Victorians! discussion

Welcome to the discussion about The Vicar of Bullhampton! I hope you are as excited to explore this novel as I am. It is my first Trollope and LONG overdue. I know that some of you are already devoted fans of his work, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts as we read.

Although The Vicar of Bullhampton does not have the popularity of some of his other books, it does address some important issues and themes. In my research of Trollope and the novel, I came across a critique that claims that Trollope’s works are always “analysing and looking for revealing cracks and contradictions, cruelties, blind prejudices and injustices . . . In The Vicar of Bullhampton (1868) Trollope was in fact way ahead of his time in his attitudes towards prostitution, working class people, and policing (the criminal justice system he did understand and was very sceptical about how it worked).” As a Dickens fan, I love the way he challenges unacceptable societal standards and advocates for reform and am curious to see how Trollope presents his societal critiques. I did read that Trollope included a preface in this novel, something he ordinarily disdains, to address this controversial topic and how it might affect his readers.

I’m following Lady Clementina’s excellent format for posting!

Summary:

We are introduced to the little town of Bullhampton and some of its more prominent characters in these first six chapters. It is a peaceful, traditional village, but not without its dramas. The first one we are acquainted with is a romantic one–a man passionately in love with a woman who doesn’t return his affections, much to the chagrin of her friends. The Squire, Harry Gilmore, a highly eligible bachelor, has proposed to Mary Lowther, the lovely houseguest of the Vicar’s wife, Janet Fenwick. She and her husband, Frank, are beside themselves with joy at Mary having snagged such a great catch and are dumbfounded when she decides to turn him down. In Chapter Two, while discussing this with her disapproving friend, Mary volunteers to help Janet’s child retrieve her ball from the river and falls in. To her credit (in my opinion), she does not give in to the demands that she immediately retire to bed with a cup of hot tea to overcome this shock to her system, but instead decides a change of clothes will sufficiently repair the damage of this calamity.

When Mr. Gilmore comes to call that evening, the Emma-esque Mrs. Fenwick, sees an opportunity for a moonlight stroll for the lovelorn Mr. Gilmore and Mary and escorts them all to the scene of the crime at the river. After marveling at Mary’s survival, Mr. Gilmore makes an appointment to meet with Mary the next day, and they both know it is to get an answer to his proposal. She waffles a bit more over her decision before going to bed, but upon his visit the next day, she gives him a firm refusal. Utterly crushed, he vows to renew his offer in three months, and Mary decides that her best course is to go home. She feels it only fair to remove herself from his orbit to give him perspective and a chance to start getting over her, and she also wants to test the theory that “absence makes the heart grow fonder.” Will distance ignite her love for him? She doubts it, but feels very sorry for him and truly regrets that his feelings for her are causing him so much pain. She genuinely likes him and knows that it is an excellent match, so wants to give it every possible chance.

The Vicar and his wife are disappointed and semi-angry with Mary, but she remains firm. Ironically, it is Janet herself who is preventing Mary from accepting Mr. Gilmore. Mary sees Janet’s loving marriage as her model of what she wants. Janet is completely devoted to Frank–her world revolves around him. When Mary expresses this to her friend, Janet tries to claim that these feelings only developed upon marriage, saying, “Frank was very little to me until we were man and wife” (33). Mary disputes this, reminding her that she was there, asking her, “Don’t I remember how all the world used to change for you when he was coming?” (33). Janet backtracks and changes the line to when they became engaged, assuring her friend that she would also be transformed at that moment. Mary, however, is still skeptical.

Another drama that transpires in these chapters takes place in Chapter Three, “Sam Brattle.” After their excursion to the river, Mr. Gilmore departs the Vicarage only to encounter some suspicious characters right outside the gate. One of these he recognizes as one of the town’s ne’er-do-well young men, Sam Brattle. Uneasy about their presence, he alerts the Vicar and reluctantly goes home after the Vicar assures him that he doesn’t need to stay. Armed with a stout stick, the Vicar goes out to check out the situation and ends up in a brawl with three men. He gives one a hefty clout on the back and manages to capture one of the men while the other two escape. The one he retains is Sam Brattle, who is well-known to him. Sam swears that no mischief was intended but begs the Vicar not to tell his mother. Frank doesn’t believe him but lets him go, unwilling to turn the boy over to the police. Sam has been something of a protegee of his in earlier years, but of late has been going down a bad path, shirking his work and familial duties to hang out with shady characters.

The next day, Frank goes to visit the Brattles at their mill to inform them of the incident and his concerns about Sam. He encounters Jacob Brattle, the miller and patriarch of the family, first. Jacob blames Sam’s waywardness on the influence of the Vicar in Sam’s childhood years. He is curt to the Vicar and brushes off his concerns, cutting the conversation short and leaving with a pointed lack of respect. The Vicar goes in to repeat the information to Mrs. Brattle, aware that the reception will be quite different and regretful that his words will undoubtedly cause her pain. He knows, however, that keeping it secret will ultimately not be helpful to Sam or his family.

What do you think so far? Please share any observations, questions, or predictions you might have formulated while reading.

Characters:

We meet some key characters in this week's chapters. I already like the way they are developed over this brief reading!

The Squire, Harry Gilmore - He is thirty-three years old, not wanting for sense but not an intellectual, and possessed of a comfortable income and estate. Trollope immediately declares that “he is to be our hero–or at least one of two” (4). That seems to indicate, over and above his description, that he is a good guy! Trollope goes on to describe him as the possessor of “a good heart, and a pure mind” and “generous, and desirous of being just” (4). He is considered good-looking, but not extravagantly so: “tall, strong, with dark-brown hair, and dark-brown whiskers, with small, quick grey eyes” and teeth that are uncomfortably white.

The Vicar, the Reverend Frank Fenwick - He is tall and fair-haired, balding somewhat on the crown of his head, with sparse whiskers. He gives the appearance of good breeding, and is more thoughtful and well-read than the Squire (but also loves sports). He has been at Bullhampton for six years and has a growing family with four children (and they’ve only been married for five-and-a-half years!). He cares deeply for his parishioners and his treatment of Sam reveals that he is both compassionate and merciful.

Janet Fenwick (nee Balfour) - She is described as the perfect Vicar’s wife–good-humored, attractive, pleased with her surroundings and the people around her, “with a little dash of fun,” and also knowledgable about household and community management and human nature. Finally, as mentioned before, she is utterly devoted to her husband.

Mary Lowther - She is an attractive girl: tall, with dark-brown hair and large, lustrous grey eyes. Her eyes, apparently, are extraordinarily compelling, imbuing a person with an overwhelming desire to please her. Her face is one that you could never wish to be changed, and her nose and mouth are perfect. She is now twenty-one and despite being an acknowledged beauty, some can see her dwindling into a spinster due to her reserve, stigmatizing her as “cold and repellent” (8). Her response to Harry Gilmore’s proposal reveals that she is thoughtful, empathetic, and has courage and firmness of principles.

Sam Brattle - He is the son of the miller and while once a favorite of the Vicar, he now spends his time loafing and engaging in suspicious activities. The Vicar showed him attention and took him fishing when he was a child, and Sam’s father attributes this notice as the igniting spark of Sam’s rebelliousness and deviation from the path his family has created for him.

Jacob Brattle - He is the miller. He doesn’t own the mill or the land that it is on, but it is such an established business that he feels confident in its security. He is sixty-five and had never known any life outside of what his currently is. He is married and has had twelve (or fourteen?) children, only six of which are still living. Most are comfortably established– only his son Sam and a daughter (who we’ll get to) are sources of pain. He is described as “hard-working, sober, and honest,” but also “cross-grained, litigious, moody, and tyrannical” (38). He broods over real and imagined slights and injuries to the point that he wishes maximum harm on those who cross him. He never forgives nor forgets. However, Trollope adds that he isn’t actually cruel. He wants to be, but can’t make himself pull it off. He would fire a disobedient servant with an impressive show of fury, and hope with all his heart, at that moment, that the man and his family would lose everything. By the end of the next week, he would be sending the man’s family food to help them out, stigmatizing himself as a weakling while doing it. His religion consists of a belief in God and that if he lives a good life, all will come right in the end. He has an ongoing, bitter feud with the Squire. He is “gray from head to foot . . . a silent, sad, meditative man” (41).

Mrs. Brattle - We don’t actually get to meet her face-to-face in these chapters, but we are given some information about her. She is described as a “loving, patient, self-denying, almost heavenly human being,” the likes of which one only encounters a time or two in life (39). The miller often treats her poorly but loves her dearly.

Fanny Brattle - She is the daughter who is still at home and is the joy of her mother’s heart. She is plain in appearance, to which her single state is attributed. Her personality is one of exceptional sweetness and she is beloved by the entire town.

Cary Brattle - She is Fanny’s older sister and had been the apple of her father’s eye. Beautiful, “with laughing eyes,” she is good-tempered and generous (40). Through Trollope’s delicate narration, we gather that she has been seduced by a lieutenant in the army. We’re not told why she didn’t marry the man, but we do know that Jacob almost beat him to death, which relieved his personal agony not at all. Heartbroken, he banishes his beloved from the family and no one dares mention her name.

What did you think of them?

I've just finished reading these chapters and am loving it so far. I am impressed with the Vicar but don't know what to make of Mary. Unless something changes her, I see her becoming an "old maid", which doesn't have to be terrible if you have the means to support yourself.

Marriage and Women’s Choices

I am a big proponent of NOT judging a book written in a different era by today’s standards. However, marriage WAS an acceptable occupation for a woman’s future at that time, one for which she did possess the power of choice. What do you think of her friends’ loving but constant coercion to accept a man she doesn’t want? They firmly believe that “Mary Lowther ought to be made to give herself to Harry Gilmore” (13). In that time period, should practical considerations outweigh emotional ones in marriage? Given that Janet is so happy in her marriage, why would she NOT give Mary’s feelings more weight?

Mentorship and Childhood Influences

Trollope notes that “a gentleman’s favorite in a country village, when of Sam Brattle’s age, is very apt to be spoiled by the kindness shown to him. From how the situation and the Vicar’s interactions with Sam are described, is the Vicar’s influence at least partially responsible for Sam’s behavior? Is Jacob’s attitude toward the Vicar justified?

Immorality, Inflexibility, Christianity

We are told the sad story of Cary Brattle, a girl with so much promise, whose life is completely derailed by a rash decision, a moment of weakness, a falter away from the teachings of her upbringing. This results in what seems to be a permanent severance from her entire life and family. She is now cast upon the world with no money, no protection, and a sullied name. What choices are available to her for survival?

It will be interesting to see how Trollope deals with this storyline. Since the protagonist of the book is a vicar, that puts our storyline squarely in the Christian arena. It’s interesting to note the Christian ideals of mercy and forgiveness and how they are applied to fallen women. How does Trollope’s presentation of Cary’s situation affect its impact on the reader? How does this support or undermine society’s view (at that time) of this issue?

I liked these chapters a great deal and look forward to the rest of the The Vicar. One of my first responses to the book was to welcome the omniscient third person narrator, who provides such a contrast to the unforthcoming narrative style of Lucy in Villette. By the end of Chapter 6, I had no doubt about the trustworthiness of the narrator in this novel. The setting and the characters are presented with detailed thoroughness. (I know how far I’d have to travel if I wanted to compare Bullhampton’s beautiful church to Salisbury Cathedral.) I particularly liked learning about Jacob Brattle’s family and home in Chapters 5 and 6. I look forward to the development of the stories of his two wayward children, Sam and Carry, her father’s favorite. Carry is most intriguing to me at this point; her father has cursed her and cast her out “so that his house will no longer be polluted by her vileness,” and yet it seems to me that he still grieves deeply for her. I am less curious about how Mary Lowther will resolve her predicament, and Squire Gilmore has yet to come alive for me. All in all, these chapters make a satisfying introduction to what promises to be a great story told to us by a calm and wise narrator.

Rosemarie wrote: "I've just finished reading these chapters and am loving it so far. I am impressed with the Vicar but don't know what to make of Mary. Unless something changes her, I see her becoming an "old maid",..."

I'm really enjoying it, as well! At this point, I just can't predict what will happen to Mary. I don't see her changing her mind about Mr. Gilmore, but another suitor could still show up. I would be surprised that a girl described in such lavish terms would ever be wanting for admirers!

Diane wrote: "I liked these chapters a great deal and look forward to the rest of the The Vicar. One of my first responses to the book was to welcome the omniscient third person narrator, who provides such a con..."

I agree that the third-person narrator is much more trustworthy and is providing such interesting details about the setting and characters. I'm also very eager to learn more about the Brattle family situation. Clearly, the whole family is hurting from her loss, and Trollope seems to be presenting it in a way that makes the reader more sympathetic to their pain instead of applauding their decision. Where is Cary now? How long ago did this happen? Did her indiscretion result in a child? There are still a lot of questions to be answered.

Jacob sounds like he is going to be a complex character. On one hand, he is so surly and apparently intolerant, but it seems that it is more a facade than anything. If I had to make a prediction, I wouldn't be surprised if he relents and allows Cary to return later in the book. Given the information about his inability to remain steadfast in his grievances, and that she is his favorite, I can see him not being able to continue in his anger.

I am curious to see what happens to Mary--I think it is pretty brave of her to resist the pressure to accept the Squire. And I'm also curious to see how Gilmore turns out to be a hero!

Cindy wrote: "Diane wrote: "I liked these chapters a great deal and look forward to the rest of the The Vicar. One of my first responses to the book was to welcome the omniscient third person narrator, who provi..."

He’ll have to mature a lot to fill that role, I think—of course he’s got 500 or so more pages to do just that. And I agree that Mary is courageous to withstand the pressure to marry someone she doesn’t love. She seems to me to have more “character” than the Squire.

Trollope usually spends a long time in the early chapters setting the tone and introducing the characters. Chapter 1 of Bullhapton is surprisingly lively.

I’m so happy to be reading Trollope again, I love his descriptions and the voice of the narrator.

I am interested in what will happen to Mary, and admire her decision so far. I feel Janet and Frank are thinking more about what they would want than what Mary needs - they are well matched so have an idealised view of marriage and they want their two close friends to marry each other and make a nice foursome. The financial position of the Squire is important too. Mary is being more clear sighted and honest, but the pressure on her from her friends and society in general will be considerable.

I liked the descriptions of the Brattle family too, lower down the social scale (though wealthy enough to have servants) but with their own view of respectability and expectations of behaviour. Jacob is rather uncompromising and stern, yet he is fond of his wife and works hard. He has grudges against both the Squire and the vicar, so it will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Cindy wrote: "In that time period, should practical considerations outweigh emotional ones in marriage? Given that Janet is so happy in her marriage, why would she NOT give Mary’s feelings more weight?"

Perhaps it is prejudice on MY part, but it seems to me that a vicar and, by extension, a woman who would be happy in the role of vicar's wife, would be much more commonly conservative minded and wedded to the status quo.

Janet Fenwick, most fortunate in the fact that, despite her having followed a typical Victorian route to marriage, lucked into a wildly successful and eminently happy marriage from the outset (or, if Mary Lowther is to be believed), from even earlier than that. Given that experience, Mrs Fenwick is notoriously ill-equipped to give appropriate counsel to someone like Mary Lowther who is two things at once, first, she is quite certain that she does not love Mr Gilmore and, secondly, she is progressive in the sense that she feels that lack of love is adequate reason for refusing a marriage that in all other respects is outrageously lucky for her in the more typical Victorian sense.

I wonder if Mary will stick to her convictions when she moves away??

I'm also left wondering if Mary has the quieter, hidden agenda of getting away from Mr and Mrs Fenwick so they won't take insult and be hurt by Mary's refusal of the man they consider to be such a great catch!

Cindy wrote: "What do you think so far? Please share any observations, questions, or predictions you might have formulated while reading."

This is my first experience with Trollope and I'm absolutely bowled over by how much I've enjoyed the first six chapters. While his style is clearly still identifiably rooted in the 19th century, his narration is much less prone to the verbiage and outrageous excess that Dickens (and to a lesser extent, Collins) were wont to use. In six chapters, we've met a number of characters, had them well described, and made significant advances on the basis for the plot. Dickens, on the other hand, might not have finished describing his characters in six chapters let alone made any advances on a plot, LOL!

I just started really digging into Trollope this past year and he is quickly becoming one of my favorite Victorian writers. I’ve been absolutely LOVING the Palliser’s series and I jumped on the chance to join in on this group read as a break from that.

Six chapters in and I am giddy with excitement to see how he will handle Cary and the topic of prostitution. I have not yet encountered this theme in any of his other works.

Also, right off the bat I’m inclined to love Mary. I’m all for Victorian characters that push the envelope of societal norms. Mary not automatically agreeing to this marriage (that looks 19th century perfect) is a big thumbs down for an unwed woman, Hence the shunning from the Vicar. I, on the other hand, was like you go girl! I am very excited to see how this plays out. I hope she stays true to herself.

There was one quote I highlight of Mary’s thoughts in considering the Squire… “she owed him everything, except herself.”

In my opinion, this is Trollope's way of expressing the societal progress occurring in younger generations of women. They're learning their self worth and no longer viewing themselves duty bound to accept the first reasonable offer of marriage as everyone thinks they should do. The Fenwicks (whom I do like) represent the push back of society on progressive thinking, always wanting to err to the safe and known path of life.

I also thought Mrs Brattle was the perfect contrasting character to Mary. She gives everything to her family to be the most perfect wife, so much that she won't even take a few minutes to herself to use her fancy parlour.

Can't wait to meet Cary!!

Oh how I love Victorian lit, lol.

Ruffians!!!

Paul wrote: "I'm also left wondering if Mary has the quieter, hidden agenda of getting away from Mr and Mrs Fenwick so they won't take insult and be hurt by Mary's refusal of the man they consider to be such a great catch!..."

I wouldn't be surprised if that plays a part in her decision, even if subconsciously. It seems like things might be a bit tense at the Vicarage if she continues to resist their advice, especially once they face Mr. Gilmore in his crushed state. I would imagine the pressure and disapproval would only intensify, along with the guilt of facing Mr. Gilmore's pain.

I think, as Pamela pointed out previously, that the Fenwicks are just so excited at the thought of their good friends creating that comfortable foursome with them. They can foresee years of enjoyable social events ahead, being able to maintain their close individual relationships with their dear friends but also able to count them as their go-to couple companions, as well. They are also vested in seeing their loved ones receive the best--he with a great beauty as a wife, she with a man who offers position and wealth. They are too caught up with how perfectly it all fits with their needs to admit that it apparently is not so perfect for Mary. They just can't let the dream go yet!

I also wonder if Janet is deliberately rewriting history in her version of her courtship experience, or if that is how, in her excitement over Mary's opportunity, she remembers it happening. Does she think that if she convinces Mary that this is what happened to her that she will set Mary up psychologically to fulfill the expectation? Otherwise, what a letdown for Mary as she waits in vain for the magic to strike!

Paul wrote: "In six chapters, we've met a number of characters, had them well described, and made significant advances on the basis for the plot. Dickens, on the other hand, might not have finished describing his characters in six chapters let alone made any advances on a plot, LOL!..."

This is my first experience with Trollope, as well, and so far it has been delightful. According to Renee's previous post, this fast-paced beginning is a little out of the ordinary, so I guess Bullhampton is a great choice in that regard for us newbies! I hasten to add that I am also a great fan of Dickens and am more than happy to experience his verbal circumlocutions in presenting us with his unforgettable characters and observations on the human condition. It sounds like, in future Trollope novels, that might be more in keeping with what we find. I do believe that both gentlemen make it worth the wait!

Kelly wrote: "There was one quote I highlight of Mary’s thoughts in considering the Squire… 'she owed him everything, except herself.' In my opinion, this is Trollope's way of expressing the societal progress occurring in younger generations of women. They're learning their self worth and no longer viewing themselves duty bound to accept the first reasonable offer of marriage as everyone thinks they should do. The Fenwicks (whom I do like) represent the push back of society on progressive thinking, always wanting to err to the safe and known path of life...."

I love this! Mary's decision does seem to express more independence and self-actualization than has heretofore been expected (or desired!) in a woman, as does her refusal to bend to societal pressure. She clearly has not bought into the popular opinion that girls should be guided by those older and wiser in the selection of a mate, or that it is a girl's duty to marry as well as possible, regardless of personal inclination. Again, I love the irony of Janet's own marriage becoming the biggest impediment to achieving her goal of this great alliance for her friend! She herself is the biggest obstacle to obtaining her wish! If Mary had not seen, by observing Janet, how wonderful and fulfilling it is to be deeply in love with one's spouse, she might have been more open to the idea of settling for strong liking.

I've just finished this section and very much enjoy all your comments. I have a somewhat different take on the Fenwick's urging of Mary to accept the Squire's proposal. From our description of Mary, I suspect that, with no fortune, not a lot of opportunity to go into society, and a somewhat cold demeanour, her chance of marrying well (or at all) may be considered small. We know that the Squire is a good and kind man with a good income, and that she would be living close to her friends. While a love match is the ideal, I suspect that in Victorian times they were few and far between, and that many so-called love matches burned out quickly as they were based on physical attraction and not much else (The Bennett parents in Pride and Prejudice are a clear example of this). Many societies around the world view arranged marriages as the norm, and they have often been successful. Even Trollope's Palliser series has quite a successful one (view spoiler)[ in Plantagenet and Glencora (hide spoiler)]. I don't think Janet is being dishonest in saying her friend could come to love the Squire over time, as often happens during dating/courtship/with greater knowledge of a person.

I think Mary's choice to leave is the right one, not because her friends are being unkind or pushing her, but to give herself and Harry some time apart to see if either of their feelings change (and also because, if she truly feels she cannot marry Harry but does hope to find love, she will need to go somewhere she can meet another possible husband).

Trollope clearly supports a love match, but he also has many characters who never find love-usually because the one they love won't have them/loves someone else-and he also shows in other books that, for many women, the choice is between marrying someone they don't love or living in poverty and reduced circumstances. I do think he is very sympathetic to the challenges faced by Victorian gentlewomen, and perhaps in this novel he will also address the challenges faced by those of lower social status as well.

This will be one of the last Trollope novels I will be reading for the first time and I am looking forward to the opportunity of discussing it with everyone here.

I agree with Frances’ assessment of both Mary and of Trollope himself. I didn’t expect Mary to say ‘yes’ despite the urging of her well meaning friends. Mary knows that the vicar and his wife wants what is best for her but is strong enough to prevent herself being railroaded into marriage. She still has aspirations that she might love someone and is rightly giving herself the opportunity for that to occur. Leaving the door open for the squire to ask again seems a courtesy given to a powerful man rather than any hesitation on Mary’s part. However, whether or not she changes her mind remains to be seen.

I was somewhat taken aback by the violence of the vicar in defending his apricots. His ‘lifesaver,’ a heavy club finished in iron or steel, would have caused much damage to a ‘ruffian’s’ skull as it did to Sam’s arm. After that incident I developed a different impression of the vicar as someone who showed kindness but also wouldn’t hesitate to meet out punishments to those who deserved them.

I am still unsure about Sam and the Rattle family regarding the amount of sympathy they deserve. The whole family seem to have lost their way and Jacob Brattle seems to blame everybody else except himself. His attitude doesn’t help at all but there could be a lot of truth in his arguments and the reasons behind their troubles could be out of their control.

Trev wrote: "She still has aspirations that she might love someone and is rightly giving herself the opportunity for that to occur. Leaving the door open for the squire to ask again seems a courtesy given to a powerful man rather than any hesitation on Mary’s part. However, whether or not she changes her mind remains to be seen...."

I love reading about them, but I am so glad I didn't live in Victorian times! In addition to my inability to exist without indoor plumbing, air conditioning, and antibiotics, the pressure of deciding who to marry must have been crushing! It's always a gamble, but the stakes were so much higher then.

It's a gamble for Mary because it sounds like she doesn't have a comfortable fortune of her own to live on if she never marries. If another man of comparable means doesn't show up and offer for her, she may ultimately be forced to marry someone else she doesn't love for a lifestyle considerably lower than that she would have had with the Squire. However, she is apparently very attractive and charming and only 21, so not quite on the shelf yet. I don't really think she is going to suddenly wake up and find herself in love with Mr. Gilmore, but I think she keeps the door open not just out of liking for him but also on the off-chance that she will. She's not willing to put the last nail in that coffin until she tests the impact of distance on her feelings.

I agree with you about the Brattle family. It's hard to form a strong opinion about people you know so little about. At this point, his scapegoating of the Vicar for Sam's behavior seems unjustified, but perhaps he has his reasons, even if they are the result of his own misunderstanding.

This is my first foray into Trollope - and I am fascinated by his precise, "modern" language. Not a single word too much, nothing flowery, prosy, moralising.

As a non-native, I particularly appreciate the short, matter-of-fact introduction to the "system" of the village in terms of land ownership, tenants, the living, and so on. (The fact that Trollope gives such information could mean that he wrote for an urban audience who were no more as familiar with English rural conditions as, for example, Jane Austen's readers, who were simply expected to know the social position of, e.g., the Bennetts or the Woodhouses in their respective communities)

What I liked most was the episode with Mary falling into the water - or rather, with everyone's reactions to it. It is this trick of "showing, not saying" that tells us so much about characters. There's Mary, taking it lightly and laughing. She just goes to change her wet clothes and that was it. And there are Janet - and Gilmore - who make a fuss about it and try to "make" her sick and frightened, wholly in line with the Victorian view of women as frail and sensitive. Mary's reaction does not strike us 21st-century-people as extraordinary, because it feels normal. It was not normal then, but way ahead of its time. I wonder if, for female readers of the period, Mary was thus introduced as a somewhat larger-than-life heroine, acting in a way that many of them secretly wished they could, or should, act themselves - in the refusal of Gilmore's proposal, too, of course. And I hope Trollope keeps this character consistently strong and "modern" throughout the following chapters.

sabagrey wrote: " I wonder if, for female readers of the period, Mary was thus introduced as a somewhat larger-than-life heroine, acting in a way that many of them secretly wished they could, or should, act themselves - in the refusal of Gilmore's proposal, too, of course. "

A very interesting comment that I hadn't really considered as I was reading. As you say, Mary would have been looked at either somewhat askance or perhaps with considerable envy and admiration. The reaction from female readers of the day would not likely have been ambivalent.

Agreed, this is definitely signalling that Mary is an independent and strong young woman, and not one to suffer fools gladly, which may be why Trollope describes many as finding her cold or aloof and at risk of never marrying.

sabagrey wrote: "And I hope Trollope keeps this character consistently strong and "modern" throughout the following chapters...."

Glad to have another reader new to Trollope! I am also interested (and hopeful) that Mary retains her strength of character. I'm waiting to see whether she is going to be rewarded or punished for her deviation from behavior expected from a Victorian miss.

Cindy wrote: I'm waiting to see whether she is going to be rewarded or punished for her deviation from behavior expected from a Victorian miss. "

I'm new to this one so just speculating (not spoiling!) but Trollope does not usually punish women for being independent or strong so I am hoping for a happy ending for Mary, although he doesn't necessarily give a conventional happy ending either!

I have found the inner dialogue of some of the characters to be really interesting. In particular, Mary’s realizations that she should love Gilmore and that he is excellent husband material, but that she just can’t seem to love him and can’t see herself loving him if she doesn’t already.

I’ve personally experienced this myself when much younger where I’d be better off loving one person rather than another but it’s just not there. It’s the elusive, inexplicable characteristics of love that equate to more than respect, admiration and compatibility and make love still so undefinable. I love the commonality of themes present in these older books that are still so resonant, it’s a great portal to the past as well as equalizer.

Frances wrote: "Trollope does not usually punish women for being independent or strong..."

That's excellent news, Frances! I am hoping that this book is the first in what will probably be many years (given his body of work!) of reading Trollope. I have heard so much about how wonderful his Barsetshire and Palliser series are. I am really looking forward to them!

Just wanted to add a further thought. I can understand how a lot of our focus has been on Mary, who seems outside the mould of the usual Victorian heroine, and how her story will unfold.

But I’m also intrigued by what part Frank Fenwick will play - after all the book is named after him - and hoping he will be involved in the stories of Carry and Sam Brattle. He’s not the quiet mild mannered vicar type, nor the hypocrite type, so he may also be breaking the mould. He’s quick to take on the ruffians in his garden without wanting Gilmore to get involved and gives as good as he gets (even more so!) . He’s obviously had previous dealings with Sam, and is prepared to confront Jacob despite knowing he’ll be accused by him.

Pamela wrote: "Just wanted to add a further thought. I can understand how a lot of our focus has been on Mary, who seems outside the mould of the usual Victorian heroine, and how her story will unfold.

But I’m ..."
I agree with you about the importance of the Vicar, in fact I think of him as the main character. He does seem, as you say, a different sort of vicar, and so far, he is involved in all the plot strands. And there’s plenty of room for his character to grow and learn. I also liked Trev’s comment and assessment of the Vicar in an earlier post.

Pamela wrote: "But I’m also intrigued by what part Frank Fenwick will play - after all the book is named after him - and hoping he will be involved in the stories of Carry and Sam Brattle. ..."

Very true, Pamela! When I started the book, I became so engrossed in the story of Mary's proposal dilemma that I was startled when I remembered the title of the book. Trollope does tell us right out of the gate that Harry Gilmore is one of two heroes in the story, so my money is on the Vicar as the other! As you pointed out, his qualities so far lean in that direction. We shall see . . . .

I am definitely Team Mary. Liking, even admiring, someone is far from feeling you can make a life with them. Plus, in this time period, once you agreed to marry you were committed. Breaking off an engagement was social suicide, condemning yourself to spinsterhood. Even if you had another offer, you would likely be shunned by society.

I am concerned for Carry. “Tainted” women don’t usually survive in most Victorian novels, even when the author means to show the hypocrisy and cruelty of how they are treated, the usually end up dead ... often to appease the public.

I wonder how much the miller is projecting his own behavior with his favorite daughter onto the vicar. Or how much the behavior of the two offspring is a bid to escape the family home/expectations. Trollope is just warming up so there are sure to be twists and revelations ahead.

Just a warning about the way he uses the narrative voice. You can’t assume that the narrator is telling you everything. Or that the narrator is giving you Trollope’s opinion. Keep an eye out for tongue in cheek observations. For those who are new to Trollope, I can only say he is wonderful and wry and completely worth the effort.

If I am not wrong, this is the book I proposed. I am really enjoying it and I am happy to see you are, too. After
Bleak House, my last group reading, this seems to be a refreshing book, easier to read and with a faster pace, as someone has already noticed.

Renee wrote: "Just a warning about the way he uses the narrative voice. You can’t assume that the narrator is telling you everything. Or that the narrator is giving you Trollope’s opinion. Keep an eye out for tongue in cheek observations....."

Thanks for the tip, Renee! That's why I'm glad to have some Trollope proficients in our group. I, too, will be surprised if Cary's story has a happy ending. But maybe so! If Trollope is intent on showing the injustice of society's treatment of these women, maybe he's brave enough to take it all the way.

It's too soon to tell yet, but I can't decide if the miller is willfully foisting the blame for Sam's choices onto the Vicar just to avoid taking any responsibility himself, or if he is actually deceived in what passed between the Vicar and Sam on those expeditions. The narrator tells us how the Vicar encourages Sam to work hard and do his chores and respect his future path, but the miller is not present at these events. It's possible that Sam paints a different picture for his father and it is he using the Vicar as an excuse for his behavior. Just a theory (probably born from working with teens and learning how those little scamps operate)! :)

Cindy wrote: "Paul wrote: "I'm also left wondering if Mary has the quieter, hidden agenda of getting away from Mr and Mrs Fenwick so they won't take insult and be hurt by Mary's refusal of the man they consider ..."

I think Janet is definitely rewriting history to make Mary feel better and have it seem like the match would be desirabke. I think ultimately Mary goes along with this rationalization because she seeks to go away so that she can perhaps become more fond of her suitor. She is trying to convince her heart to go along with what she is being told is the practical and desirable route for her life.

I am thoroughly enjoying all the comments. It thrills me to see such enthusiasm for Mr. Trollope's novel and his writing. I have been an avid fan for years.

I am also a big fan of illustrations, and the first edition was illustrated by Henry Woods. I know it is a common feeling for many readers that they don't want to see a picture--they want to form their own picture from the text. But give these a chance. They are works of art. And illustrations are not exactly "pictures"--there is usually no lasting impression of the appearance of the character. Rather, they often supplement the text, giving the artist's impression of the character, much like we do when we comment on a character in our discussions. All these are included in the Gutenberg edition, and are no longer copyrighted.



"You should give him an answer, dear, one way or another."

From ch. 6: "I thought I should catch you idle just at this moment,"

I really like this interpretation of Frank Fenwick. He is a bit obstreperous for a vicar. His heart is in the right place, but he likes his own way.

Ginny wrote: "I am also a big fan of illustrations, and the first edition was illustrated by Henry Woods. I know it is a common feeling for many readers that they don't want to see a picture--they want to form their own picture from the text. But give these a chance. They are works of art...."

Thank you for these, Ginny! I also love to see the illustrations, especially those done around the time of publication. Just like the text, they are a window into that other age that we are all so fascinated with. These are beautiful, indeed!

Molly wrote: "I love the commonality of themes present in these older books that are still so resonant, it’s a great portal to the past as well as equalizer..."

That is so true, Molly! I can really relate to that as an English teacher. Kids are so quick to only see the superficial aspects of the characters, but our job is to teach them that fashions and language change, but human nature pretty much stays the same. Unfortunately, there is a movement afoot in English classes today to turn away from classics and move more toward modern texts. A teacher made a post lamenting having to teach The Great Gatsby because "the kids wouldn't be able to relate to him." Oh, sure, I thought (with a huge eye-roll), how would a teenager be able to relate to someone who desperately wanted to belong to an exclusive clique, a group of cool people that he could never hope to join? What teenager could understand feeling that who he was is not good enough and trying to create a persona that would make him "cool?"

Not only can kids see this in classic literature, but it helps them understand the timelessness of the human condition. It definitely reinforces their understanding that they are normal and not in this struggle alone! I applaud bringing modern texts into the classroom and mixing it up a bit, but don't discard the classics!

I agree, Cindy. I always tell kids that they behave as if they were the first people in the world, while everything they have to cope with has already happened to someone, they only have to read old books!

Ginny wrote:

I am also a big fan of illustrations,…………..

"From ch. 6: "I thought I should catch you idle just at this moment,"

I really like this interpretation of Frank Fenwick. He is a bit obstreperous for a vicar. His heart is in the right place, but..."

Thanks for the illustrations Ginny. They always add to my imaginative appreciation of the characters rather than detract from it.

In the illustration both Frank and Jacob exhibit the type of expressions I would have expected during their conversation. Jacob’s ‘idle’ slouch and Frank’s polite but combative stance speak volumes about their understanding of each other.

As for Mary in the illustration with Janet, she is giving nothing away, yet there seems to be an invisible wall between the two women dividing their hopes and fears.

As much as I like the illustration of Mary dangling from a branch, I would have preferred to see an illustration of her having fallen in the water and laughing at herself to show her lighter, less serious side.

There are a series of interesting articles about Trollope and his illustrators on the Victorian Web. I particularly like the articles about his relationship with John Everett Millais.

For those new to Trollope, these articles refer to other novels and some contain spoilers for Framley Parsonage, Orley Farm, The Small House at Allington , Phineas Finn, Kept in the Dark, The Claverings, The Way We Live Now, Can you forgive Her? He knew He Was Right and The Last Chronicle of Barset.

https://www.victorianweb.org/authors/...

*Like*
I completely agree with you, Cindy!

Renee wrote: "*Like*
I completely agree with you, Cindy!"

Daniela wrote: "I agree, Cindy. I always tell kids that they behave as if they were the first people in the world, while everything they have to cope with has already happened to someone, they only have to read old books..."

Fist bump!! :)

Trev wrote: "There are a series of interesting articles about Trollope and his illustrators on the Victorian Web. I particularly like the articles about his relationship with John Everett Millais...."

Thanks so much for sharing the link, Trev! I always look forward to the resources you contribute to the discussions. They add another layer of depth to our appreciation of the author's artistry, just as Ginny's illustrations have.

Late with this... I read Rachel Ray and The Warden, and they were both only 3 stars for me (which is more like okay in my ranking), so I´m looking forward to trying another of Trollope´s novels.
Thanks all for your comments, illustrations and links! I think I can´t add more than that I also like Mary, especially after her fall into the water and also because of her longing for a loving marriage.
What I noticed again - and it´s common in Victorian novels - is the description of people by their outer appearances which are obviously supposed to show their inner values.

Michaela wrote: "What I noticed again - and it´s common in Victorian novels - is the description of people by their outer appearances which are obviously supposed to show their inner values.
"

Agreed, although the hero isn't necessarily the most handsome man in Trollope (which some suggest is because Trollope himself wasn't the most handsome man) and often the heroine is not perfect nor the most beautiful woman.

That´s interesting, thanks Frances!