THE Group for Authors! discussion

Mano a mano

The key to any good fight scene is to make sure you factor in reaction, not just give a play-by-play of the blows. What are the sounds, smells (blood), feelings (pain), as well as emotions (anger, fear). Weave those into your scene and you've got a pretty bitchin' fight scene.

I actually watch clips from films and document all the movements and reactions etc. blow by blow (pun intended) :). Of course depending on what kind of book you are writing, the physically impossible elements are left out.

Real fights don't look like they do in the movies. Remember your point of view. If you're in a character's POV read some bio's of folks that have actually fought. I can tell you true, fights are flashes of moments, confusion, burning skin, numb knuckles, swollen places, quaking knees, the desperate need to breath, and nothing goes like either opponent wants it to go. No matter heroes - one of them is scared and the other one is damn glad.

Points taken. Hope they all feature in my recent novel as I'm quite a passive soul. Definitely about strong characters, their feelings and emotions.

Author Fiona Quinn writes a great blog on Thrill Writing for mystery and thriller authors. She interviews a lot of subject matter experts and actually has done a few posts about various aspects of writing fight scenes with some input from so high level folks. Here are a few links:

http://www.thrillwriting.blogspot.com... - Can your character survive multiple attackers with terror expert Rock Higgins

http://thrillwriting.blogspot.com/201... - Them's Fightin' Words!

http://thrillwriting.blogspot.com/201... - How to write a fight with martial arts by Hall of Famer Eli Jackson

T.H. wrote: "The key to any good fight scene is to make sure you factor in reaction, not just give a play-by-play of the blows. What are the sounds, smells (blood), feelings (pain), as well as emotions (anger, ..."
That and, to write with just enough detail not to confuse someone to what's going on.

Ann, dynamite. Olivia, didn't think of that. T.H. You said bitchin' heh heh

Oh of course! Must have dynamite. Lots. LOL. Yes, there is a lot that goes into the writing of a fight scene and minute details do make a huge difference. It helps that my brother and I fought a lot growing up-boxing style! Oh the sibling rivalry!

Gene wrote: "That and, to write with just enough detail not to confuse someone to what's going on."

Well, that's true of every scene you write, not just fight scenes :-)

Anne - thank you for that link!! I don't write thrillers, so I never looked for that type of information, but my series is turning in that direction and I see tons of useful articles!

I found this helpful
http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/03/21...

Alp

I've been taking martial arts off and on for a few decades, teach hand to hand to law enforcement, and have studied different styles of fighting both practically and academically. Feel free to contact me if you need help with this.

What's really helpful for writing a good fight scene? Study theater blocking, the stage directions in plays. It makes things really clear.

I would recommend this excellent guide:



Lots of examples of what works and what doesn't across multiple genres

Keep sentences short and punchy to create a sense of momentum and action.
Keep things in order i.e. don't have a character react to an action before you tell the reader that action has taken place.

I find putting myself in the fight mentally helps. I imagine it step by step as if I were a combatant, but fortunately one who has the time to think out each and every move--and I can be each of the combatants one at a time.

And unless you're writing fantasy with a superhero character with superhuman powers, make it real. I spent ten years in law enforcement, and trust me, there's a lot of stumbling around in any fight. It's rarely--no, change that to never--perfectly coordinated except in a Hollywood movie.

What you have to keep in mind is also whether you write in third or in first person - a first person account is much more subjective and less detailed, since the adrenalin rush often impairs memory. When you've been in more combat situations, the influence of adrenalin becomes less and you'll be better at recalling specifics.

A fight is more compelling if we already know who the characters are and why they're fighting -- when the fight is a manifestation of a dramatic conflict the reader has already perceived. There should be a sense of life-and-death about it, even if it turns out not actually to be a fight to the death.

I'm assuming we're talking about a realistic fight in a realistic fiction (not fantasy, alternative universes, etc.). In that case, in terms of craft, the scene should be mostly action and not so much thinking. Emotional response also should be kept to a minimum, as emotion usually comes after the fight is over; when someone is punching you, you know it hurts and the hurt can't do anything but make you feel angry, upset, and possibly frightened (unless the character is a masochist and is enjoying the hurt and/or perhaps feels he deserves it). All those emotions are immanent in the moment and needn't be stated while the fight is happening. Another way of saying it: a fight is a crisis and in a crisis time seems to move very fast. All your attention is devoted to defending yourself while also inflicting enough hurt on your adversary quickly enough to put a stop to his attack on you. In such circumstances, space for thought is very slim, indeed. The thinking that is involved is usually pretty straightforward and instinctive. Perhaps the worst error is to bring the actual fight to standstill by describing a complex choreography of feint-and-strike as it is, implausibly, unfolding in the character's mind. If there is something really interesting of this sort to say, say it before the actual fight begins -- when the character sees the fight is about to happen and is trying to figure out his best chance for success. Once the fight starts, just describe the actual feint-and-strike the character executes, and its results.

I've been assuming a fist-fight or some kind of one-on-one, hand-to-hand struggle. If you're talking about a gunfight with two characters stalking each other through a warehouse crowded with steel shipping containers, or a forest with plenty of big trees, the action might be slower and more protracted, affording space for thought and development of strategy. It's still a crisis and still scary, but if there's cover, the imperative of mustering self-defense is slightly lessened. Still, a fight shouldn't go on too long. There is no strict limit, of course, and if both characters are really good at defense and not so deft at landing punches, the thing could go on for awhile. If it goes on too long, however, it starts to seem comic; one imagines these fierce combatants getting bored blocking feeble punches and starting to quip back and forth about it's being too bad neither of them ever took boxing lessons. Of course, if they insult each other sufficiently in the quipping, they can get enraged all over again. That might make for a good fight scene, but at some point soon something decisive has to happen and the fight ends. Most fist-fights are over very quickly, as it really, really hurts to get punched in the face, and to punch someone in the face hurts your hand, as well (if your fighting character is a huge, heavy-boned individual with hands like sledgehammer heads, then maybe not so much; you'd want to establish these characteristics well before the fight occurs). It's an intense, highly-fraught moment, violent and shocking and atavistic. Don't diminish its raw urgency by overwriting it to the point that it takes much longer to read it than it would to live it.

Fight scenes are action scenes. Too much detail will bog down any action-dominated scene. Just give the most important motions. It's like painting a minimalist picture--sumi-e, not trompe l'oeil--the objective is to give an impression of the action and let the reader imagine the rest.

Watching clips can lead you down the garden path, trying to make the action too realistic, too detailed. Studying kung fu detail won't make you a better writer any more than studying writing will make you a kung fu master.

Nicki is right: "Keep sentences short and punchy (ha-ha!)...Keep things in order..." Imagine the scene as if you're filming it: tell us what the camera sees, and when, but just the most important points.

Allow some character reaction, but don't let it stop the flow. Put it in places where there's a natural break and keep it terse.

I've written 16 stage plays. Writing stage action is different from novels.

If you find yourself writing: "Jorge put his left foot down behind him and, pivoting on it, swiveled his hips and thrust himself towards Gromeck, grabbing upward for the pistol right-handed, with incredible speed..." you are doomed.

I've seen this over and over: "Baron von Kreep slipped on the blood and dropped his Mauser." People who slip grab whatever they're holding tighter. If you want to disarm someone, please be clever about it.

More is less. Minimize detail. As John says, an action scene shouldn't take much longer to read than it would to live. Remember "Can't I just shoot him?" (Harrison Ford).

All good.

But what I excell at (or so my readers say) and what I feel strongly about is realism.

I read a couple of novels the other day, in preparation for an interview I wanted to do with an author. It was a struggle at times, most particularly, the fight scenes. It was clear to me the person writing had never fought anyone. Or even played at fighting.

You write action novels, it helps to be an action person. You write fights, it helps to have had a few Taekwondo, boxing or wrestling classes. Or watched a few movies anyway.

I read a friend's romance novels a few years back. The requisite amount of sex--what is that, I don't know--two or three sex scenes, but not too detailed?

They weren't convincing, if you know what I mean...

And as for length, well, it depends. If your readers want it, expect it, need it to be a compelling read. Then let it happen. In my third novel, True Believer--I write Westerns--I wrote the same scene for four or five different chapters. Each time, a different character's viewpoint. It felt good, and gave the final fight (as I recall) a certain excitement that a single installment wouldn't have.

The key to all writing is to make them feel it.......Call up your angry side, step into the circle, feel the fight, then put it down in ink!

Don't just stay with the punches. Go inside your protagonist's head to his emotional/intellectual reaction to what's happening and his next strategy or lack thereof. Also, what does he think of when he hits his adversary? Surely more than just "Right now I'm landing a punch to his left jaw, I hope I break it." Why is he (or she) fighting the guy (or woman)? No, why really? Deep down.

Look, it's easy. Just go down to a fairly dodgy pub, shout "you're all really dreadful, and your girlfriends are unfulfilled and alienated..." and then, when it kicks off, take notes.

I find the best way to write a fight scene is to imagine the locale and the fight unfolding in my head. I write each move I see, each facial expression, each injury and whatever parts of the environment that are being used. From there, I got back and edit it to make sense as it unfolds. Sometimes I miss a few nuggets, but hey...I can always hope to flesh those parts out with a choreographer in a movie??/ Lol....one can dream,lol.

David wrote: "Look, it's easy. Just go down to a fairly dodgy pub, shout "you're all really dreadful, and your girlfriends are unfulfilled and alienated..." and then, when it kicks off, take notes."

Just don't forget to dodge that first bottle...

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "Just don't forget to dodge the first bottle."

...the scene looked ugly, and then something cracked on the back of his head. The next thing he knew was the floor and darkness.

There we are - job done.

Awesome fight scene, David!

...and you can claim the BUPA health care for the injuries off tax, because it was research.

J. wrote: "I've seen this over and over: "Baron von Kreep slipped on the blood and dropped his Mauser." People who slip grab whatever they're holding tighter."

Not if he's using his hands to break his fall.

John wrote: "J. wrote: "I've seen this over and over: "Baron von Kreep slipped on the blood and dropped his Mauser." People who slip grab whatever they're holding tighter."

Not if he's using his hands to break..."

Have you used that line in one of your tales? Kreep will still be clutching the weapon reflexively when his hands hit the floor. When people are falling, the instinct to grab something trumps all thoughts, including, "Oh, I should drop my gun so I can break my fall."

David wrote: "Look, it's easy. Just go down to a fairly dodgy pub, shout "you're all really dreadful, and your girlfriends are unfulfilled and alienated..." and then, when it kicks off, take notes."

David, that is hilarious! You made me laugh my head off. And it's a good idea too....only thing is one may not be able to take notes after shouting something like that in a dodgy pub!Lol.

John wrote: "J. wrote: "I've seen this over and over: "Baron von Kreep slipped on the blood and dropped his Mauser." People who slip grab whatever they're holding tighter."

Not if he's using his hands to break..."

Most people tense up when falling, unless they learned how to break their fall. Still, going by my own experience, I wouldn't drop my sword if I slipped.

HOWEVER:
If a character slips and the elbow of the gun arm cracks hard against a point surface (curb/kerb or cobblestones), the 'electric shock' that travels through the arm can involuntarily open the hand and make someone drop his sword/gun/club. That should be specified though. I agree with J that most people wouldn't drop their weapon when slipping. Not just because you hold on tight or tense up, but also because most people don't drop their weapon unless their arm gets a shock.

ALSO:
Experienced martial artists learn to change a fall into a roll and hold on to their weapon while they roll, come to their feet and charge again.

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "John wrote: "J. wrote: "I've seen this over and over: "Baron von Kreep slipped on the blood and dropped his Mauser." People who slip grab whatever they're holding tighter."

That would mean when I've slipped in the kitchen, it's never been followed up by the sound of breaking crockery... but it has.

David, if that crockery was the only weapon between you and the violent rapist who has your name already tattooed on his enormous dick, you can bet your ass that you won't drop the crockery when you slip in the kitchen...

Dropping ballast under pressure is different from dropping your only weapon under fire.

Law enforcement, at least in America, are also trained to fall and keep hold of their weapons.

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "...I wouldn't drop my sword if I slipped...HOWEVER:
If a character slips and the elbow of the gun arm cracks hard against a point surface, the 'electric shock' that travels through the arm can involuntarily open the hand and make someone drop his sword/gun/club..."

That's what I meant when I wrote: "If you want to disarm someone, please be clever about it."

However, the Baron should NOT simply have a convenient attack of clumsiness, slip and fall. You should either (1) previously plant the information that he suffers from whoopsastumbliosis, a rare genetic condition that causes him to dance the air-kazatsky under stress OR (2) have your protagonist cause the Baron to slip. Option (2) is ten times better than the lame, deus ex machina ending of option (1).

@J. Agreed!