Goodreads Librarians Group discussion

Does anyone know if it’s possible (and if so how) to get an ISBN from an audiobook you’ve currently borrowed via Libby?

E.g., I’m currently listening to https://share.libbyapp.com/title/4942008 and wanted to make sure that I’m marking it as the right edition here, but I can’t find anywhere in Libby’s interface where it lists the ISBN (on the linked page I spotted a <meta> tag for "book:isbn" but its content is an empty string, so not much help).

Usually I would go to the library that I’m borrowing it through and find it there for such additional details, but… in this case, it seems like they don’t have the audiobook registered somehow.

Libby’s own help is, uh, not very helpful at all: https://help.libbyapp.com/en-us/searc...

It is my understanding that we cannot use images or data from Libby/Overdrive. Per Libby/Overdrive terms and conditions, their data can't be used on other sites. They often have exclusive ISBNs.

That is interesting. I had also noticed that Libby does't include the ISBN in their interface. I use Libby for most of my reading and scroll back to the title page for the edition info.

I am not an audiobook listener, so I hadn't encountered the issue. Out of curiosity, I went to my library website and looked up a couple of books. My library uses Hoopla for most of the audiobooks but I found a few that said "check out with Libby". The publisher for all of them was Books on Tape. If you go to their site and search for a title the buy section has the isbn in small print under the price. It is an extra step, but it would help you find it. I don't know if all the Libby audiobooks are from that publisher, but the technique might still work.
here is the example. https://www.booksontape.com/search/?q...
you could save their homepage to your favorites.https://www.booksontape.com/

If that fails, do we just add it without an identifying number?

All the audiobooks are not from the same publisher, but yes you can add the one from that publisher if it is there.

I would not add a book from a source we cannot use, with or without a number.

Freso wrote: "Does anyone know if it’s possible (and if so how) to get an ISBN from an audiobook you’ve currently borrowed via Libby?

E.g., I’m currently listening to https://share.libbyapp.com/title/4942008 an..."

No Freso, you can't see the ISBN of an audiobook from within the Libby app or on the Libbyapp website. To find that info you need to get it from the specific library website you borrowed it from.

If you are listening to the library edition digital audiobook (English) narrated by Moira Quirk then the ISBNs (13/10) are 9781980004899, 1980004897. The (English) retail edition digital audiobook's ISBN 13 is 9781980004905 for contrast.

Freso wrote: "Usually I would go to the library that I’m borrowing it through and find it there for such additional details, but… in this case, it seems like they don’t have the audiobook registered somehow."

I've never seen that happen...if you don't mind sharing I'm curious what library that might be?

@Emily, GR chooses to not use user provided metadata from Overdrive, there is nothing legally preventing them from doing so. The policy is based on misinformation/misunderstanding of what is covered under US copyright law. Any website's TOS notwithstanding, metadata that is nothing more than facts is not copyrightable. Book titles, Author names, Publisher names, Publication dates, ISBNs, page counts, series names etc. Case law is absolutely clear on this. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fede...

What can be legally enforced is wholesale scraping/duplication of a database where the database as a whole is protected if it meets the creativity threshold and is not merely an aggregation of factual data.

Emily wrote: "They often have exclusive ISBNs"

Libby/Overdrive do not have exclusive ISBNs. Bigger publishers often separate out their distribution channels into Retail/Library and library editions get a unique ISBN assigned by the publisher (and a much higher price tag) that is not available in retail markets. These particular editions get purchased by libraries and are delivered to patrons via vendors like Overdrive, Hoopla etc but are nothing more than an indicator of the distribution channel they came from. Overdrive has no claim over the ISBN and in reality is doing nothing more than displaying the library metadata given to them for the purpose of lending the title.

That is interesting to know. Is there a source where we can find library edition ISBNs?

Julie wrote: "That is interesting to know. Is there a source where we can find library edition ISBNs?"

The publisher website and library websites themselves. Assigning a different ISBN to the same format, like digital audiobook, for different distribution channels is entirely optional but very common for publishers like Recorded Books and many other RBmedia subsidiaries. Even self published authors using platforms like Findaway Voices can assign two ISBN's to their single audiobook if they want, one for the retail channel and one for the library channel.

Here's an example, the library edition of "Did I Ever Tell You This?" by Sam Neill that I borrowed from NYPL has an ISBN 13 of 9798889566052. You can see the metadata via this link -> https://nypl.na2.iiivega.com/search/c... (click 'see all editions and other details' then the i under Details)

This record doesn't exist on GR. If I were to buy the exact same unabridged digital audiobook from Kobo, a retail outlet, the ISBN is 9798889566069. Also not on GR but that's not surprising given how lacking GR is with respect to audio editions in general.

The irony in this example is that I could get the library edition I borrowed added to GR under existing policy (because Library metadata is an acceptable source) but I couldn't get the retail edition added because the publisher website doesn't have all the details (https://rbmediaglobal.com/did-i-ever-...) and none of the retail sources are "acceptable", Kobo, Scribd, audiobookstore.com, etc. because GR mistakenly believes that facts are protected by copyright, LOL.


p.s. Unless I could get a GR employee to do it since apparently bad policy is optional for them? e.g. see this request and the resulting newly added edition here -> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1... sourced from Chirp...
I've been watching this request for a while since I knew there was no data source for the request that GR deems acceptable. Author just links to the non-Amazon retail sites, B & N, Kobo, Apple & Chirp. Maybe some GR employees are better informed than former ones eh? :D

Tal wrote: "The policy is based on misinformation/misunderstanding of what is covered under US copyright law. Any website's TOS notwithstanding, metadata that is nothing more than facts is not copyrightable. Book titles, Author names, Publisher names, Publication dates, ISBNs, page counts, series names etc. Case law is absolutely clear on this."

This. As far as I know only the images presented are covered by copyright (and for some, even that is questionable).

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "This. As far as I know only the images presented are covered by copyright (and for some, even that is questionable)"

Cover images and blurbs are the only book metadata that can fall under copyright protection and then the protection is granted to the creator, not the distributor/vendor/bookseller, which have no standing to grant or restrict use. They are middlemen. The bottom line is publishers & authors/creators hold copyright over their covers and blurbs (no matter what website they are diplayed on) but as they are marketing material at their core, their entire purpose is to be disseminated far and wide by as many as possible so long as they aren't being misrepresented, e.g. applied to the wrong book. GR relies on Fair Use doctrine to upload covers, not explicit permission from copyright holders. If they didn't they would be forced to remove old covers at the copyright holder's request, which they refuse to do and don't have to do because of Fair Use. So bizarre that they rely on Fair use to keep covers but pretend it doesn't exist to obtain them, LOL!

Agreed. I think the cover policy with WorldCat, for example, is because many times their record is for two or more editions. Goodreads is very strict about covers matching editions/ISBNs.

But the covers from Overdrive and other digital services are for one edition/ISBN only. Still, we have the policy which librarians dare not violate.

So that no one thinks I am offering legal advice: I am basing my opinion on previous discussions and moderator rulings in this group along with what I know about Overdrive and what their TOS says and what I know about Goodreads policy. I am not at all saying that I think it would be illegal, part of fair use or not, would or wouldn’t hold up in court, etc.
I was offering that opinion in response to the questions posed.

The reason I said exclusive ISBNs is exactly because they are often assigned to just the Overdrive version of the book. You know I know how it works. I was offering my opinion to help by saying something we have heard over and over, “Overdrive is not a source we can use for data.”

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Agreed. I think the cover policy with WorldCat, for example, is because many times their record is for two or more editions. Goodreads is very strict about covers matching editions/ISBNs.

But the..."

Worldcat covers, often don't reflect the actual covers, and that is why we can't use them for covers.

I was having trouble a few years ago using covers from Worldcat (when we were still allowed to) and found that some books had very wrong covers, like from 20 yrs difference. Asked Rivka what to do and that was when the policy came down about not using them for covers. Could've been a coincidence but it was only about 2 days after I sought her advice.

Worldcat thread from Rivka - & as one poster says there, the Worldcat images were too small to be any use anyway.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Worldcat thread from Rivka - & as one poster says there, the Worldcat images were too small to be any use anyway.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/......"

Thanks for finding that Carol :)

Emily wrote: "The reason I said exclusive ISBNs is exactly because they are often assigned to just the Overdrive version of the book. You know I know how it works. I was offering my opinion to help by saying som..."

I actually don't know that you know how it works which is why I quoted your statement and replied. Just like I know that Jaclyn does not know how it works or there wouldn't be comments like this being made. Eventually if something false is repeated enough times it becomes dogma to those who don't know any better. It's like the old game of Telephone on steroids. I'm not critiquing volunteers who are operating under bad information. I'm critiquing GR policy that is based on bad information.

Publishers that choose to assign a different ISBN for titles distributed to libraries/schools make that ISBN available for purchase to any of those distributors, be they Overdrive, Axis 360, Cloud Library, Hoopla, etc. The ISBN is still owned by and registered to the publisher, not Overdrive. Nothing about it is exclusive to OD or assigned to just OD. It's a Library edition (meaning not sold in retail channels), not an OD Library edition.

Another real world example to demonstrate: ISBN 9781980032649 is the one assigned by Recorded Books to the library audiobook edition of Danielle Steel's "Palazzo" which you can find on Overdrive here -> https://kyunbound.overdrive.com/boone...
on Axis360 here -> https://jeffco.axis360.baker-taylor.c...
and on Cloud Library here -> https://ebook.yourcloudlibrary.com/li...

What Does Copyright Protect?
From the US Copyright office (emphasis below added by me)
(https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/fa...

What does copyright protect?
Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section "What Works Are Protected."

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "What Does Copyright Protect?
From the US Copyright office (emphasis below added by me)
(https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/fa...

What does copyright protect?
Copyright, a form of intell..."

Which is exactly why some libraries started to advertise the fact that their bibliographic metadata falls under a CC0 attribution (https://creativecommons.org/publicdom....) Mostly larger libraries with APIs for extracting the info. You rarely see any explicit PD attribution from smaller libraries (with no mechanism to share it at scale) because they understand they can't copyright the book metadata (facts) in the first place and can't put any conditions on how/where it is used.

A very well written (in layman's terms) article for understanding book covers, copyright and Fair Use Doctrine that I'd encourage every GR employee and user to read:

"Technically, publishing the book cover on your blog or using it in a library catalog is a reproduction of the copyright-protected work. If permission or a license has not been secured, then you have violated the copyright.

I can hear you whining about this already. Stop it. I said technically. In most cases, the risk of being sued for copyright infringement for using the book cover under these circumstances is low. Book covers promote the sale of a book and generate discussion. Publishers and authors love when you use their book covers (provided you are not using the cover in a disparaging way). Using book covers with reviews or a catalog is free and easy marketing for the author and/or publisher, especially with reviews. Whether negative or positive, a review is still visibility. Do you think Goodreads has permission for all those thumbnails? Of course not."
source - https://www.sidebarsaturdays.com/2020...

The manual says that libraries are ok for sources.
Overdrive, Libby and Hoopla are library apps. The books are coming to the reader through their library account. Looking at the title page of an ebook is no different than looking at a print library book in hand.

While we are on the subject of inconsistant policy. Goodreads is owned by Amazon and other booksellers including B&N are not acceptable data sources. However NOOK is on the format list. Since NOOK is a B&N device, isn't that getting data from the bookseller?

Julie wrote: "However NOOK is on the format list. Since NOOK is a B&N device, isn't that getting data from the bookseller?"

That is undoubtedly left from before the Amazon purchase, but should still apply to Nook editions. There was a time when GR got imports from B&N. Also, B&N is sometimes a publisher, just as Amazon is and I think it would be wrong to not be able to get things from publishers.

Julie wrote: "The manual says that libraries are ok for sources.
Overdrive, Libby and Hoopla are library apps. The books are coming to the reader through their library account. Looking at the title page of an ebook is no different than looking at a print library book in hand..."

Goodreads will have to make a ruling on it before we would be allowed to contradict the current policy. Libraries are a valid source for most things since they obtain information from mostly valid sources. There are also differences in the policies for physical books obtained through subscription even though they are just like any other book. So those particular policies may need to be revised.

Ok. I wasn't thinking about them being a publisher too.

Julie wrote: "While we are on the subject of inconsistant policy. Goodreads is owned by Amazon and other booksellers including B&N are not acceptable data sources. However NOOK is on the format list. Since NOOK is a B&N device, isn't that getting data from the bookseller?"

NOOK format is for ebooks with a pseudo-isbn starting with 294.
An author's website is an acceptable source. Some authors have a list of all available editions including a NOOK edition on their website.

Thanks for the tip. i am learning a lot on this thread.

Hi Tal. You are welcome to reach out to Goodreads for clarification on a policy, and to share your thoughts on how it should change. Feel welcome to email support, and ask for me directly. However, please note that calling out staff in this group is not permitted and repeated instances will lead to omission from the group. As mentioned in this post (under tone), all members of this group are also expected to treat all other members with courtesy.