SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I completely need some people to vent to. I blew through the newest Harry Dresden adventure in 2 days, and I think that I have more questions than answers. I don't want to talk about any spoilers, but I could kill Butcher right now for the cliffhanger at the end of the book. Anyone else want to pipe in? Please note if you are going to talk spoilers for those that haven't read Changes.

the end was interesting. And it does leave more questions than answers.

I look forward to the next instalments. how will harry wiggle free from this one

To quote one of my favorite movies, "I'm not dead yet!"

Speculation for the next book--will Harry and Murphy FINALLY hook up? (Sorry if I'm the hopeless romatic.)

i'm only up to number 4, i read half of Storm Front then went out and bought the rest. so i cant comment to much on Changes but i do enjoy Harry's crazy mishaps. i love jim butchers other series the Codex Alera i breazed thoughs one after the other, although i find myself reading something different between each Dresden book.

*Some small spoilers from Changes, and some definite spoilers from books before Changes*

I couldn't believe the ending! The whole book was unbelievable (in a good way, I mean), but things are really, really changing. I don't know quite how I feel about everything being turned upside-down. I'm really not a fan of a Harry and Murphy relationship. I guess I just don't see them meshing that well. Loved her and Kincaid though. I really want to see her take up the sword.

I have to say the ending reminded me of the ending of season 4 of Farscape. I spent about 5 minutes just yelling "He did NOT just do that!"

The worst part is not knowing when the next book is scheduled to come out.

Well, I haven't read it yet... so thanks for the warning. I'll wait until the next book comes out :)

@Kathy: "Speculation for the next book--will Harry and Murphy FINALLY hook up? (Sorry if I'm the hopeless romatic.) "

Like I said, I haven't read 'Changes' (or the one before it whose name escapes me currently) - and with that caveat I say, I certainly hope not!

Don't get me wrong, I'm usually rooting for characters to get together in books, but I just don't see those two together. Maybe a lots happened that I've missed between them but... in general, I, for one, hope they don't.

There was an article on io9 about this:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...

Pretty cool article. It gives me hope, actually. I'd been getting bored with the series, finding it formulaic and predictable, but I've been told that Changes shakes things up a bit, and I'm glad to see that that seems to be the consensus.

SPOILERS may be here, no specifics, but still...















From the first sentence, even the title, the Harry Dresden universe is all shook up. It won't be the same in the books to follow. When I stopped reading, I went online and for a very long time I couldn't find out if this was the last book. It's not. It's #12 of 23 or 24, depending on where you read.

So, this book wasn't at all what I was expecting, but now I know what I expect can and will and has irrevocably changed.

Kathy wrote: "Speculation for the next book--will Harry and Murphy FINALLY hook up? (Sorry if I'm the hopeless romatic.)"

I certainly hope not. I think it's refreshing to see a male/female friendship grow without having it turn into a romance.

I just finished Small Favor. Changes is waiting in the wings.

I think a romance would spoil it. In addition, Harry likes karen to much to chance it.

Spoilers















Look what happened with his last relationship. One thing about the end of this book. Harry sees his new "situation" as a just punishment. But I think harry will emerge from this as a super hero.

His new master is not going to be able to handle him. IMHO

I'm not convinced that Harry and Murphy should hook up, but really, Harry should have a few minutes of love in a relationship where his GF is not a vamp. I also wonder along those lines about Molly. For those who read Changes already, do you remember two separate times discussing Molly as a woman and not as an apprentice?

This was an excerpt from a posting after the i09 article referenced above:

"The ending made me both very excited and very angry, but, having heard Butcher speak at last year's Turn Coat release, I know that Harry can't stay as is for very long, as Butcher has plans for at least 8 more books after this one, and three more collections after that.

"For those who can't wait until next year's "Ghost Story" to see what happens, a book collecting the short stories from anthologies like "Many Bloody Returns" and "My Big Fat Supernatural... (insert event here)" will be released in October of this year, and it will include a short story told from Murphy's perspective, taking place in the 45 minutes after Changes ended. Relief is in sight!

"[Plus, Butcher himself says "it's not a cliffhanger if you know what happens..." which could be him torturing us with some "mine is an evil laugh," or it could be suggesting that we all know where this is going...:] "

Kevinalbee wrote: I think harry will emerge from this as a super hero.

I think Harry's been one for a long time. (He's had a graphic novel for over a year, right? That's gotta be one of the prerequisites of hero-hood.) The problem is convicing Harry of his heroism.

Personally, I think someone is "helping" him not have to be the White Knight. If he's "dead" the power and responsibility will have to pass to another and he's off the hook.

He may hook up with Murphy some time, but I doubt it. The tension is too good and if they ever do get together, that aspect will be gone. Just like "Moonlighting" when Bruce Willis and Cybil Sheppard got together, it ruined the show. 'Course no one is probably old enough to remember that one! LOL

Alan wrote: "Personally, I think someone is "helping" him not have to be the White Knight. If he's "dead" the power and responsibility will have to pass to another and he's off the hook.

He may hook up with Mu..."

I think you mean "Winter Knight" but I understand your point. However, I don't think it will be that easy. Mab waited for Harry for at least the last 5 or 6 years. She is patient and won't relinquish Harry as her servant the near moment she finally gets him.

Personally I WANT to see the full power of Harry as the Winter Knight. He barely scratched the surface with his little icicle attack last book, and I'm waiting for the full summoned blizzard and yeti bodyguards.

Yes, Winter... what I get for posting half asleep : )

Changes is by far his best work to date IMHO, loved every single minute of it. But the waiting until the next book is gonna kill me. There is supposed to be a short story called "Afterward" that's gonna come out in Oct./Nov. which is supposed to take place 45min. after the end of Changes. Hopefully that will answer a few of the questions we have.

It used to be that you could see where Butcher was heading with most of his books, but Changes completely changed that for me. :-)

Alan wrote: "Personally, I think someone is "helping" him not have to be the White Knight. If he's "dead" the power and responsibility will have to pass to another and he's off the hook.

He may hook up with Mu..."

I think that's a creative idea, but I would hate if that were actually the case. It just seems like a cop-out. He took up the mantle and he should have to stick with it, instead of using it for what he needed and then ditching it. It would kind of cheapen Changes for me if that happened. And I want to see Harry in his winterous glory too.

spoiler alert.








There is always a loophole and harry is the master of finding them.

Look at how he ended the red court with their own spell.

kevinalbee wrote: spoiler alert.








There is always a loophole and harry is the master of finding them.
That's completely true.
BUT, Harry is also honorable and made a promise. I believe when he gets over his slight case of dead, in one of Miles Vorkosigan's cryochambers?, he will serve for a time as Winter Knight. Then he'll get out of it.

Yes, there is always a loophole, but IMO, the only way Harry is going to get out of this one is to kill off Mab. I would rather have Mab than her insane daughter Maeve on the throne, though. Since Harry has a few friends over at Summer, maybe there will be some sort of coup de gras.

What I want to know is who will end up as the Knights of the Cross. My money is that Murphy will end up with Esparacchius, but any guesses about Amoracchius?

I was reading a ton of PNR smut Roane Fur For All and then immersed myself in weird Russians and myths retold The Sacred Book of the Werewolf, The Helmet of Horror: The Myth of Theseus and the Minotaur and The Penelopiad: The Myth of Penelope and Odysseus. May have been too big a jump, my head is still spinning! I have the philip k dick book on order still, everyone around here must be reading it also

Mike wrote: "Changes is by far his best work to date IMHO, loved every single minute of it. But the waiting until the next book is gonna kill me. There is supposed to be a short story called "Afterward" that'..."



***** spoilers **** for Changes

Changes completely threw me off, I've always loved Harry. I love the way he's developed, he's never been so cocky and sure of himself that he acted better than anyone, and his wicked sense of humor always saved a grim situation. remember when he told Morgan he was sitting around with a dirty pic and some hand lotion?! "yeah, I'm a bad bad boy". but....
man, he's finally about to shag Murphy, and he ends up slipping under the cold water full of holes?! I finished the book around 2am, couldn't sleep afterwards.

I keep trying to think of who could be behind the cliffhanger craziness, but I just keep running into a wall. There just aren't many people who knew where Harry was so it either has to be one of his pals or it has to be someone that isn't really in the picture right now. Either way, there just isn't enough info to figure it out.

For me, this was perhaps the best in the series, though I have loved them all. Butcher literally turned everything upside down. I can't wait until the next book after that cliffhanger. Just ridiculous.

I wouldn't be surprised if his insane godmother is behind this. Of course, she would do it to "to protect him". If it is her, I have no idea how she plans to bring him back. Assuming she has planned that far ahead.

Mike wrote: "I keep trying to think of who could be behind the cliffhanger craziness, but I just keep running into a wall. There just aren't many people who knew where Harry was so it either has to be one of hi..."

definitely the best! he had just come into his own powers, and had such a handle on who he was and what he was capable of. Life honestly seemed so straightforward at this point. Maybe this is going to be a way to get Harry our from under the fairy bitch though... hmmm

tj, I was thinking the same thing...having vanquished pretty much all the immediate issues, it's either Lea or Marcone, and no reason for the latter...

just finished about an hour ago. goddamn this one was great, I was sobbing enough that the dogs had to come check on me several times throughout.

and wow, the only person who didn't show up was Lasciel...

SPOILERS LOTS AND LOTS OF SPOILERS
















Honestly i hate it when an author kills a popular character and then resurrects them. So I'm rooting for Harry to stay dead. I think it would be a catalyst for Murphy to pick up a Sword and for Molly to toughen up. Plus the reference to the death curse Harry got from a Fallen would support all this. although the loophole is there that since he is 'dead' the winter mantle should pass to another like Alan said. My first impression was that Kincaid was the trigger man back when I read it, but looking back i think Lea is a good bet.

Philip wrote: "Honestly i hate it when an author kills a popular character and then resurrects them. So I'm rooting for Harry to stay dead."

Hmm. I'm not sure you could call it the Dresden Files if there was no Harry, but I like the rest of the characters so much, I would probably still read it.

There's no way he's going to stay dead, but I really hope it isn't just a loophole to get him out of Winter's grasp. That would be took easy...or may just too quick.

Mike wrote:Hmm. I'm not sure you could call it the Dresden Files if there was no harry."

Ahh but there is still a living Dresden by the name of Margaret Angelica Dresden.

Mike wrote:Hmm. I'm not sure you could call it the Dresden Files if there was no harry."

Ahh but there is still a living Dresden by the name of Margaret Angelica Dresden.

I just finally got a chance to read Changes. Wow.

SPOILERS TO FOLLOW







It seems fairly obvious to me that Harry isn't dead. It is, after all, only about the halfway point in The Dresden Files. If Harry's dead, it wouldn't be the Dresden Files, it would be The Murphy Files or The Friends of Harry Dresden Files or whatever. And no, I don't buy the idea of it shifting to his daughter. Butcher has said since before he had any idea that Harry had a daughter that there were going to be a whole bunch more books. It's unthinkable that Harry is dead. If Harry dies, it will be at the end of the last book, which won't be for a while now.

It also seems like too much of an easy way out of the bargain with Mab, so I tend to to doubt that we'll have something like Harry "dying" and being rescuscitated and bingo he's his own man again.

I did wonder, though, in the scene between Mouse and Lea, if we were given a hint of competing claims? Mouse says something to the effect of "he didn't get me, I got him" *and* seemed ready to throw down with a powerful faerie over what seemed to be a fairly minor joke on Lea's part (what, like she wasn't going to return them to human form?). Again, I don't expect this to be resolved in the next book or two, but just like Harry got himself free of the influence of Lasciel, I would expect him to find a way through this too--eventually--though perhaps not before he's been forced to compromise some more of his principles.

We'll see--I agree with the article that it was refreshing to see Harry, who always seems to find a way to avoid compromising his principles and still save the day, forced onto the horns of an insoluable dilemma. I was just commenting to my wife in another context that it's kind of aggravating to me to see in a movie or a novel a situation where, for instance, a character has to choose between saving the world and saving the man/woman/child he/she loves and saving the world and inevitably he finds a way to choose both, usually by choosing the individual and the world getting saved anyway. This wasn't the situation here, because really Harry had to save his daughter to save what amounted to the world (it's hard to imagine the White Council in its current shape surviving the loss of Harry and Ebenezer) but it usually has been the case the Dresden has been able, in one way or another, to have his cake and eat it too. That wasn't the case in Changes, and though it's rough on Harry, it's good for the series, IMO.

nah, Harry's so not dead.

there's theoretically a short story collection coming out in September, wherein we get the next 45 minutes from Murphy's POV. I'm assuming it'll be her fishing him out of the lake and off to the hospital, so he can wake up in the hospital from some coma-dreams in the next book. and then the next book is him perhaps solving his own murder?

can you tell I'm not expecting any relief from this cliffhanger any time soon?

Tell my about Dresden files. I have been looking at these for some time, but have never read one.

Ryan, Kernos and anyone who hasn't read the whole series,

If you care about spoilers, I hope you haven't read the rest of this thread!

James Marsters who played Spike on Buffy, reads the audio book versions of these books, which many say is the best way to get into the series.

I read the first 3 books and I just don't get it. They weren't boring or anything, but I really don't have any incentive to read the next one. The only reason why I even made it to book 3 is because I wanted to see why this series was so popular.

Flint wrote: "I read the first 3 books and I just don't get it. They weren't boring or anything, but I really don't have any incentive to read the next one. The only reason why I even made it to book 3 is becau..."

Sorry to hear that Flint. Every time I finish one, I can't wait to read the next. For me, it's all about the characters. Harry is awesome of course, but the supporting characters really drive it home. That, and I suppose the super fast paced plot doesn't hurt either. I always go through them really quickly.

Julia wrote: "James Marsters who played Spike on Buffy, reads the audio book versions of these books, which many say is the best way to get into the series. "

I recently ran across audio book versions of the first three books. The narrator is excellent.