The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the historical fiction discussion of Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian.

This is the reading assignment for week four - (May 24th, 2010 to May 30th, 2010)

Chapter Four - pages 135 - 170

This is the second historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book was kicked off on May 3rd.

This discussion is being led by assisting moderator of historical fiction - Elizabeth S.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

This thread opens up Monday, May 24th for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Patrick O'Brian

Finally some action this week!

We begin Chapter 4 with the Sophie rehearsing manning battle stations and firing the cannon. We are given detailed descriptions of what is involved in firing a 4-pound ball from a ship. Jack is rather depressed at the poor performance of his men. While practicing repeatedly in the hopes of improving their times, Stephen asks why two ships are so close together. Jack is amazed to see that an Algerian quarter-galley has boarded the last ship he in the convoy his is protecting, the Norwegian cat. Jack hurries to the rescue. They engage the Algerines, and Stephen shows his abilities as a physician and surgeon as men are injured on the Sophie. The cat is in the control of the Algerines and sails in a different direction of the galley. Jack figures the galley wants to be overtaken and, making a tough decision, decides to focus on recovering the cat. Dillon is sent with a boarding party who succeed in retaking the Norwegian ship. At first they think the Norwegians were all thrown overboard, meaning the taking of the cat would be a prize. Jack carefully computes what portion of the spoils will be his. But then Dillon discovers the Norwegians hidden on the ship, meaning it is not a prize.

Later, we follow Jack as he goes to meet with Lord Keith, Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean. Jack discovers that his old friend, Queeney, is the Admiral's new wife. It is her influence that was likely the reason for Jack's promotion, not so much his abilities. The Sophie is removed from convoy duty and assigned to cruise along the coasts of Spain and France, with the hopes of making prize-money. The men are pleased with how well Stephen has done sewing them up after injury, and are especially impressed with successful brain surgery on the main gunner. All in all, things are looking up for the men of the Sophie.

My favorite part of humor this week was how disappointed everyone was when they discovered that the Norwegians survived. It is one of those things that sounds so terrible, but really makes a lot of sense if you think about it!

Again, much that is explained for the benefit of Stephen is also for the benefit of the reader. For example, the difference between the term master and the term master and commander are explained to Stephen on page 137. And it helps us understand better the title of the book.

It's really interesting to me to look at the craft of writing in this chapter. O'Brien has done a great job of using the character to Steven to educate his readers who are probably just a green.

As an Army Vet, the new commander putting his crew through drills brought back a lot of memories. Every time there was a change of command you had to prove yourself all over again.

Enjoyable chapter. I agree with the humor references. I smiled when Jack started doing the math, then stopped, then wrote it much smaller.

I also liked the bit about the crews disappointment on learning that the Norwegian crew survived and that there would be no prize money.

Before that I liked this bit when Jack was deciding on trying the gun crews on a live practice:

"....The barrels held forty-five pounds, so the Sophie would nearly empty one with each double broadside. 'But even so,' he went on, 'I think we can have a couple of rounds: God knows how long these charges have been lying in the guns. Besides,' he added in a voice within his inner voice - a voice from a far deeper level, 'think of the lovely smell.'

Every serviceman always wants to let fly with a few rounds to try out their new weapons!

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I also liked the bit about the crews disappointment on learning that the Norwegian crew survived and that there would be no prize money.

Before that I liked this bit when Jack was deciding on t..."

I was under the impression that powder used in practice was paid for by the captain out of his own pocket. So Jack's decision to actually fire the guns means a lot financially to him. Gunpowder paid for in battle was paid for by the navy.

Patricrk wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I also liked the bit about the crews disappointment on learning that the Norwegian crew survived and that there would be no prize money.

Before that I liked this bit when ..."

It is an interesting policy of the British Navy to restrict the number of rounds that they would pay for to practice using the cannon. As well as being fun, we also know how much constant practice can add to the effectiveness of the crew in battle.

Patricrk wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I also liked the bit about the crews disappointment on learning that the Norwegian crew survived and that there would be no prize money.

Before that I liked this bit when ..."

Interesting point Patricrk, you would think that Jack's exercising the crew in the gun drill with powder and shot might be an investment in the future. A good, fast & efficient gun crew might be the deciding factor not only in saving your own ship and crew but winning a prize with all the financial benefits that brings.

Did anyone else enjoy the conversation between Jack and Stephen before the Sophie commenced action against the corsair:

"....'my dear sir, do you choose to go below or should you rather stay on deck? Perhaps it would divert you to go to into the maintop with a musket, along with the sharpshooters, and have a bang at the villains?'
'No, no, no,' said Stephen. 'I deprecate violence. My part is to heal rather than to kill; or at least to kill with kindly intent. Pray let me take my place, my station, in the cockpit'. "

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Did anyone else enjoy the conversation between Jack and Stephen before the Sophie commenced action against the corsair:

"....'my dear sir, do you choose to go below or should you rather stay on ..."

I smiled at that exact passage myself. You have to realize your limitations. I'm sure at about that point Steven wanted to get to something he knew he could do, but he's already starting to pick up on some of the humor of people who spend long hours at close quarters.

We are really enjoying ourselves pointing out the various bits of humor in each chapter. :) Lots of fun.

On the issue of who pays for the gun powder, can anyone find a definitive answer? It is one of those things where I can see the logic both ways. Yes, having the navy pay for practicing would theoretically make more expert gunners. But with an unlimited supply for practice, some might be used just for the fun of it without any attempt to practice speed or aim. I wonder how much gun powder would a ship normally carry, in terms of how many shots? If there were no cost to the captain or crew to use as much powder in practice as they feel like, would there be a risk of using so much that they don't have enough for a battle?

We should remember from the first chapter or two how much a captain/officer is expected to buy out of his own pocket. To pay for practice powder surely isn't that much different.

I was wondering about the cost of practice firing the cannons too, but I was more thinking about the cannon balls themselves. I can't imagine the balls were cheap, and even if they were, the logistics of hauling them onboard and storing them would make me keep a close eye on how many were being used for practice. But as Rick said, you want your crew to feel comfortable using the guns before having to use them in actual battle. War sure is expensive!

As usual, there was some funny stuff in this chapter. Once again I wish I had the book with me here at work so I could quote from it. One of my favorite lines was when Stephen asked Jack if he didn't like money, and how enthusiastically Jack replied that he loved money. It was written so well. Anyone have the exact quote handy?

Don wrote: "I was wondering about the cost of practice firing the cannons too, but I was more thinking about the cannon balls themselves. I can't imagine the balls were cheap, and even if they were, the logis..."

Hi Don, is this it:

'Are you very attached to money?' asked Stephen.
'I love it passionately,' said Jack, with truth ringing clear in his voice. 'I have always been poor, and I long to be rich.'

Here is another funney section from chapter four:


"......'This is the young man I told you about Admiral,' said Queeney, patting poor pale Jack's black stock into place and waving a ring at him. 'I used to give him his bath and take him into my bed when he had bad dreams.'
This might not have been thought the very best possible recommendation to a newly-married admiral of close on sixty, but it seemed to answer. 'Oh,' said the admiral. 'Yes. I was forgetting. Forgive me. I have such a power of captains, and some of them are very mere rakes....."

That's the one, thanks Rick!

The exchange with Queeney is great too. This really is turning out to be a very fun book.

You know, when I first read it I enjoyed the subtle humor. But I never would have described it as a funny book. But now I'm realized I missed a number of good humor moments the first time around.

Part of it, of course, is this seems to be a good group of people with the right kind of a sense of humor for this book. :)

So what do you all think of the battle?

For me, it was refreshing to get some action. I felt like we are finally getting somewhere in the book, rather than laying the groundwork. To some extent, I think I liked the battle because it was closer to the kind of stories told in other sea-yarns I've enjoyed.

It was interesting to me, after all we read about how closely packed the Sophie was with its men, to think about sending a boarding party to another ship. And that the boarding party might be required to sail that other ship all the way to safe harbor. How much more vulnerable would such a ship be, both the captured ship and the ship that sent the boarders. Which is part of why the story about Dillon and the Dart is so useful. We see just what a small party of men on a ship can do.

Elizabeth S wrote: "So what do you all think of the battle?

For me, it was refreshing to get some action. I felt like we are finally getting somewhere in the book, rather than laying the groundwork. To some extent,..."

We can see how what a small party of men on a ship can do; as long as they are British!

Rue Brittania and all. :)

I remember that the first time I read this, I was shocked by the concept of "prize money." Seemed like licensed piracy!

The exchange between Jack & Steven about the former's love of money is quite revealing. Jack is such a simple guy!

Mary Ellen wrote: "I remember that the first time I read this, I was shocked by the concept of "prize money." Seemed like licensed piracy!

The exchange between Jack & Steven about the former's love of money is qu..."

Hi Mary Ellen, 'prize money' was a very important incentive for captains and crews during this period; "In order to reward and encourage sailors' zeal at no cost to the Crown". Below is some information that you might find interesting covering this aspect of naval history:

Prize Money

Privateer

And my understanding of the times is that countries were often not technically at war with each other, but did encourage "licensed piracy" as a way of hindering their enemy's wealth. Not to mention increasing their own.

Of course if the countries were technically at war, capturing another country's wealth would be even more blatantly attempted. Giving the capturing ship prize money for the capture would be somewhat similar to the sales commissions many modern salespeople receive.

Helpful links, Aussie Rick. Thanks!