Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire discussion

sooooooooooo--she was fighting for what she believed in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

exactly. wouldn't you do the same?

yeah, and SO DO U!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! fight for 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ooooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay then..............................................................................................................

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Fadhilah wrote: "Then it wouldn't be fair"

for what? fighting for what you believe ?hat's what Hermione did, and look what at the results. It helped the lves of house elves

thats exactly wat i said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AWESOME

yeah

HEHE. WE WON

yessiree, errrrrrrrrrr yesma'amee rather....................

she didn't force! she asked over and over again and they said yes on their own accord. She asked Hagrid, he said no, did she force him to join? i dont think so

i agree with everyone who said Hermione was simply trying to help although she got a little fanatical about it. it did not annoy me, however - it merely served as an amusing aspect (as it got many hilarious comment from Ron) and sometimes, yes, exasperating. but you realise house-elf situations actually got better when she worked in Department of magical creatures? that shows her aim was right and good, because despite the fact house-elves like work, i'm quite certain they do not like to be beaten and treated like "vermin" (as Dobby accurately puts it)! her overenthusiasticness is just another example of Hermione's nature - i definitely do not think it's something that needs to be read into so deeply that she ends up being condemned for it.

Crazy Uncle Ryan wrote: "Time for me to do a little rant. In this book Hermione organizes a group called S.P.E.W. (The Society for the Promotion of Elfish Welfare) in which she advocates that house elves ought to be free, ..."

I think you are missing the point. Namely that Rowling is satirizing the 'cultural elite' with this facet of Hermione's character. Notice how no-one in the Wizarding world takes her seriously.

In general, Hermione is slightly arrogant. Not to the extreme. In fact, maybe she deserves to be a little bit arrogant because she's just so much smarter than everyone else. I love Hermione, but she does have that flaw.

Hermione WAS fighting for what she thought was right, but i DO kinda think she was forcing people. I dont think SPEW was that significant. At first i thought it was funny, but then it got, like, annoying. In the fourth book, Hermione was really dramatic.

I think it was there for humor. I also think it was meant to show that despite her intelligence, Hermione is still a fourteen year old who doesn't entirely understand the complexity of the wizarding world and how different it is from the muggle world. When I was her age I had a lot of ideas about how to make the world a better place, and looking back I see that I was naive and I didn't quite understand just how complicated things were.

I think her heart was I the right place, but she was young and went about trying to help in the wrong way.

Fadhilah wrote: "and the only reason Ron and Harry said yes was because they wanted her to stop, not because they agree"

no beacuse they were true friends!

Fadhilah wrote: "She said every time, bothering people. When people told her to stop for a while she didn't. If she told them more kindly, more nicely without that bossy, quick voice, then maybe MORE people would j..."

she didn't bother and annoy people! it was her choice!

artis rite, fadhilah

no, im doing that because thats wat i think

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Melissa wrote: "no, im doing that because thats wat i think"

Yah!

Fadhilah wrote: "@Arti: No, Ron and Harry signed the paper (or whatever, that SPEW stuff) because they wanted her to stop talking about it. It was mentioned (I think, I forgot).

and like you said, she didn't both..."

AND, cause they're her friends. Hermione's allowed to annyo her friends. Harrya dn Ron do it all the time

exactly, thats kinda the truth

they R E A L L Y bothered HER

Fadhilah wrote: "they were 'making fun'. Yeah that's bothering. and annoying, but in a kind of 'playing' way.
But Hermione? She annoyed them, wont stop talking until they pretend to agree with her."

Sometimes that's part of the wonderful world of friendship.

Do you know how many books I've read just so my friends will stop hounding me to read them? Hundreds. I've hated most of them, but I read them because it's preferable to listening to my friends go on and on about how much I'm missing by not reading them.

Sometimes, being someone's best friend means doing things you don't want to do, not because you love them, but you want them to shut the hell up and know the fastest way to make them do that is to just agree with them.

Fadhilah wrote: "they were 'making fun'. Yeah that's bothering. and annoying, but in a kind of 'playing' way.
But Hermione? She annoyed them, wont stop talking until they pretend to agree with her."

no! sometimes they annoy to get wat they want too. like for practicing Quidditch instead of studying for OWLS. And lots of other times too

she wants the best for them

DUH! IT HELPS THEM STICK TOGETHER! AND ANYWAYS, IT'S NOT FOR THEM ITS FOR THE ELVES. DOBBY JOINED!

UGH!!!! IM GETTING THE BOOK AND READING THAT PART AND SEEING THAT SHE DIDNT FORCE THEM!!!!!!

wow, Arti take a deep breath and step away from the computer

okay. +steps away and takes a breathe+

good girl

okay. what i'm saying, is that she proposed the idea. Harry and Ron didn't say anything. Hermione showed badges Harry and Ron read them. She told them about it and then asigned them jobs. Did they say "No I don't want to join? Nope!"

well i have all the books at home

Fadhilah wrote: "Well good for you.

I think SPEW is about 'belief', like opinions...and Hermione was kinda pushing it. And well of course Dobby joined. Just saying"

Dobby joined cause he knew how it hurt when some house elves were being treated. The ones at Hogwarts were treated kindly by Dumbledore, so thye wouldn't know.

NO SHE WAN'T!!!!!

NOT ACCORDING TO J.K. ROWLING

I LIKE CAPS.

and this isn't about Hermione, it's about SPEW!

I don't have that particular book on hand, but if I remember correctly, Hermione was just leaving caps around for elves to take IF some of them wanted to be free. Most of them didn't. I actually took it as analogy to the fact that a lot of slaves in the South didn't want to be free because they were just comfortable being slaves. It goes to the larger concept that you can't force people to choose freedom, although you should definitely show them at least it's an option. Hermione was bossy and annoying A LOT in the series (not surprisingly J.K Rowling said that in the future Hermione ends up working for the Ministry- where she can make laws and, well, boss people around). However, this to me wasn't one of those times.

Fadhilah wrote: "okay then back to SPEW"

SPEW is a good thing!

I think she should've at least asked the elves before doing that

I think she should've at least asked the elves before doing that

Also, people in abusive relationships should be allowed to stay with people who abuse them if they want. And shouldn't slaves who've been raised from birth as slaves and possibly tortured into submission be allowed to stay as they are? Hermione's "annoying" campaign is a clear parallel with such situations. I'm sure the people who first started campaigning against slavery were just like her, and now we no longer have any slaves!

I think it's also a broader parallel to everyone in the series who was in denial about the threat of Voldemort being back because it would require them to take responsibility and DO something. Being free requires work, but people prefer to stay comfortable, as a rule, even when they are being abused or threatened.

Ethan wrote: "I think she should've at least asked the elves before doing that"

why should she have to ask the elves?

I think you're right about her trying to tell the elves what they SHOULD want. She didn't seem to care...even seemed a little confused about why in the world they WOULDN'T want what she thought was best for them.

I find that a nice parallel to modern society in which the government and intellectual, monetary, or famously elite tell the rest of us "poor ignorants" what we really need/want.

Now, age could excuse Hermione... youth is always passionate about their causes and not always as able to temper their passion or direct it in the right way. However, most of the people in the government or other 'elites' are middle age or older and might be expected to know better. Besides, just because I don't agree with their way of thinking does not mean that "if I were just a little more educated, if I only KNEW..." I would change my mind... this seems to be what Hermione was saying of the elves...the same feel I get when I talk to certain people. As if, well, we just don't know what's best for us, go play little child and let the grown-ups decide your futures. *eyeroll*

Arti wrote: "Ethan wrote: "I think she should've at least asked the elves before doing that"

why should she have to ask the elves?"


Because. If she asks the elves, this movement is truly about THEIR wants, needs, and well-being.
If she does NOT ask the elves, it is a social movement with the elves as a figurehead. It is not really about the elves, it is instead about correcting a perceived need in society.

One might argue that the needs of the elves and society coincide, but the elves should have a say in their own futures, then. Additionally, the MOTIVE of the organization is different: the betterment of elves, or the change of society.

Can someone who actually has the book confirm what Hermione was specifically doing? I remember her leaving caps around, so elves who wanted freedom could pick them up. She wasn't forcing them to take clothes. I know she talked a lot and wore buttons, but did she DO anything else? Because if not, she didn't need to ask elves to just offer them a choice of freedom.