Clean Reads discussion

I had to put down Wolfcry book 4 in The Kiesha'ra series by Amelia Atwater-Rhodes. I really enjoyed book one but in this book the girl falls in love with and stays with naother girl. I will not read Atwater-Rhodes books anymore because of her choice to make her characters gay.

People have said: The language was "strong" and the sexual content made me "uncomfortable." The words "icky" and "creepy" have been used. Sometimes feelings are hard to express in words, but I'm curious. What do you mean when you use these words? Does uncomfortable mean that there is some sex described in the book, or the sex is outside marriage, or it involves violence, or what? For myself, I don't mind sex in a book if it is tactfully done and involves 2 adults who love each other. But if there is violence, intimidation, verbal abuse, etc., then I don't want to read it. Once I get a nasty or violent image in my head, there's no getting it out again. That's what I want to avoid. Can you help me understand your word choices?

Eileen,

Although everyone is different, it seems to me that most people in this thread prefer not to have any description of sex in their books. That's how I am.

And I'm guessing that "strong" language means language that would make a movie rated R if it was used more than once.

But I am fairly new to the group. Perhaps another member can clarify...

Maybe this will be more than you want Eileen;I am not good at being succint, but I think I am one of the "guilty" parties who use vague wording in my reviews. You are right; it is often difficult to put feelings into words especially among people who feel passionately about what is going into their minds. Because there seems to be a common goal among this growing, diverse group of "Clean Reads" members, to sift through chaff and find prose that is uplifting, I think clarification is important.

So that you can translate my, sometimes, poor choice of words better, I will let you know that written sex of any kind, even discreet or "tactful", would define "uncomfortable" and beyond for me personally. As an LDS woman, I beleive that intimacy in a relationship is so sacred that it should be saved for a man and a woman who are so completely committed to each other that they are bound under a contract of marriage. Then, even within marriage, I believe that intimate part of a relationship to be so private and special, that sharing it, even in words, even ficticiously, cheapens the experience and makes it,ironically less intimate. So, any references or descriptions of a sexual nature make me uncomfortable because I don't feel like I, even as the reader, belong in that setting. As far as "dark" goes, that feeling grows stronger the more selfishly the relationship is being written, sexually or otherwise. Violence or cruelty, anywhere in the foreground of a story, unless it is being directly opposed with overwhelming goodness, and is not descriptive, makes me feel "dark" or "creepy".

On language, I would personally use the term "inappropriate" when "bible terms" are being written into the content of the book. I feel this kind of "profanity" is used out of context, and without authority and does not express intelligent thought, but because it does not connote crude or explicit meaning, I wouldn't categorize it with the term offensive, except in the instance of profaning Deity, which offends me profoundly and on a completely different level than any other "language".

The term "offensive" I would use for any language that was crude, PG type, disrectful references to bodily functions. The term "strong" I would use for anything beyond that (including PG type explitives).

Having clarified all of that, choices are still not easy for me. For instance, Right now I am having a "moral dilemma" over whether I should continue (after 30 completely clean and captivating pages) my reading of "The Book Theif". Profanity (on all of the PG for sure and maybe even PG-13 because of the amount) has all of the sudden been introduced at an alarming rate, but my older sister, who has my same "beliefs", but a different set of sensitivities, says it is the best book she has read in years. So, now I have the decision to weigh the good that goes in, with the bad that goes in and see if one outweighs the other. It has been sitting, unopened again, for a week. Sometimes we have to make hard choices.

I know that we are all so unique in what our minds can cope with and still remain enlightened, so clarification and respect for our unique sensitivities, feelings, and beliefs is vital in a group like this. Every perspective, whether I agree or disagree, helps guide me to those written thoughts that edify me personally. C.S. Lewis said, "We read to know we're not alone". So true. Thanks Tracy for pulling us all together.

Rachel, thanks for the thoughtful post. I just wanted to tell you that knowing your preferences, I would never recommend "The Book Thief" for you. While the overall themes are good, I think you will find the language quite offensive, especially the way one character continually profanes Diety. I haven't ever recommended this book for my book club for that reason.

I also had to put down The Time Traveler's Wife for language and content even though I loved the concept of the story. Others recently - Sea Glass by Anita Shreve (f word only a few pages in - this is always offensive to me, but even moreso when it is used to refer to intimate relations as opposed to being a generic swear), Vanishing Acts by Jodi Picoult(for language & content), My Sister's Keeper also by Jodi Picoult (language).
So glad to see this group!

Maybe I don't belong in this group. I've read most of the books referred to by Andrea,an did not find them offensive. I don't like the "F" word slung around, nor do I like reading the Lord's name taken in vain over and over, but I would have to stay home in the closet to avoid uncomfortable situations in life or books. I hope to learn about life; the good, the bad, and the ugly, and as long there is some redemption for the characters to make the pain worthwhile, I'm not often offended.

Mary wrote: "...I would have to stay home in the closet to avoid uncomfortable situations in life or books...
i LOVE my closet, for just that reason! ;)
i think it's not a matter of all the group members having the same standards exactly. on the whole, the reason we're drawn to cleanreads is for ourselves to be informed on the content of books. i hate to get into a book and then find that it sensationalizes violence or profanity or immorality. we all have our tolerance level, largely based on our life experiences and personal choices. but we can't make good decisions on what to read if we aren't informed. to me, that's what cleanreads is about. some members (*rachel* hem, hem) are super duper sensitive. others, like my sister-in-law (who shall remain nameless), are not so sensitive. we all still want to read worthwhile books, not just fill up our minds with cotton candy or worse.

Mary - I have to agree with you. With some of the contributors to Clean Reads, I have to wonder, "well then, what do you read?" I also know I read books I would never recommend to my LDS book club. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. I actually saw the books I was reading were getting more coarse and stopped reading them. One reason I joined this group was to get ideas on better books to read. What is disheartening to me is that authors I could always rely on to not have graphic sex, violence or language are now filtering that graphic-ness into their books. My guess is that this is due to their publishers saying "this is what the public wants." Well, this "public" doesn't. I just don't want to be limited to children's and young adult books. As a woman with one grown and one nearly grown sons, I want books that make me think and ponder others' experiences. The graphic sex does bother me. But what really bothers me is the increasing amount of nasty swearing in books. Probably a lot easier to throw a "F" word in here or there than come up with a sex scene that fits the book. I work in the world--real people don't swear that much! At least around me they don't...

Sadly, put down "The Book Theif" this week (at Kim's wise encouragement) because I could no longer enjoy the beautiful literary elements because of all the interspersed language.

Put down "Briar Rose" because of casual references to teen pregnancy and homosexuality (and uninteresting writing)

My husband asked me to return the CD of "The Secret Life of Bees" that I checked out for his work commute, after a couple of chapter, because it was profaning Deity. (I haven't read it)

I think someone previously mentioned "The Red Tent". It was raved about by a friend so I picked it up. Didn't get very far before I put it in the trash, Oh, wait actually, it was from the library so I had to just return it, but I wanted to put it in the trash. I was disturbed by the way the biblical patriarchs (believed by at least 3 major religions to be righteous men) were depicted as total perverts into bestiality and who knows what else. Disgusting. Supposedly it is a great story about strong women, pathetic that the author couldn't manage that without trashing/slandering the men. I had no desire to even continue reading.

I just got The Lonely Hearts Club and in just the first few pages encountered teen sex and profanity. True, "nothing happened" but the intent was clear and it soured the story for me. There's too much I'm looking forward to reading to wade through something that may continue to disappoint!

I was listening to "Water for Elephants" audio and had to stop, my husband had even asked me what on earth are you listening to. We were both offended by the amount of cuss words in this book. Authors would make better books if they would leave those out.

I read 212 pages of "Those Who Save Us," hopping it would get better. When I read a book about the holocaust that is what I want it to be about, not sex. So this book was returned to the library due to the sexual content.

I decided to read "The Wilderness," because it dealt with Alzheimer's and WWII, but I had to put it down. I don't care for adultery in a book.

Gwyen wrote: "... the amount of cuss words in this book. Authors would make better books if they would leave those out...." oh, so true!

from a frank sinatra song:
"authors who once knew better words,
now only use four letter words...
writing prose -- anything goes"


louise erdrich's shadow tag is the latest one i've put down for language.

I really have enjoyed these comments. I taught many years at the high school and university levels and have wonderful discussions about books with all kinds of people of varied ages and backgrounds. It is through discussion that we learn what's "good for us". The first thing I want to say is that just because a book is clean, it isn't necessarily "of good report or praiseworthy". I have learned to follow that vague "icky" mention above. Elder Oaks talks about that as a warning to us to leave it alone if if makes us feel "icky". "Icky", to me is Schindler's List and other books that speak of emotional violence. On the other hand books that are totally clean can make me feel icky because when I finish them, I feel mired in the mediocre. I taught high school long enough to rather let bad language go in one ear and out the other, and I know I heard far less than most because I took a stand against it. I can always sort of glance over the sexual because there isn't usually anything I can't see walking across the university campus (though I have been know to suggest to students to "get a room" and then feel guilty for giving that "permission". Now violence, that really make me feel icky. so I avoid that. That makes something offensive to me. What bothers me may not bother another, and vice versa. I like this list and this conversation because of other sources, and now this, I'll know when I don't even need to pick up a book. That will keep less "icky" out of my life.

I completely agree with you Pat. We've been told to search out of the best books and just because one is "clean," doesn't mean it's praiseworthy. I am also very grateful for this group however, because it will help me add clean but praiseworthy books to my library. It's nice being able to pick up a book and know that I won't be experiencing anything crude or vulgar.

sometimes you need a little light and fluffy in your life -- i put those books on my 'pop-fiction' shelf, but i do agree with pat and caitlynn that there are clean books that aren't worth much. the best you can say is that they do you no harm beyond the time you spend reading them, and sometimes at the end of the day there's not much mental energy left for, say, desciphering stream of consciousness or classical allusion. thank goodness for books that are both praiseworthy and clean, eh?

I started reading Love Story by Erich Segal; it was recommended by a friend, who then said maybe it wasn't super clean--she had read it back in high school when she didn't really pay that much attention to what she read. I will be returning it to the library unfinished. It is full of cussing and I just didn't want to waste my time.

I just started " A Reliable Wife" yesterday and I am done with it just a few chapters in. Very explicit sexual references. Too bad because it is getting a lot of rave reviews.

I also put down "Never Look Away." Lots of f words.

New to the forum... thanks for the info everyone!

Candyce wrote: "I just started " A Reliable Wife" yesterday and I am done with it just a few chapters in. Very explicit sexual references. Too bad because it is getting a lot of rave reviews.

thanks for the info. *taking that one off my to-read shelf as we speak*

It is with genuine sorrow that I add "When Will There Be Good News?" by Kate Atkinson to the list of books written by an author who relies on the f word to communicate. I REALLY wanted this book to live up to the expectations I developed from the reviews but the language came early and often and I set the book aside.

I am reading Loving Frank for book club and if I could put it down, I would. It is all about an affair with Frank Lloyd Wright, I am a prude when it comes to extramarital affairs and abandoning your children.

I finished Loving Frank, and I can't call it a Clean Read with all the infidelity and anbandonment, but the sex isn't graphically described and the last quarter of the book is very interesting.

I didn't really enjoy the book and I liked Frank Lloyd Wright better before I read the book and knew about his life and attitudes. But the book did generate a good discussion at book club.

I rarely put books down, but Time Traveler's Wife was the first one! YUCK! A fun story--but totally destroyed by all that unnecessary language and sex. Blah.

Another one...The Seventh Son series by Orson Scott Card. I was SOOOOO disappointed! The first one, and even the second one were good. The third one got VERY risque in places and I almost put it down, but wanted to see what happened to characters I loved. The fourth one was fantastic...then I got to the fifth one. I tried and tried to keep reading (probably shouldn't have because it is now stuck in my head), but in the end, it's still sitting on the shelf with the sad bookmark in it. VERY explicit sex--adultery, fornication, rape...and not only does he describe the acts, but worse--he describes what the people are thinking and their reasonings behind it. NASTY!! I felt dirty and disgusted and thoroughly disappointed. It was really too bad, because I liked what he had started.

FYI: Girl who Played With Fire by Stieg Larsson has a very graphic scene (I don't want to spoil the plot). The series (1st book: Girl With a Dragon Tattoo) is probably way over the top with violence, sex, adultery, and molestation. I actually liked the books, and just glossed over the graphic scenes, but it was shocking.

George R. R. Marin's 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series. I usually like to read fantasy (especially young adult) because it's often very clean and full of good messages about good conquering evil but this one just sickens me. NOBODY is a 'good guy.' And I absolutely draw my line at describing rape. I find it revolting and unnecessary in any novel. I understand it happens during war but I DON'T need to read about it. This book is only for the sick and twisted. I love books but I actually BURNED this one so that nobody ever would find it and pick it up ever again. His books keep climbing the charts and sadly people continually compare it to J.R.R. Tolkien's amazing works but it’s not. It’s the disgusting communications of a jaded man.

A Game of Thrones

Mikel wrote: "George R. R. Marin's 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series. I usually like to read fantasy (especially young adult) because it's often very clean and full of good messages about good conquering evil but ..."

Yeah I gave up on that one too, which is a shame since I'm a big fan of the fantasy/sci-fi genres and it's supposed to be the best fantasy epic ever but has incestuous sex scenes. Another disappointing one was Songmaster by orson scott card, which decided to sweep the main character into homosexual/pedophilic relationships. I'm a huge fan of Ender's Game/Ender's shadow, so this was very sad for me.

Joy wrote: "and here are two vampire books i put down.
1. Sunshine by Robin Mckinley. it's all about sex... it seems to be the end-all and be-all of the plot.
2. The Silver Kiss by Annette Curtis Klau..."

hmmmm, I read sunshine and loved it. didn't feel uncomfortable about anything. the romance just reminded me of the kind in twilight - just enough to leave you really interested but not enough to make you uncomfortable.

Melissa wrote: "I liked The Thirteenth Tale, but can understand why you put it down.

I couldn't finish "Julie and Julia" -- the F-bomb started on page two -- and she used it prolifically! "

Thanks for this review. I was going to read this book but think I'll pass.

Noelle wrote: "hmmmm, I read sunshine and loved it. didn't feel uncomfortable about anything. the romance just reminded me of the kind in twilight - just enough to leave you really interested but not enough to make you uncomfortable.

i remember the main character having sex with her boyfriend, and then with a vampire. definitely not explicit, but certainly not clean. i am a little confused though, as there seem to be two different publishing dates for sunshine, with editing (and a possible re-write??) in between. i've not been able to compare the two -- maybe the content is different?

www.squeakycleanreads.com

My sister and I just launched a new website (not a blog) where READERS rate and reviews books based on their content (books are rated in the areas of violence, profanity, sexual content, mature theme, recommended age group, and more).

We also have a "Squeaky Clean Booklist" which is a list of books that have met strict content requirements and have been voted by readers as being a clean read.

It's a brand-new site, so we're still getting up and going, but we are always having give-a-ways, and need everyone's help in rating the books! I hope you'll all check it out, we hope it becomes a great resource for readers.

~Melissa
[email protected]
http://www.squeakycleanreads.com/give...

Wow Melissa. That looks like such a cool site! It'll be exciting to see it really start running and see a lot more books on there. Thanks for sharing! I'll definately be using it.

Erica,
We've only been launched for 6 weeks and have had an awesome response from readers. We add new books every week, and we hope to see it take off. We really believe that there are millions of people looking for good, clean literature.

Be sure and sign up for our give-a-way:

http://www.squeakycleanreads.com/give...

And you can follow us on Facebook (we have give-a-ways there, too!):

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Weebly/...

We need readers to review the books on the site--this is the main difference from many of the clean reads blogs...readers are able to rate and review the books. So hop on a leave some reviews, or let us know about books you would like to see on the site!

~Melissa

The Kite Runner was one I put down and I waited too long to do so. I was really enjoying the book even after I struggled through the teen boy rape scene , but in the end, recurring F-words did me in. I wish I had put it down sooner to be honest, but it was subtle in how it slowly got worse as it went on.

Freakonomics was another that I put down. It was a good read, but almost forced some profanity in to it where it wasn't needed.

For me, 1 F-word is enough to set the book down. I'm ok with violence in general (war, fighting, etc.) and sexuality if it's not gratuitous, in context, and not graphic. I thought the Twilight books did a pretty good job of walking the line, though book 4 was a little more detail than I needed. I'm ok knowing they had sex, I just don't want to know much more about it.

Two books that have haunted me because I was really enjoying them and had to put them down - The Seamstress, by Frances de Pontes Peebles and The Year of Pleasures, by Elizabeth Berg. The Seamstress is about two sisters in Brazil and is loosely based on historical facts. Two f-bombs on the same page, halfway into the novel did me in. (I was very disappointed)
The Year of Pleasures is about a widow whose husband left behind little slips of paper to remind her of things that were meaningful to them as a couple. Her college roommate comes onto the scene and has a filthy mouth.
Any authors out there - why do such good writers feel the need to put those words in their books???

Hi, I'm new and I think this group is just what I am looking for. I read South of Broad and The Red Tent and felt disgusted most of the time I was reading them. At one point I threw South of Broad across the room. I will probably never read these authors again since I can't trust what they will say.

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (Millennium, #1) by Stieg Larsson

A good friend of mine says: "I'm not sure what rating to give this book. It is an interesting plot with all sorts of intrigue, but I could not stomach the sadistic violence toward women. Had to put it down." She put it on a bookshelf called couldntreadit.

Michele wrote:"Any authors out there - why do such good writers feel the need to put those words in their books???

As an YA author, I can assure you I don't use foul language or sex scenes. Unfortunately, it's become all too common place. There are several answers to your question, Michele.

1) Some authors do it, because that's the way they normally speak. It's no big deal to them.

2) Others, feel they must 'stretch' themselves and dive into characters and situations that take them beyond their comfort zone and totally opposite their nature in order to perfect and expand their craft. YUCK! I don't buy that line one bit!

3) A third group does it because their editor told them to sex it up or make it more edgy. I know this first hand because I turned down several publishing offers if I'd sex up my historical fiction. For years, this prevented me from getting published, but I stuck by my beliefs and now I'm published with a YA fantasy I wrote because my daughter asked me.

Unfortunately, MANY, MANY of the topics objected to in this forum are now firmly entrenched in Young Adult fiction!

Kudos to Melissa for starting her site! It's an uphill battle. I'm constantly running into kids, parents and school librarians who object to the latest trends. I've even have them thank me for writing a good moral bases alternative.

Thanks for the insight, Shawn. Too sad that our society encourages this from good writers. Keep up the good work. I have teenagers and welcome good writers to keep them in books.

Gerald wrote: "Wicked - I picked it up on a whim while at the book store, read the first few pages and couldn't wait to get home on that Saturday and relax by the fireplace. Well, two pages after arriving home, I..."

The play is much lighter and more like the fairy tale than the book. I took my daughters (12 & 15 to the play) but I won't let them read the book.

Shawn wrote: As an YA author, I can assure you I don't use foul language or sex scenes...

Shawn, I, for one, am so thankful for authors like you that will stick to their standards, despite what the "world" is saying you have to do. Thank you for sacrificing those other offers to maintain your integrity. Not only does it give me and my family something clean to read, but a shining example of doing what's right, despite the chance of not succeeding. I'm glad you finally published, and wish you all the best of luck.

Can you please remind us here what books you've written, so we can support you? I'm sure you have put it somewhere, but it seems relevant here as well. :)

Thank you,
Tracy

Tracy wrote: "Shawn, I, for one, am so thankful for authors like you that will stick to their standards, despite what ..."

Thank you for your kind words, Tracy. It is a dog eat dog world out there for authors, including some forums here on GoodReads. Christian authors can be spotted even without saying much, just look for the Cross bullseye on us. :) I'm glad to have come across this thread and for Melissa's website and her efforts.

This is the link to my website.

http://www.allonbooks.com/home.htm

Book 2 is scheduled to be released this fall. I discuss it on my blog and Facebook group page. Both of which can be reached through the site.

Please, poke around the site and you'll find on the Gallery page several videos, one where I explain why I wrote ALLON.

Again, thank you, Tracy.

When I made a commitment to forgo questionable books because of content in 2001, I was worried that my reading would be limited. Thank God, I have read as many if not more in this time period and my to read list seems never to decline.

Margaret, that IS good news.

I just put down Look Me in the Eye: My Life with Aspergers due to language. It also has some disturbing events described that may make you feel uncomfortable.

Shawn, Is there any possibility of publishing your books to Amazon or Barnes & Noble ebook formats? I, for one, would personally contribute to your increase in sales if you did.

Tracy wrote: "Shawn wrote: As an YA author, I can assure you I don't use foul language or sex scenes...

Shawn, I, for one, am so thankful for authors like you that will stick to their standards, despite what ..."

Shawn wrote: "Tracy wrote: "Shawn, I, for one, am so thankful for authors like you that will stick to their standards, despite what ..."

Thank you for your kind words, Tracy. It is a dog eat dog world out there..."

Martha wrote: "Shawn, Is there any possibility of publishing your books to Amazon or Barnes & Noble ebook formats? I, for one, would personally contribute to your increase in sales if you did.

Tracy wrote: "Shaw..."

I've asked my publisher about that but no word yet. I think they signed out to iPad. I'll try again and let you know. This fall book 2 is coming out and I'm eager to put it in ebook format - for the reason you stated.

Just tried "The 13th Tale." This book in particular absolutely frustrated me. I'm looking for a good book for my book club, saw this recommended on book club websites. The frustration comes from the fact that this book is beautifully written. The author's writing flows, paints a word picture that is lovely and pulls you in completely. The kind of book that you kinda have to shake your head to re-enter the real world. But then, about chapter three or four, the content--ugh! Incest, sadism, masochism---yuck and yuck and yuck! Needless to say, I put it down, took it back to the library that very day and it will not be my book club choice.