnt Sugar and The Shadow King - but all three was a surprise

And actually that's where my tip would be now - one of those three.

I’m surprised to see The Mirror and the Light missing. I know there has been plenty of criticism here, but it really stood out to me against the others I’ve read. From what’s left? Avni Doshi is from New Jersey, as I am, so go Jersey!

I've only read 1 - wasn't expecting to have 5 left to read (or one could argue 7)

That said pleased that the two I didn't want to make it didn't make it.

Oh, well. Over the last few years it feels like the Booker has gone a step further each year in its attempt to stop me reading the books. I think it may finally have succeeded.

I would agree with Paul - given these choices I would make one of This Mournable Body, Burnt Sugar, The Shadow King the likely winner.

What a snub for Mantel, though - not even shortlisted!

Ugh. I read one chapter of The New Wilderness and sent it back to the library thinking it was badly written nonsense. Glad to see This Mournable Body though.

I think they had to break the link at some point - it was the same as they should have done with Atwood last year.

Book out this evening …………………...

The 2020 winner will be announced on Tuesday 17 November in an event broadcast from London’s Roundhouse in collaboration with BBC Arts. The ceremony has been re-imagined, transposing the traditional dinner at the Guildhall to a globally accessible ceremony without walls. In light of the pandemic, the newly formatted event aims to creatively engage readers across the world with the shortlisted books, authors and the overall winner. It will be a multi-platform offering, including a one-off BBC Two programme in the run-up, a Live Page on BBC Arts, coverage on BBC World News, the live announcement of the winner on BBC Radio 4’s Front Row and the winner interview on BBC News at Ten.

I am still a little shocked - my favourite two books of the year have gone, and Sophie Ward too. What do we know?

Wow. I’m definitely surprised by this list, but at the same time I’m not surprised that the two established white authors got the axe. That seems consistent with the panel and the times we’re living in... and at the end of the day I respect the judging ethos of wanting to elevate new, underrepresented voices.

All that said, I wish How Much of These Hills Is Gold had made it over Real Life.

I think I’m team The Shadow King now! Though I still need to read The New Wilderness.

More than the judges in your case Hugh to be honest - I doubt any of them has your breadth of reading. But that's how prizes work - the judges pick the books and I think we have seen a strong influence here.

I do think its a very interesting list with a distinctive style - 4 of the books for me were ones that were fascinating as I looked back on them, but maybe less fun to actually read. But hopefully they will give us lots to debate about them in the next two months.

Wow- I'm in absolute shock. I was absolutely convinced that TMATL was a surefire choice, Apeirogon had a strong chance, and I had my hopes for Love and Other Thought Experiments.

Very happy about Shuggie Bain and Real Life, but I'm very unhappy that The New Wilderness, which is at the bottom of my dynamics ranking list, somehow managed to beat Love and Other Thought Experiments. This shortlist couldn't be more shocking.

Nicholas wrote: "Wow. I’m definitely surprised by this list, but at the same time I’m not surprised that the two established white authors got the axe. That seems consistent with the panel and the times we’re living in... and at the end of the day I respect the judging ethos of wanting to elevate new, underrepresented voices.."

That's a very good take (and I think you called Apeirogon)

Neil wrote: "What a snub for Mantel, though - not even shortlisted!"

I think I posted pre longlist, that longlisting but not shortlisting Mantel would be the ultimate snub as it implies the book was given a fair chance and just didn't cut it.

A weak long list begets a weak shortlist, in my opinion.
Unlike other (lesser) prizes whose brief is either more limited or more closely defined, the Booker stated charter:
Awarded annually to the best novel of the year written in English
This is probably designed to foster argument because its so subjective. As Nicholas has commented here, the long list this year seems to have been put together "consistent with the panel and the times we’re living in.."
Maybe the charter could be updated to claim "the best novel focusing on contemporary themes and reflecting a global reach (in English). The six shortlisted would qualify, as would Apeirogon while Mantel would have been outed.
I only say this as a reflection of what might have happened this year, rather than stating a personal view.

One thing that struck me last week Jonathan watching the Women's Prize shortlist readings (a prize I know you rate highly like me) was how Kate Mosse adds a stability and consistency to that prize from year to year. For better or worse the Booker lacks that I think.

Gumble's Yard wrote: "One thing that struck me last week Jonathan watching the Women's Prize shortlist readings (a prize I know you rate highly like me) was how Kate Mosse adds a stability and consistency to that prize ..."

Totally agree

Ion Trewin was the Booker's literary director for several years and when he died, Gaby Wood took over, so not really different to the Women's Prize in that respect.

Another interesting event (albeit not free of charge)

https://membership.theguardian.com/ev...

Join us for a special livestreamed event with the shortlisted authors for the 2020 Booker Prize.





Now in its 52nd year, The Booker Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards for fiction in the English language.

This year's six shortlisted authors are Diane Cook for The New Wilderness; Tsitsi Dangarembga for This Mournable Body; Avni Doshi for Burnt Sugar; Maaza Mengiste for The Shadow King; Douglas Stuart for Shuggie Bain and Brandon Taylor for Real Life.

In the week leading up to the announcement of this year’s winner, join us for an evening of readings and conversation with the shortlisted authors, hosted by writer and critic Alex Clark. You will also have the chance to ask your own questions.

Margaret Busby it must be remembered was chosen (at least that's what Peter Florence said to her, as reported by our spy) precisely to produce a more diverse list than past years'. Which seems to be her take as well:

Busby said that, in the first 43 years of the prize – now in its 51st year – only two people of colour had served as Booker judges, out of more than 200.

“That’s not to say that under the auspices of the Booker, brilliant decisions have not been made about excellent literature for decades. However, it does matter for there to be opportunities to see culture and creativity from different perspectives,” she said. “Each of us makes judgments through the prism of who we are and what we have learned or internalized. That’s why diversity has always been important. Diversity is reality. The scope of this year’s books has allowed us to luxuriate in skillful storytelling and to be surprised by what unheard voices have to articulate.”

This is a pretty punchy statement arguing blame the books not the judges:

“No one wins the Booker prize because of who they are. A book wins because of what it does,” said Gaby Wood, literary director of the Booker Prize Foundation as the shortlist was announced.

Lee Child says Mantel was very good, just not good enough:

“It is an absolutely wonderful novel, there’s no question about it,” said judge Lee Child, of Mantel’s novel, The Mirror and the Light. “It’s a trilogy which will live forever. But as good as it was, there were some books which were better.”

Not having read 5 on the list I can't comment but it seems a fair take.

As to the other two that missed:

Did the #McCanngate scandal cost Apeirogon?

And while I am disappointed Sophie Ward missed out, it was always an odd choice vs the rest of the list (and so I suspect, per Ang, one judge pushed it). The real people to blame in her case are the Goldsmith's eligibility rules as it would have fitted better there.

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but on the Booker website right now, Brandon Taylor is listed as the winning author. Any idea what that's about?

Laura wrote: "I don't know if anyone else noticed, but on the Booker website right now, Brandon Taylor is listed as the winning author. Any idea what that's about?"
Interesting if it turns out to be correct!

Mantel deserved more respect - it would have been better to leave her off the longlist.

If I was Brandon Taylor, I’d be screenshotting that right now!

It's becoming an American prize isn't it. The Canadian Giller Prize longlist looks more interesting.

This shortlist, OMG! I really hope Shadow King will win.

Louise wrote: "It's becoming an American prize isn't it. ."

This was the best take I thought

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londo...

Maybe they should rename it the Chlorinated Novel prize?

“Debut novelists”
That’s the element that most disconcerted me. The element of personal biography in debut novels is often high, and there’s clear evidence of that in this shortlist. The New Wilderness is the exception on that front.
It’s a valid question to surmise what that “difficult second novel” would look like from some of these debutants, and until that is revealed there a danger they are one trick ponies.
That doesn’t preclude the possibility that a debut novel is a superb one, but history indicates that is so rarely the case and that great authors produce their very best work later in their careers.

Random thoughts.

I would not be so quick to blame the judges. There is a possibility that the Booker is seeking another direction since losing Man support.

Also, regrettably, book selling is a commercial interest and the benefits of Booker endorsement might be causing commercial interference.

The one good thing is that if Shuggie wins, there won't be much argument that the prize should have gone to a different book.

This isn't the only worldwide literary prize that is seeing a shift toward more commercial selections.

I have sympathy for Mantel and McCann.

This is not the way to obtain and encourage diversity.

Hugh wrote: "Mantel deserved more respect - it would have been better to leave her off the longlist."

Or better this way depending on the desired effect - it was what I hoped for pre-longlist as I think it sends a powerful signal. Judged by a diverse group of judges, her books really aren't as great as they've been made to seem by the Booker canon.

I don't see many of these books as potential bestsellers!

I don't see how Shuggie can win, however deserving, in a year when they are clearly making efforts at diversity and probably wanting to live down last year's blunder.

Is the prize really becoming more American? Last year wasn't particularly American.

I'm as surprised as many others - though disappointed might be a better descriptor. Honestly, I thought this was a fake shortlist. Seeing Brandon Taylor as The Winner is interesting. We will know for sure in October.

While I still have several books to read this seems a weak shortlist.

A few book-specific comments:
- While I enjoyed The New Wilderness, it's not an especially great book.
- Conversely, while I didn't much enjoy This Mournable Body, I thought it deserved another reading before making up my mind.
- I have mixed feelings on Real Life. As I mentioned previously, "It feels almost clinical in its precision? A clear product of an American MFA program, yes? There is a certain rawness - but even that feels calculated, I think."

The American argument is a distraction - only Taylor and Cook were born there, and Doshi and Mengiste along with Dangarembga give countries outside Europe and the Americas better representation than usual.

In respose to Hugh. The Booker endorsement increases sales and provides a marketing push, or could be used as one more asset in a larger marketing campaign, such as was launched with The New Wilderness, which has a television tie-in.

Here is a link to Dubravka Ugrešić interview which has points on serious fiction, self-emancipated writers, and literay evaluation that I think is interesting when thinking of this year's Booker.

https://www.asymptotejournal.com/inte...

Emily wrote: "Is the prize really becoming more American? Last year wasn't particularly American."

Yes, I think the prize is becoming more American. American Literature was only considered beginning in 2013 after which there was an inherent increase. (I don't think this is really what you're asking.)

2019 stands out as a much more traditional year for the prize. The judges selected titles by many well-established authors and many of the selections were not from America.

At the longlist announcement in 2019, only 5 titles were available in Canada (where the publication dates tend to match America). 2 titles had not released anywhere. 6 titles were not listed with Canadian release dates at all.

At the longlist announcement this year, 9 titles were available in Canada (where publication dates tend to match America). 1 was listed available for pre-order and 3 were not listed with Canadian release dates at all.

A big reason for this difference is that there were quite a lot of books from America on the longlist this year.

This year, 5 of the authors on the shortlist are connected to the USA (https://thebookerprizes.com/booker-pr...) which is quite a lot.

Well it seems contemporary issues won out over fine writing. For me, Shuggie is the best written, but I'm also a fan of Shadow King and appreciate This Mournable Body's inclusion. I understand Real Life's pick. The one that makes no sense to me is The New Wilderness.

Dylan wrote: "Emily wrote: "Is the prize really becoming more American? Last year wasn't particularly American."

Yes, I think the prize is becoming more American. American Literature was only considered beginni..."

I see what you're saying and agree that THIS year is quite American (I have an ereader tied to a Canadian library and was surprised by how many I could get). I guess my question, better phrased, would be "has there really been an American takeover since they were allowed in or is this year just an anomoly?" But maybe it's too soon to tell.

I can't speak for all the writers, but I would say Douglas Stuart is American in the way I'm Spanish. Which is to say, I think it's a stretch to call a book published by a Scotsman about his childhood in Glasgow an American book, for all that he lives there.