Dickensians! discussion

Hi Bonnie! 😁 It’s good to see you are still with us.

“I guess I don’t see why he didn’t take that job.”

This is a good example of Nicholas’s sense of pride; he views himself as a gentleman, and has an over-developed sense of self-worth at this point.

You probably remember that when he accepted the position of tutor to the Kenwigs children, this was as a favour to Newman Noggs, who had given him shelter and food in his own poor garret. Noggs is his only friend, and Nicholas wants to pay his own way and help out with the money straightaway, not wait for a salary. Also, since the Kenwigs are looking after the whole house (like caretakers) where they are both living, it would be as well to keep on good terms with them. 🙄

Mrs Kenwigs well knows how lucky she is for Nicholas to agree to tutor her girls - even temporarily. The fact that she can boast about having a gentleman to privately tutor her girls would give her status with the neighbours and within her social circle. She is all about appearances and affected gentility, but would know that she cannot expect this position to be more than temporary. On the other hand, if Nicholas had said no, she might have been rather frosty with him, and made life difficult for Noggs, e.g. reporting to the owner of the house that someone is living there (Nicholas) who is not paying rent - or just generally making their lives difficult. So with extra cash offered straightaway, he said yes.

Nicholas had no intention of making this job permanent - it’s only a few hours a week anyway, isn’t it? He has to find a better one, so accepts what looks like good prospects with an MP, through the employment office. But the alarm bells ring for us, as no salary is stated on the card. 🤔

Then when we see the MP, we learn what a pompous and hypocritical man he is, by his behaviour when on his own, and also how he deals with the committee, talking a lot of flim-flam.

Nicholas asks about his duties, and it is made clear that the MP wants someone to do all his work, and then he would claim all the credit. This might be acceptable if he was taking on an apprentice, but he is not. It’s a dead-end job where Nicholas would be a dogsbody. We saw from his actions at Dotheboys Hall that Nicholas has a very strong sense of fairness - as well as a keen sense of social status - and would not accept that, particularly since the MP is not trustworthy.

So it’s partly Nicholas’s sense of pride, and partly also a sincere belief that if he looks further for a job at the employment offices, he will find a different position as a clerk or similar. He knows his duty as a Victorian man is to provide for his mother and sister, but he is young and full of optimism!

How far are you on now Bonnie?

Actually, when I read the job description, it did not seem like a job anyone would want. I thought that he would be working all day and night. Nicholas himself says the duties are "too great for my powers, however good my will may be". And from what we see of the MP, I am glad that NIcholas decided not to work for him.

Bionic Jean wrote: "How far are you on now Bonnie?"

Through Part VI, Chapter 20

I appreciate several things that people caught and pointed out, like the Cinderella echo of the haircomb falling; different illustrators' portrayals of Kate, locking the tea caddy and more.

I am so indignant about how Uncle Ralph treated his own niece. To think that he would have this 17-18-year-old young woman, from the country, new to London, ride all alone in a public coach?! Even if her mother had accompanied her to the dinner he still should have sent a servant to escort them, and certainly Kate by herself. And to have her "host" his dinner of degenerates, still in mourning, instead of inviting more women. LOW. It is nice that at the end he helped her adjust her shawl and had second thoughts, but he still stuffed her into a carriage to cross the city, by herself.

And reverted to nasty behavior the next day.

Katy - yes - it would have been slave labour working for Gregsbury really, wouldn't it?

Bonnie - you are rightly indignant about Ralph Nickleby! However much he may have regretted the way he treated Kate initially, he "reverted to type" the next day 😡

Good evening, friends! I have not yet finished reading this thread, but I've just realized I forgot to write anything in the previous one before moving on, so I'd like to put down at least something right now, and then go on reading :)

Thank you for your profound comments. I've read all of them and I do appreciate the thought you've put into analyzing these chapters.

Special thanks to Jean, of course, for the detailed info on the original publication details, adaptations, and editions, for scanning the Proclamation, linking the illustrations, and providing such a wealth of additional info. Jean, you're a miracle!

I don't have much to add, really.

I very much agree with what Peter said early on: Dickens's enthusiasm for creating quirky characters is infectious; he was obviously having so much fun with them that we can't not feel it and enjoy them as much as he did.

The inserted stories about the sisters and the baron: I do love eclectics, so I thoroughly enjoyed both the 'sad' story and the 'comic ghost' story. What is their point, besides filling the pages? I sincerely think they give us some welcome relief between the noir of the Dotheboys setting. I do realize we can hardly claim this was the author's manifest design; but then it might be like composing music, some notes may come to the musician before the author is sure about the final harmony.

Parents, now. I think when we say that Dickens hasn't ever fully forgiven his mother Elizabeth for the blacking factory et al., it's easy to forget this was pre-Freud. I mean, one of the last times I tried to do therapy, when the shrink asked me, most kindly, 'But did you feel loved by your parents?', I had to say, 'I'm nearing bloody forty, I don't remember and I couldn't care less.' As a mother, I sincerely accept that everything my child does wrong is my fault, but this wasn't always the case! Whatever the faults of Mrs Nickleby, Kate and Nicholas are nice, untraumatized human beings, and I'm grateful to Dickens for that. I like to think that when he said, 'for I know how all these things have worked together to make me what I am...' (in the same sentence that he said 'but I never afterwards forgot, I never shall forget, I never can forget, that my mother...', he really meant the first part as much as the last part.
(And I honestly can understand how hurtful it is to feel neglected by one's mother!)

Then, Claudia noticed how there is a Fanny and there is a Miss Price in the same scene. They're playing speculation, too, the favourite game of Jane Austen, and the game Austen's Fanny plays at the parsonage. I think Dickens claimed not to have read anything by Austen, but did have her complete works from the publishers, but I'm not sure this is worth verifying. What I'm thinking is, Mrs Nickleby reminds me of Mrs Bennet. I know, I know, Dickens was thinking of his mother, not of Austen's character, this is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, this was probably a type, somebody who was considered witty in her youth, partly because good looks add to one's perceived wit. Then she spends most of her life talking to her children and doesn't notice how her horizons become more and more limited, but then when she finds somebody to talk to, she's hungry for 'adult' conversation and doesn't realize she's lost a lot of her charm. It is more than likely that I understand these ladies more than I'd like to admit.

And the Kenwigses. Are they just filling the pages? I really think not. Jean has mentioned that this novel is preoccupied with class. Gentility and wealth do not obviously go hand in hand. Was it degrading for Nicholas to sit down at a table with John Browdie and his presumably Yorkshire accent, or maybe this here John showed more nobility than Ralph? In Dickens's novels, we often get to see the same situation repeating on different levels and in different spheres. So this family is certainly preoccupied with their standing, in their own way, and they have a somewhat prominent uncle, like Kate and Nicholas do... So in a way, it's the same melody in another octave.

Back to the book now :)

¡Hola Plateresca! ¡Feliz Año Nuevo!
How nice to see you again! Great observations. I am looking forward to reading some more along the way!
Yes, Dotheboys is noir, archi-noir!
Enjoy the book!

Wonderful to hear from you, Plateresca! Enjoyed your comments as you read NICHOLAS NICKLEBY and I will be interested to see how you like this one! I always heave a sigh of relief when returned to Dickens after a break. Happy New Year!

Dear Plateresca, I loved all your comments which as usual made me ponder anew. How I look forward to you joining in "live" next time if possible!

"I think Dickens claimed not to have read anything by Austen, but did have her complete works from the publishers, but I'm not sure this is worth verifying."

Yes, he did claim this at this point, but then he was only 26 so presumably became a convert later. As you rightly say, some of these observations are similar to those of hers, but I think this is completely understandable because of their veracity in describing the originals, who were similar types. Both authors had such a good observational eye for detail, and a superb command of wit.

I agree completely that John is more noble than Ralph! He is more honourable, honest and kind. But it is Dickens who show us this. He is pointing out that Nicholas (especially at the beginning) is a callow youth who is more concerned with class and social standing than manners which were truly noble in the wider sense.

I'm delighted you are "following on" with this group read, as you said, and like Lee, I look forward to more insights from you 😊

Oh well, I wasn't getting notifications from this thread (though I'm sure I checked the 'notify me' box) and thought nobody ever saw what I wrote until I've finished this thread and saw all your lovely replies :) Thank you, friends, it's so nice of you to reply to my belated comments! :)

This installment had so much of the fairytale! I was particularly impressed by the poetic descriptions of Nicholas's hero's journey. His relationship with Smike very much reminded me of Tolkien's Frodo and his Sam... In both pairs, one of the friends is gentlemanly and educated, and the other is simple, but they're both loyal and heroic. I loved it that Jean included the photo of the scenery.
(And, of course, the Fool in the Tarot goes on a journey, and the next card is Le Bateleur, the Juggler, or the Magician ;)).

I agree with Jean, of all the young Charles look-alikes, David C., Pip, and Nicholas N., young Nicholas must be the most likeable one :)

Cratylic names: to me, miss Knag was not so much Miss Nag, as Miss Snag :)
Sir Mulberry Hawk: Dickens must have disliked mulberry; in the Pickwick Papers, (view spoiler)[there's a 'mulberry man', a rather... interesting character (hide spoiler)].
And, speaking of the Pickwick Papers, doesn't Mr. Pugstyles vaguely remind you of anybody? :)

I'm happy we've finally got to the theatre part! I do love how Dickens describes performances (Peter has already mentioned my favourite Mr Waldengraver!).

Good to see you again, and great point about the name "Mulberry" Plateresca ... and indeed all the names 😊

Oh dear GR is a law unto itself, and individual notifications seem to be haphazard. One tip is to look for the red numbers on the list of threads, to see all the new ones.

One thing we can be sure of though is that our comments always end up at the end, wherever we are in the thread when we post them. I look forward to more of yours (and hope I see them fairly soon afterwards!)

Dear Jean, your kindness takes my breath away :)
I am reading all the comments after each chapter and people keep saying that your insights and additional info enhance our understanding of the novel so much, and it is so true!
Thank you.

You are very kind Plateresca, and I do hope you enjoy the rest of the read, and everyone's comments 😊