A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion

Spoilers- Just a quick thought. When Tyroin at last confronts his father with a crossbow about the farce of a trial he endured, Tywin quickly tells Tyroin that he has no intention letting a Lannister get hung and the plan always was to let him take the black. I took this at face value the first few times I read Storm of Swords....and by face value i assumed that Tywin was of course lying, just trying to get him to put the crossbow down and if Tyroin did he would quickly be killed. But it struck me as a possiblity that maybe... (small maybe) Tywin was telling the truth. Its no secret that Tywin hates his son for be a dissapointment (namely being a dwarf) but there have been so many other oppertunitys to get rid of Tyroin at other parts of his life. If he really had wanted him dead Tywin would have acted on it. And it truly seems that he doesnt think Tyroin actually killed Joffery so could he actually be telling the truth? That he would never let a lannister be hung like that? I still hold that he was lying but its a interesting thing to think about

I don't think it really matters. I actually believe he might have been telling the truth, but even if Tyrion had believed him then and there, I don't think he would have put the crossbow down and just surrendered. Even if he was telling the truth, Tywin wasn't gonna get out of that privy alive.

I think he was being honest with Tyrion, but the important part was that Tyrion wanted to believe him. Which is part of why Tyrion is now obsessing over which other things his dad was or was not honest about - ie the crofter's daughter episode.

Lol thank god someone said it. I wad getting a headache from the misspelled name

Guguelpuntoes wrote: "Brendon wrote: "Spoilers- Just a quick thought. When Tyroin at last confronts his father with a crossbow about the farce of a trial he endured, Tywin quickly tells Tyroin that he has no intention ..."

Ah, be nice! My phone gives me conniptions trying to enter any of the character names - always changing them to Tyler and Danube and crap.

Stephanie wrote: "Guguelpuntoes wrote: "Brendon wrote: "Spoilers- Just a quick thought. When Tyroin at last confronts his father with a crossbow about the farce of a trial he endured, Tywin quickly tells Tyroin tha..."

But you wrote it right, Stephanie. It was Brendan who misspelled it.

It was me who started typing it wrong. It looked wrong when I spelled it and the books were not in front of me when I wrote it so I even looked it up in Wikipedia......Wikipedia had it spelled wrong so I listened to the internet and looked like a fool lol. Didn't someone tell me the internet is always right lol?

And Remy paid me back by misspelling my name lol

Brendon wrote: "And Remy paid me back by misspelling my name lol"

He... sorry. Brendon.

I just love Tyrion. This whole scene was just so... perfect. Tyrion finally had his redemption and won't be living underneath the shadow of Tywin anymore. As to whether Tywin was lying or not I wouldn't be surprised either way. I personally feel like he was telling the truth. As much as he hates Tyrion I have a theory that Tywin made a promise to his wife to treat Tyrion as if he was his son and to protect him. An easy promise to make before Tyrion "killed" her during childbirth and Tywin obviously blames him for it. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that she should have never been pregnant with him to begin with being a result of Aerys forcing himself on her. (Obviously I am one of the theorists that believe Tyrion is actually a Targaryen. I am either going to end up ecstatic or disappointed but hey, that's the fun part :) )

I don't think it's about Tywin taking care of his son (I don't support the theory of Tyrion being a Targaryen by the way). I think Tywion never even saw his children as... his children. That's why he hated that Jamie, his heir, had taken the Kingsguard's vows, and Cersei was only useful to him married to someone important that could give him some benefit.

And to him Tyrion was a useless dwarf that embarrased him but, as he said more than once, he was still a Lannister. Maybe Tywin regreted leting him live and not geting rid of him when he was born, but he probably couldn't do it since that would be kind of like shitting in the memory of his recently deceased wife.

So, since Tyrion was a Lannister, he didn't have any choice but to protect in some way his dignity, because it was his name, the name of his House, that was a stake. And we know how much dignity and respect meant for Tywin (The rains of Castamere, anyone?). That's why he made him believe Tysha was a whore instead of leting him get married to a lowborn that couldn't him any benefit and why he made him his replacement as Hand of the King. Though I think that last one also meant that Tywin still have some respect for Tyrion's intellect. He was no foll, and he must have known how clever Tyrion was.

So, my point is... I do think Tywin was telling the truth and wouldn't have let Tyrion be executed but send him to the Wall, since his execution would be a worse stain in the reputation of the Lannister than only having him take the black, which is still a little bit better.

I don't know. I can understand offering Ned the black, but given that Tyrion's alleged crime was kinslaying as well as regicide, I doubt he would necessarily have been offered the same deal. I think Tywin may have even gotten some pride out of being looked at as someone willing to sit back and let justice be done to his own son. But on the other hand, they could have declared that Tommen would not execute his uncle, they're above kinslaying even if Tyrion deserves death, but instead will allow him to take the black.I am also willing to believe he was telling the truth because given his response to Tyrion's confrontation about Tysha, I don't think he was concerned with just saying something to placate his son. I think he was glad to be rid of Joffrey, who he no doubt realizes would have tarnished the family legacy as much as the Mad King did to the previous dynasty, and have Tyrion somewhere where he would no longer be an embarrassment, his physical traits as well as his whoring and drinking, any longer. I'm sure he was ready to just move on and put his hopes on remarrying Cersei to someone and having him and Kevan pull the strings of Tommen and raise him as they wished.

Tyrion has always been a thorn in Tywin's side and Tywin has wanted rid of that thorn for some time. Remember he insisted that Tyrion lead the vanguard against Robb's forces, that's not an act of a father wanting to keep his son alive. Tywin has always wanted Tyrion dead, he just didn't want to do the deed himself. So as far as the trial by combat, the 'gods' decided Tyrion's fate and Tywin would have let the Kings Justice take Tyrions head.

The interesting thing to me is that Tywin knows Tyrion didn't poison Joffrey and yet he lets Tyrion take the fall. I think THIS is what will be Tyrions driving force-Who did poison Joffrey and why did Tywin help cover it up?

I think there is more to the Purple Wedding than meets the eye....but anyway JMHO

Rebecca wrote: "Tyrion has always been a thorn in Tywin's side and Tywin has wanted rid of that thorn for some time. Remember he insisted that Tyrion lead the vanguard against Robb's forces, that's not an act of a..."

Good point about leading the vanguard, I hadn't thought of that

Rebecca wrote: "Tyrion has always been a thorn in Tywin's side and Tywin has wanted rid of that thorn for some time. Remember he insisted that Tyrion lead the vanguard against Robb's forces, that's not an act of a..."

Hmm ... I don't know ... I don't really see that as an attempt to get Tyrion killed. More like Tywin indirectly saying to him: "Hey, you wanted to know what war was like? Here, try this!" Not that Tywin would mourn greatly if Tyrion were killed, but I don't think he would deliberately try to get his son killed.

I think that he wasn't lying when he said that he wouldn't allow Tyrion to be executed - not out of any affection for Tyrion himself, but because executing a member of the Lannister family for regicide would be a huge blot on the family name. There was only one thing Tywin loved, and that's the Lannister family's reputation. He would definitely have tried to find a way to protect it.

I think the best person who understands his father best is Tyrion.

"The vanguard?" he repeated dubiously. Either his father had a new respect for Tyrion's abilities, or he'd decided to rid himself of his embarrassing get for good. Tyrion had the gloomy feeling he knew which.

And as Tyrion tries to jest his way out of what is basically a death sentence, his father humiliates and corners him.

"When soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their Lord Commander," his father said.

"A bigger man would be able to put the fear in them, is that what you're saying, my lord?"

"If my son's men will not obey his commands, perhaps the vanguard is not the place for him. No doubt he would be more comfortable in the rear, guarding our baggage train."

Tywin goes on to say that Tyrion will serve under Ser Gregor Clegane......It's always been stated that Tywin loathes being laughed at and yet after goading his dwarf son into accepting the offer, the men laugh as Tyrion leaves.

I believe that Tywin has always wanted Tyrion dead, he simply didn't want to actually do the deed himself IMHO.

I imagine he was telling the truth. Tywin was a cold and calculating bastard, and there appeared to be no limit to how far he would go to use his own children as pawns. But one thing I can't deny is the fact that he placed his family and its well-being as a whole above all else. The man valued his blood-kin, if for no other reason than so he could use them to advance their house's agenda.

So while I do believe he was willing to try and sentence his son for the sake of appeasing Cersei and meting our the appearance of justice, I'm inclined to think that he was also planning on scurrying his son away to some lesser fate before his impending execution.